-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Satan and Lucifer
- Thread starter Quiddity
- Start date
I'm not a Luciferian, but I understand they separate the two according to their myths, so here are their myths:
According to Barbara Walker's Encyclopia of Myths, Lucifer is a pagan god. His name means "Light-bringer" in Latin, title of the Morning God whose job it was to announce daily the birth of the sun (sun rise). The Canaanites commemorated him in their morning prayer (shaharit): Shaher, the Morning Star, and his twin brother Shalem, the Evening Star, born of the goddess Helel --the Pit or underworld into which the sun passes at night --announced the daily birth and death of the sun in Canaanite mythology.
According to myth, Sharher coveted the superior glory of the sun god and tried to upsurp his throne, but was defeated and cast down from heaven [the sky] like a lightning bolt, cast into "the pit" that was his mother. His descent as a "lightning-serpent" into her womb represented a daily fertilization rite that would ensure rebirth of a new sun in the morning, which he would then herald; "in short,the Light-bringer challenged the supreme solar god by seeking the [sexual] favors of the Mother."
The Hebrews have a similiar serpent-god figure in their mythology: Seraph. The seraphim, pictured as fiery angels, were originally flying serpent-spirits, like those of the caduceus. Satan, on the other hand, is "an adversary in the sense of a judge, who tests another's faith by asking trick questions or posing problems that must be solved." Satan's worse offense seemed to be that he wasn't inclined to respect the people he tested, "whose faults he well knew," nor did he ever have anything good to say about them.
Satan was identified with Lucifer when, in Luke 10:18, Jesus is said to have seen Satan descending into the earth as lightning. This emulated the Persian myth concerning Ahriman, also called "ligthning-serpent," twin brother and adversary of the supreme God of fire and light Ahura. Ahriman, too, was cast out of heaven for his hubris. Ahriman it was who gave knowledge to the first couple in the garden of Heden, and introduced death into the world. In Zoroastrian tradition, the two became associated with the ultimate good and evil: "Humans help Ahura Mazdah or Ahriman according to whether their conduct is good or evil." Zoroastrian mythology is very much about duality.
Then there's the Egyptians, who also contributed to the identification of Satan with Lucifer with their Great Serpent god whose name was Sata (or Set), Son of the Earth. Of all the gods, immortality was his because, just like the snake that sheds its skin becomes a new snake, he was regenerated everyday in the womb of the Goddess Sati (or Satet). Rather than a harbinger of death for man, he represented deathlessness of spirit that man could aspire to by identifying with him in prayer:
"I am the serpent Sata,
whose years are infinite.
I lie down dead.
I am born daily.
I am the serpent Sata,
the dweller in the uttermost parts of the earth.
I lie down in death.
I am born.
I become new,
I renew my youth every day."
As the "black sun" (the sun during dark hours) his symbol was the dark disc that combined symbolically with the solar disc (day time) into the whole God of the Sun. He wasn't so much a battling adversary as an opposite aspect of the one god: a dopplegänger.
According to Barbara Walker's Encyclopia of Myths, Lucifer is a pagan god. His name means "Light-bringer" in Latin, title of the Morning God whose job it was to announce daily the birth of the sun (sun rise). The Canaanites commemorated him in their morning prayer (shaharit): Shaher, the Morning Star, and his twin brother Shalem, the Evening Star, born of the goddess Helel --the Pit or underworld into which the sun passes at night --announced the daily birth and death of the sun in Canaanite mythology.
According to myth, Sharher coveted the superior glory of the sun god and tried to upsurp his throne, but was defeated and cast down from heaven [the sky] like a lightning bolt, cast into "the pit" that was his mother. His descent as a "lightning-serpent" into her womb represented a daily fertilization rite that would ensure rebirth of a new sun in the morning, which he would then herald; "in short,the Light-bringer challenged the supreme solar god by seeking the [sexual] favors of the Mother."
