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Schadenfreude vs. Mudita

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
A pretty arbitrary and small sample size.
But even then we still have the moral Schadenfreude when we have it in imaginary situations. We feel Schadenfreude when Hans Gruber gets dropped from the Nakatomi building even though the death isn't real. We laugh when Wile E. Coyote gets harmed by his own ACME contraption.
To get to the really immoral Schadenfreude we'd have to exclude all trivial cases (slapstick) and view retributional Schadenfreude with a grain of salt.
Dr Grande has explained in that video that those are not examples of Schadenfreude, since the harm is not real.

Schadenfreude is a very essential component in criminological studies about the perpetrators' psyche.

Let's give an example that is not included in the penal\criminal sphere.
A friend is envious of another friend. She pretends to be friends with her. But she talks about her behind her back, she is mischievously phony to her. And when the latter falls ill and die in agony, she enjoys that.
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
Dr Grande has explained in that video that those are not examples of Schadenfreude, since the harm is not real.

Schadenfreude is a very essential component in criminological studies about the perpetrators' psyche.

Let's give an example that is not included in the penal\criminal sphere.
A friend is envious of another friend. She pretends to be friends with her. But she talks about her behind her back, she is mischievously phony to her. And when the latter falls ill and die in agony, she enjoys that.
So, for this discussion, Schadenfreude is basically psychological sadism where the pain isn't caused by the sadist himself?
Yes, I'd agree that that is immoral and pathologic. And I can see how this develops from the moral or amoral Schadenfreude and how it can lead to sadism.
What I don't see is any relation to religion. I see a relation between religion and harsh punishment, though.
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
I don't feel happy at the misfortune of others. I don't feel sympathetic if their misfortune is a result of the willful choices they made.
In cases where I don't know the circumstances that caused the misfortune, which is most of the people on the planet, I'm mostly neutral. Neither happy about their misfortune nor sympathetic.

Otherwise, I am happy when I see others have a happy life. i.e. no sympathy needed.
:cool:

You described it very well how I also feel about this
 

stvdv

Veteran Member: I Share (not Debate) my POV
Hello, guys. I would like to analyze the psychological, cultural, religious and anthropological patterns that characterize these two opposite sentiments that are hidden in the recesses of human psyche.

First of all, Schadenfreude. A word that literally means "joy for the damage, the disgrace (of others)". That is, an individual is happy when others are unhappy. Or he is unhappy when others are happy (as a consequence). It is probably the psychological scheme that results in sadism.

Secondly, mudita. A Sanskrit word that means to define the sentiment of joy for others' happiness. That is the individual is happy when others are happy. Or that their own happiness is directly proportional to other people's happiness. As a consequence, the person is sympathetic towards the others who are unhappy or suffer.
I guess Schadenfreude is caused by a damaged emotional body, so they better solve their inner discrepancies and become truly happy
 

Truth in love

Well-Known Member
A few thoughts. Brain damage as a result of trauma is well documented. This can causes great deal of issues including an impairment in the emotion and empathy system.


On another note we have the capacity for both good and evil. We can build or destroy, heal or hurt. Satan tries to get us to destroy. God tries to get us to build. We got to choose who we will work for.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Hello, guys. I would like to analyze the psychological, cultural, religious and anthropological patterns that characterize these two opposite sentiments that are hidden in the recesses of human psyche.

First of all, Schadenfreude. A word that literally means "joy for the damage, the disgrace (of others)". That is, an individual is happy when others are unhappy. Or he is unhappy when others are happy (as a consequence). It is probably the psychological scheme that results in sadism.

Secondly, mudita. A Sanskrit word that means to define the sentiment of joy for others' happiness. That is the individual is happy when others are happy. Or that their own happiness is directly proportional to other people's happiness. As a consequence, the person is sympathetic towards the others who are unhappy or suffer.

Nice thread.

Muditha simply means Joy or happiness. I mean in Pali. Mudithasahagatha means 'with happiness'. udithasahagathena chethasa means 'with thoughts filled with happiness'. The Muditha in the Buddhist philosophy actually is a reference. to "with thoughts filled with happiness" which is not the etymological meaning but a philosophy described by one word.

Schadenfreude is called Shamaathah in Arabic. And it's very interesting that you took the Muditha and "Guilty Joy" in the same post. They are the actual polar opposites.

Muditha is something like a joy or "The Joy" that is not interested in anything. Am I explaining it right? For example, Maithri or Metta is an aggressive joy. A proactive or active joy or happiness. You project it to someone else, as in the story of Angulimala where the Buddha would go and project his Metta to him to calm him down, change him and save him. Same with the Nalagiri tusker. But Muditha is uninterested joy.

You are absolutely right. There is a sign of Empathy in both of this. But does not really mean that you sympathise with someone's suffering.

In the Islamic tradition Shamaathathun or Schadenfreude had lengthy philosophical discussion. Even in a Jewish prayer in the interpretation or commentary of Philo's works, there was a part that helps avoiding Schadenfreude. Just that the word may not be one word but an explanation. In the arabic language this word seems to have been invented at some point purely for the discussion. The discussions seems to have been on whether this is a phenomena or nature? Is it diabolical or ultimate? Is it ontologically evil? Well, this is the same discussion happening in western discourse. Exactly the same thing.