The Hebrews have a similiar serpent-god figure in their mythology: Seraph. The seraphim, pictured as fiery angels, were originally flying serpent-spirits, like those of the caduceus. Satan, on the other hand, is "an adversary in the sense of a judge, who tests another's faith by asking trick questions or posing problems that must be solved." Satan's worse offense seemed to be that he wasn't inclined to respect the people he tested, "whose faults he well knew," nor did he ever have anything good to say about them.
Satan was identified with Lucifer when, in Luke 10:18, Jesus is said to have seen Satan descending into the earth as lightning. This emulated the Persian myth concerning Ahriman, also called "ligthning-serpent," twin brother and adversary of the supreme God of fire and light Ahura. Ahriman, too, was cast out of heaven for his hubris. Ahriman it was who gave knowledge to the first couple in the garden of Heden, and introduced death into the world. In Zoroastrian tradition, the two became associated with the ultimate good and evil: "Humans help Ahura Mazdah or Ahriman according to whether their conduct is good or evil." Zoroastrian mythology is very much about duality.
Then there's the Egyptians, who also contributed to the identification of Satan with Lucifer with their Great Serpent god whose name was Sata (or Set), Son of the Earth. Of all the gods, immortality was his because, just like the snake that sheds its skin becomes a new snake, he was regenerated everyday in the womb of the Goddess Sati (or Satet). Rather than a harbinger of death for man, he represented deathlessness of spirit that man could aspire to by identifying with him in prayer:
"I am the serpent Sata,
whose years are infinite.
I lie down dead.
I am born daily.
I am the serpent Sata,
the dweller in the uttermost parts of the earth.
I lie down in death.
I am born.
I become new,
I renew my youth every day."
As the "black sun" (the sun during dark hours) his symbol was the dark disc that combined symbolically with the solar disc (day time) into the whole God of the Sun. He wasn't so much a battling adversary as an opposite aspect of the one god: a dopplegänger.
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
Nice job digging up corresponding mythologies! This is what I meant when I said that I think Lucifer transcends Christianity. Anyone who believes in these Luciferian figures could be said to be Luciferian. It's not necessary to believe in the Christian mythos...it's not really necessary to believe in any of them. They can be seen as a fable, so to speak. Personally, I'm a theist. It gets very complicated when I'm asked if I'm polytheistic. I do believe that any religion a person believes in can be true. I think religion is sort of the tool to understand things that can't otherwise be understood. I'm not sure that any religion is really different from another, but which one a person chooses sort of colors how they understand. So, I can comfortably say that I believe in Loki even though I consider myself a Luciferian and the only god that concerns me is Lucifer. I feel comfortable calling him a god even though in the Christian mythology he's an angel. Why not? His counterparts in other religions were considered gods? Who says an angel isn't a god? Perhaps that's just the Christian way around polytheism. There must be some way to account for multiple forces at work.
Satan is an adversary. An adversary opposes something. In the case of Christianity, Satan opposes God. Now, from what I have been able to tell, God didn't mind this too much, really. And why should he? Without an opponent, there is really no way to make people choose a side. I've known some people who believe that the role of Satan was a scheme of God's in order to influence people's choices and make them more obedient through fear of the alternative. Whether God really did this or not (and I wouldn't put it past him), it's pretty obvious that a lot of religious leaders use this tactic. God's motives aren't really important in understanding Satan though. What's important to this conversation is that Luciferians understand Satan's primary function as an opposer. This is the rebellious nature that so many Satanists represent. All of them could be said to be adversaries and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem comes in when there is nothing more to oppose. Then you get rebellion just for the sake of rebellion. I don't see how that is productive and that is why I moved on. If the only thing that fuels you is rebellion and opposition, then what are you working towards? Nothing...you're only working away from something. If rebellion and opposition is too much ingrained in you, how do you know what you support? Can you or do you only know what you're against? This doesn't happen to all Satanist and for those who stay positive and know when and when not to fight, Satanism is a good path. I found that for me, Satanism really only represented the dissatisfied part of myself and left nothing for the part that sought satisfaction. I think it really is a path that only represents a few things and the rest is left up to the person to find elsewhere in their life. I looked elsewhere and found a whole new path.
Luciferian understanding of the morningstar takes the Canaanite mythology a little further than what Willamena describes here. We see it as a challenge against the authority of God (the Sun). It's a representation of pride and determination. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Luciferian that didn't exhibit these traits. Satan's nature is opposition, but Lucifer's choice is opposition (which ties in nicely with freewill and the Garden of Eden). There is a difference between someone who fights for the glory and someone who fights for what they believe in. Everyday the sun overpowers the Morning Star, but every night Morning Star dominates the sky and fights to the end every morning to hold his position (in case you didn't know, the Morning Star is the last star to be overpowered by the sun's radiance...it's actually the planet Venus). Does this make Lucifer the underdog? Yeah, but who cares. The underdog doesn't always lose and winning is not all that matters.
Gnostics share an understanding of this "fight for what's right at all costs" with the story of Adam and Eve. I'm sure you could find the gnostic point of view on that story in many threads here on RF. I know I've participated in a lot of those threads and have found that other people are able to articulate it far better than I am. Read some of Midnight Blue's posts for a good example. Luciferians obviously recognize Lucifer as the serpent and see him as a savior of humanity for releasing us from our ignorance...a state that God kept us in. This is how Lucifer has come to represent enlightenment. He requires from all of us a neverending search for knowledge and the power that goes with that (the power that will be necessary to fight because winning doesn't come easy and if it did, it wouldn't be worth fighting for anyway). It's important to understand everything we can understand. It's important to see the whole picture even if there are parts we don't want to see. Those may, in fact, be the most important parts to see because those are the things we should be opposing...those are the things that need to change. This applies to ourselves also. There is a lot of self-improvement involved in Luciferianism. We may take a lot of pride in ourselves, but most of us also spend a lot of energy making sure there's something to be proud of. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that so many Satanist use their adversarial nature to oppose outside forces when there are so many undesirable and detrimental forces inside. I understand that Satanism works on the philosophy that we should all just embrace who we are, but I don't think we should embrace things that are detrimental to ourselves. I really mean no offense by this and there are many, many Satanists who do concern themselves with self-improvement, etc. I am merely pointing out the flaws that a lot of Satanists have and the biggest flaw is the lack of will to work through their other flaws. This really isn't a dig on Satanism or Satanists. I have many Satanic friends, actually. I would point out the flaws exhibited by members of any religion. This just happens to be a thread about Satanism and Luciferianism. Given that, I would like to point out that the biggest flaw held by most Luciferians is the tendency to get so wrapped up in the esoteric that we sometimes ignore mundane things. Speaking of which, I need to go clean my house. If you have any more questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them once my kitchen is sparkling again.
Satan is an adversary. An adversary opposes something. In the case of Christianity, Satan opposes God. Now, from what I have been able to tell, God didn't mind this too much, really. And why should he? Without an opponent, there is really no way to make people choose a side. I've known some people who believe that the role of Satan was a scheme of God's in order to influence people's choices and make them more obedient through fear of the alternative. Whether God really did this or not (and I wouldn't put it past him), it's pretty obvious that a lot of religious leaders use this tactic. God's motives aren't really important in understanding Satan though. What's important to this conversation is that Luciferians understand Satan's primary function as an opposer. This is the rebellious nature that so many Satanists represent. All of them could be said to be adversaries and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem comes in when there is nothing more to oppose. Then you get rebellion just for the sake of rebellion. I don't see how that is productive and that is why I moved on. If the only thing that fuels you is rebellion and opposition, then what are you working towards? Nothing...you're only working away from something. If rebellion and opposition is too much ingrained in you, how do you know what you support? Can you or do you only know what you're against? This doesn't happen to all Satanist and for those who stay positive and know when and when not to fight, Satanism is a good path. I found that for me, Satanism really only represented the dissatisfied part of myself and left nothing for the part that sought satisfaction. I think it really is a path that only represents a few things and the rest is left up to the person to find elsewhere in their life. I looked elsewhere and found a whole new path.