You spoke of sympathising with others' suffering. See, one person can be very sympathetic with a lot of people's suffering, but be joyful in some other people's suffering. This is also moral question. Is it immoral? Well, hell, with the Christian virtue of "no envy" built in to people in the west, it is not easy to publicly discuss the morality of Schadenfreude. Schopenhauer in the early 19th century declared it "the work of the devil". The irony of Christian societies having Christian values is that even an atheist like Schopenhauer can't escape using the word devil in his pronunciations. He even demanded if the city people find someone who is joyful in other's demise they should throw him out. In the same time period, maybe a bit later there was a Christian Bishop who is known to have been the first to publish the word. He said this word should not be allowed into the English language.

One thing is clear. People clearly say that they cannot agree on a moral evaluation of Schadenfreude.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Because the shades of it are countless.
That is why.

Hmm. That's one of the reasons. I mean there are many who have apparently spoken of different shades as you said, but the problem with a moral evaluation is because of the ontological question and the famous "harm principle" of traditional and Neo liberalism. That's the biggest problem. But you are right it seems because I remember vividly an example taken by a psychology professor of some sort, of a singer who rose to fame, made money, and treated her old friends and other singers badly. She basked in her fame and money, and others were angry with her because of her burning good bridges. Well, later she sunk, lost all the money and suffered gravely and a lot of people were happy. The moral evaluation of guilty pleasure or is it happiness, is a very difficult one.

I don't know. I am no psychologist. This is what psychologists and philosophers in this subject say. They go back to Freud and his pleasure principle, and Aristotle and his ethics.

Very interesting. It's been a long long time.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
So, for this discussion, Schadenfreude is basically psychological sadism where the pain isn't caused by the sadist himself?
Yes, I'd agree that that is immoral and pathologic. And I can see how this develops from the moral or amoral Schadenfreude and how it can lead to sadism.
What I don't see is any relation to religion. I see a relation between religion and harsh punishment, though.

Psychologists apparently say that a moral evaluation like that is not possible. I think maybe I will cut and paste an older post.

I mean there are many who have apparently spoken of different shades as you said, but the problem with a moral evaluation is because of the ontological question and the famous "harm principle" of traditional and Neo liberalism. That's the biggest problem. But you are right it seems because I remember vividly an example taken by a psychology professor of some sort, of a singer who rose to fame, made money, and treated her old friends and other singers badly. She basked in her fame and money, and others were angry with her because of her burning good bridges. Well, later she sunk, lost all the money and suffered gravely and a lot of people were happy. The moral evaluation of guilty pleasure or is it happiness, is a very difficult one.

Subject experts on schadenfroh persons speak about religions quite often.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Before speaking of the religious implications of Schadenfreude, we must not forget that so many neurologists are now aware that the people who perfectly feel fine with it (and they consider it normal) have a brain whose lobes do not communicate that well with each other. And so this results in a sort of "isolation" of the emotional part of the brain (neurologists can explain it better than me).

“Schadenfreude” is not a socio- or psychopathic trait. It’s far more subtle and most people will experience bursts of it at some point in their lives. Do you mean to say that you haven’t? That’s actually unusual.

There are many, obviously, but the most common sort of schadenfreude occurs when someone who did not show empathy towards your misfortune, has a similar misfortunate experience themselves.

This kind of schadenfreude derives from the desire to be understood and to belong. As we grow and mature, we are socialised to control this natural, but socially frowned-upon, emotional reaction. We still feel it, but have learned not to show it and to shake it off as quickly as possible.


Humbly
Hermit
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
“Schadenfreude” is not a socio- or psychopathic trait. It’s far more subtle and most people will experience bursts of it at some point in their lives. Do you mean to say that you haven’t? That’s actually unusual.

There are many, obviously, but the most common sort of schadenfreude occurs when someone who did not show empathy towards your misfortune, has a similar misfortunate experience themselves.

This kind of schadenfreude derives from the desire to be understood and to belong. As we grow and mature, we are socialised to control this natural, but socially frowned-upon, emotional reaction. We still feel it, but have learned not to show it and to shake it off as quickly as possible.


Humbly
Hermit
Actually after my thirties I have become more and more sensitive I don't know why...
For example...when I play checkers with my best friend, I surely want to win.
If I lose, I am ok with that. But if I win, I feel a bit sorry for my best friend who lost. I am very sympathethic. But it is not willful sympathy. It is just unwilling.:)

Schadenfreude is much more serious than a checkers game.
I am sorry to say that some sociopaths do feel Schadenfreude, because they enjoy seeing others suffer.
For example, in the school field, there are so many cases of sociopathic students. And teachers.
That would steal some classmate's test so that they get bad grades.
Or teachers doing anything to fail their own students because they enjoy watching them suffer.
 

Hermit Philosopher

Selflessly here for you
Schadenfreude is not caused by a socio- or psychopathic tendency.

…/doing anything to/ … /because they enjoy watching them suffer.

To enjoy watching someone suffer is sadism, not schadenfreude. They are not the same.

If you find it hard to tell one from the other; then at least go by this: schadenfreude, most commonly follows an event not intentionally caused by you (not always, but mostly).


Humbly
Hermit
 
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