Luciferian understanding of the morningstar takes the Canaanite mythology a little further than what Willamena describes here. We see it as a challenge against the authority of God (the Sun). It's a representation of pride and determination. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Luciferian that didn't exhibit these traits. Satan's nature is opposition, but Lucifer's choice is opposition (which ties in nicely with freewill and the Garden of Eden). There is a difference between someone who fights for the glory and someone who fights for what they believe in. Everyday the sun overpowers the Morning Star, but every night Morning Star dominates the sky and fights to the end every morning to hold his position (in case you didn't know, the Morning Star is the last star to be overpowered by the sun's radiance...it's actually the planet Venus). Does this make Lucifer the underdog? Yeah, but who cares. The underdog doesn't always lose and winning is not all that matters.
Gnostics share an understanding of this "fight for what's right at all costs" with the story of Adam and Eve. I'm sure you could find the gnostic point of view on that story in many threads here on RF. I know I've participated in a lot of those threads and have found that other people are able to articulate it far better than I am. Read some of Midnight Blue's posts for a good example. Luciferians obviously recognize Lucifer as the serpent and see him as a savior of humanity for releasing us from our ignorance...a state that God kept us in. This is how Lucifer has come to represent enlightenment. He requires from all of us a neverending search for knowledge and the power that goes with that (the power that will be necessary to fight because winning doesn't come easy and if it did, it wouldn't be worth fighting for anyway). It's important to understand everything we can understand. It's important to see the whole picture even if there are parts we don't want to see. Those may, in fact, be the most important parts to see because those are the things we should be opposing...those are the things that need to change. This applies to ourselves also. There is a lot of self-improvement involved in Luciferianism. We may take a lot of pride in ourselves, but most of us also spend a lot of energy making sure there's something to be proud of. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that so many Satanist use their adversarial nature to oppose outside forces when there are so many undesirable and detrimental forces inside. I understand that Satanism works on the philosophy that we should all just embrace who we are, but I don't think we should embrace things that are detrimental to ourselves. I really mean no offense by this and there are many, many Satanists who do concern themselves with self-improvement, etc. I am merely pointing out the flaws that a lot of Satanists have and the biggest flaw is the lack of will to work through their other flaws. This really isn't a dig on Satanism or Satanists. I have many Satanic friends, actually. I would point out the flaws exhibited by members of any religion. This just happens to be a thread about Satanism and Luciferianism. Given that, I would like to point out that the biggest flaw held by most Luciferians is the tendency to get so wrapped up in the esoteric that we sometimes ignore mundane things. Speaking of which, I need to go clean my house. If you have any more questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them once my kitchen is sparkling again.
spacemonkey
Pneumatic Spiritualist
Gnostic views are very similar to yours indeed. Since we view the "Creator" as a flawed being and not the True God, we view fis opposition in a favorable light. In the case of Adam and Eve, we see the serpent as a manifistation of the Logos sent here by the True God to bring knowledge to mankind. Kind of like a Prometheus figure, bringing fire to people at his own risk.
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
And Luciferians see Lucifer as the Prometheus figure you're describing here. Gnostic Luciferians see Lucifer as an emanation of Sophia, from what I've been able to gather. I personally don't concern myself over whether or not Lucifer is acting alone or with other forces. Either way, he took it upon himself to bring the truth to mankind despite the consequences he knew he'd be bringing upon himself. *shrug* I like Gnosticism. It makes sense...I just have a personal devotion to Lucifer.spacemonkey said:
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
That certainly made clear the difference in world views between Luciferianism vs. Satanism. Thanks Danisty.Ðanisty said:Nice job digging up corresponding mythologies! This is what I meant when I said that I think Lucifer transcends Christianity. Anyone who believes in these Luciferian figures could be said to be Luciferian. It's not necessary to believe in the Christian mythos...it's not really necessary to believe in any of them. They can be seen as a fable, so to speak. Personally, I'm a theist. It gets very complicated when I'm asked if I'm polytheistic. I do believe that any religion a person believes in can be true. I think religion is sort of the tool to understand things that can't otherwise be understood. I'm not sure that any religion is really different from another, but which one a person chooses sort of colors how they understand. So, I can comfortably say that I believe in Loki even though I consider myself a Luciferian and the only god that concerns me is Lucifer. I feel comfortable calling him a god even though in the Christian mythology he's an angel. Why not? His counterparts in other religions were considered gods? Who says an angel isn't a god? Perhaps that's just the Christian way around polytheism. There must be some way to account for multiple forces at work.
Satan is an adversary. An adversary opposes something. In the case of Christianity, Satan opposes God. Now, from what I have been able to tell, God didn't mind this too much, really. And why should he? Without an opponent, there is really no way to make people choose a side. I've known some people who believe that the role of Satan was a scheme of God's in order to influence people's choices and make them more obedient through fear of the alternative. Whether God really did this or not (and I wouldn't put it past him), it's pretty obvious that a lot of religious leaders use this tactic. God's motives aren't really important in understanding Satan though. What's important to this conversation is that Luciferians understand Satan's primary function as an opposer. This is the rebellious nature that so many Satanists represent. All of them could be said to be adversaries and there is nothing wrong with that. The problem comes in when there is nothing more to oppose. Then you get rebellion just for the sake of rebellion. I don't see how that is productive and that is why I moved on. If the only thing that fuels you is rebellion and opposition, then what are you working towards? Nothing...you're only working away from something. If rebellion and opposition is too much ingrained in you, how do you know what you support? Can you or do you only know what you're against? This doesn't happen to all Satanist and for those who stay positive and know when and when not to fight, Satanism is a good path. I found that for me, Satanism really only represented the dissatisfied part of myself and left nothing for the part that sought satisfaction. I think it really is a path that only represents a few things and the rest is left up to the person to find elsewhere in their life. I looked elsewhere and found a whole new path.
Luciferian understanding of the morningstar takes the Canaanite mythology a little further than what Willamena describes here. We see it as a challenge against the authority of God (the Sun). It's a representation of pride and determination. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Luciferian that didn't exhibit these traits. Satan's nature is opposition, but Lucifer's choice is opposition (which ties in nicely with freewill and the Garden of Eden). There is a difference between someone who fights for the glory and someone who fights for what they believe in. Everyday the sun overpowers the Morning Star, but every night Morning Star dominates the sky and fights to the end every morning to hold his position (in case you didn't know, the Morning Star is the last star to be overpowered by the sun's radiance...it's actually the planet Venus). Does this make Lucifer the underdog? Yeah, but who cares. The underdog doesn't always lose and winning is not all that matters.
Gnostics share an understanding of this "fight for what's right at all costs" with the story of Adam and Eve. I'm sure you could find the gnostic point of view on that story in many threads here on RF. I know I've participated in a lot of those threads and have found that other people are able to articulate it far better than I am. Read some of Midnight Blue's posts for a good example. Luciferians obviously recognize Lucifer as the serpent and see him as a savior of humanity for releasing us from our ignorance...a state that God kept us in. This is how Lucifer has come to represent enlightenment. He requires from all of us a neverending search for knowledge and the power that goes with that (the power that will be necessary to fight because winning doesn't come easy and if it did, it wouldn't be worth fighting for anyway). It's important to understand everything we can understand. It's important to see the whole picture even if there are parts we don't want to see. Those may, in fact, be the most important parts to see because those are the things we should be opposing...those are the things that need to change. This applies to ourselves also. There is a lot of self-improvement involved in Luciferianism. We may take a lot of pride in ourselves, but most of us also spend a lot of energy making sure there's something to be proud of. It's unfortunate, in my opinion, that so many Satanist use their adversarial nature to oppose outside forces when there are so many undesirable and detrimental forces inside. I understand that Satanism works on the philosophy that we should all just embrace who we are, but I don't think we should embrace things that are detrimental to ourselves. I really mean no offense by this and there are many, many Satanists who do concern themselves with self-improvement, etc. I am merely pointing out the flaws that a lot of Satanists have and the biggest flaw is the lack of will to work through their other flaws. This really isn't a dig on Satanism or Satanists. I have many Satanic friends, actually. I would point out the flaws exhibited by members of any religion. This just happens to be a thread about Satanism and Luciferianism. Given that, I would like to point out that the biggest flaw held by most Luciferians is the tendency to get so wrapped up in the esoteric that we sometimes ignore mundane things. Speaking of which, I need to go clean my house. If you have any more questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them once my kitchen is sparkling again.
Albeit, I'm still unsure if Lucifer is a person, demon, angel, force, or whatever vs. Satan. I'm unclear on this.
No*s posted a thread on something relevant to this topic that may catch your interest if you wish. I would highly recommend a read.
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27986&highlight=Henotheism
Ãanisty
Well-Known Member
That was definitely and interesting thread! Thanks for pointing it out. As far as what exactly Lucifer is...different people have different ideas on that and I don't think that should really be surprising. Differing ideas happen in all religions. Modern or atheistic Luciferians are very likely to see Lucifer as a force. Most theists that I've met (including myself) see Lucifer as an angel. These differing opinions exist in Satanism too.Victor said:
gnostic
The Lost One
Wonderful and enlightening post, Willamena. I have only recently began exploring Canaanite myth, but found nothing like this Lucifer/Shaher myth.
Would you know where Barbara Walker got her sources from. Personally I would prefer to read translation of Canaanite literature instead of reading just summary of any myth. So I would like to find her source, if possible.
If you find this source for me, can you IM me?
Would you know where Barbara Walker got her sources from. Personally I would prefer to read translation of Canaanite literature instead of reading just summary of any myth. So I would like to find her source, if possible.
If you find this source for me, can you IM me?
Just as a note, I have been able to see Venus at its brightest at mid-day in broad daylight. I didn't know what it was at first --a very odd pin prick in the sky --but by evening I had figured out what it was.Ðanisty said:There is a difference between someone who fights for the glory and someone who fights for what they believe in. Everyday the sun overpowers the Morning Star, but every night Morning Star dominates the sky and fights to the end every morning to hold his position (in case you didn't know, the Morning Star is the last star to be overpowered by the sun's radiance...it's actually the planet Venus). Does this make Lucifer the underdog? Yeah, but who cares. The underdog doesn't always lose and winning is not all that matters.
â Lilithâ
Member
Very interesting posts!
Just to add my own 2 cents...I thought Lucifer was originally a Italian sun god. If someone already said that, so sorry--I might have skipped reading your post because I skim read really fast sometimes ^_^
Just to add my own 2 cents...I thought Lucifer was originally a Italian sun god. If someone already said that, so sorry--I might have skipped reading your post because I skim read really fast sometimes ^_^
Kungfuzed
Student Nurse
Ðanisty said:Luciferian understanding of the morningstar takes the Canaanite mythology a little further than what Willamena describes here. We see it as a challenge against the authority of God (the Sun). It's a representation of pride and determination. You'd be hard-pressed to find a Luciferian that didn't exhibit these traits. Satan's nature is opposition, but Lucifer's choice is opposition (which ties in nicely with freewill and the Garden of Eden). There is a difference between someone who fights for the glory and someone who fights for what they believe in. Everyday the sun overpowers the Morning Star, but every night Morning Star dominates the sky and fights to the end every morning to hold his position (in case you didn't know, the Morning Star is the last star to be overpowered by the sun's radiance...it's actually the planet Venus). Does this make Lucifer the underdog? Yeah, but who cares. The underdog doesn't always lose and winning is not all that matters.
What do you suppose light represents in this analogy? Power? Righteousness? Knowledge? Truth? Do you think they were aware, when this analogy what made, that Venus is a planet that doesn't generate it's own light and is only reflecting light from the sun? Where does the moon fit in all this? Am I taking the analogy too far?
Johnny Agnost
New Member
I don't think they were aware of much back then, such was the limitation of human knowledge, not that it's much more advanced today. It is funny though that Venus reflects the light of the Sun. It could be a good way of saying most of these Theistic religions are basically the same old scam, all that differs is the strength of the organisation based on who's copying who.