San Diego tells bible study they need a permit to assemble

[tomspug]

http://www.10news.com/news/19562217/detail.html

Good thing my bible study is in Sacramento, where you can actually DO things without the government breathing down your neck.

 

[Storm]

ayani beat you to it, Tom: Disturbing Story From San Diego

 

[themadhair]

Interesting comments in that article:

in conjunction tho this, there must be something about the property. I have known Jehovah Witnesses to hold Bible Study in their homes without provocation. If they are starting a Church it normally starts this way and it then blossoms.
The County is so broke they are using any means necessary to generate monies into their coffers.
If we let the County win this, then more things will come. I believe there is something about the land that the County is trying to place a stipulation on.

jehovahs witnesses dont even do this anymore, they stoped about a year ago FOR THIS VERY REASON.
but these people think theyre special or somthing.

 

[Falvlun]

your link takes me to a "post a new thread" page. Could you repost the link?

 

[themadhair]

your link takes me to a "post a new thread" page. Could you repost the link?

Couple: County Trying To Stop Home Bible Studies - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego

 

[Falvlun]

Thanks, madhair.

From what I had read in Ayani's thread, I was thinking "Well, why don't they just get the permit and call it good?" But after reading this article, it appears that the sort of permit they are being fined for really wasn't meant for such a small, in-home group, and it could cost up to $10,000. That does seem to be a bit ridiculous.

Their lawyer also said this:

If the county thinks they can shut down groups of 10 or 15 Christians meeting in a home, what about people who meet regularly at home for poker night? What about people who meet for Tupperware parties? What about people who are meeting to watch baseball games on a regular basis and support the Chargers?" said Broyles.

Good point. Why should a small religious group be fined when groups of that size meet all the time for other various reasons?

As far as I see it, this does appear to be a case of anti-Christian sentiment. Sure, it could be noise complaints or parking issues, as others have noted, but if that were the case, then a different sort of fine (or even a warning) would have been levied. Instead, the couple were given a "written warning that listed "unlawful use of land" and told them to "stop religious assembly or apply for a major use permit" (quoted from the article.)

That really doesn't seem right that you can't hold a small Bible study on your own property.

 

[Storm]

As far as I see it, this does appear to be a case of anti-Christian sentiment.

If the case is being honestly presented, I agree. However, that's a BIG "if," to my mind.

 

[Falvlun]

If the case is being honestly presented, I agree. However, that's a BIG "if," to my mind.

Oh, I'm pretty sure we're not hearing the whole story.

However, the fact remains that they were asked to desist gathering or get this "major use" permit. If it was noise or parking issues, there are different ways to deal with that. If it was more than say 30 people, I could see how it would violate a firecode or something; but this wasn't what they were being fined for. The claim is that they were unlawfully using their land. I really can't come up with a reason how a meeting of 15-20 people for prayer and Bible study could constitute an unlawful use of personal property.

 

[Storm]

Oh, I'm pretty sure we're not hearing the whole story.

However, the fact remains that they were asked to desist gathering or get this "major use" permit. If it was noise or parking issues, there are different ways to deal with that. If it was more than say 30 people, I could see how it would violate a firecode or something; but this wasn't what they were being fined for. The claim is that they were unlawfully using their land. I really can't find a reason how a meeting of 15-20 people for prayer and Bible study could constitute an unlawful use of personal property.

I'm skeptical of even that much, after reading Sugriva's (I think) post in the other thread. Apparently, the whole thing is anonymous, and nobody, even the alleged victims have been named. That raises the question of whether the whole thing is a fabrication, in my mind.

 

[Falvlun]

I'm skeptical of even that much, after reading Sugriva's (I think) post in the other thread. Apparently, the whole thing is anonymous, and nobody, even the alleged victims have been named. That raises the question of whether the whole thing is a fabrication, in my mind.

yeah I had read that post too, which had made me pretty skeptical as well. But, this article is from a local news source (not a right-wing or Christian site) and the attorney at least has been named: Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy.

EDIT:
The couple is now named: Pastor David Jones and wife Mary. link

 

[Storm]

yeah I had read that post too, which had made me pretty skeptical as well. But, this article is from a local news source (not a right-wing or Christian site) and the attorney at least has been named: Attorney Dean Broyles of The Western Center For Law & Policy.

EDIT:
The couple is now named: Pastor David Jones and wife Mary. link

OK, thank you for the new info. Haven't read the article yet, but I will.

 

[Storm]

OK, I've read the article, thanks again.

This whole thing is still unbelievable to me, but we all know that argument from incredulity is a fallacy.

Assuming it's true, which I now have no real reason to doubt, it's an outrage.

 

[ayani]

thank you, Storm.

and i'm glad there's more press about this coming out.

i didn't want to post some links to an evangelical blog, but to an actual news source. i know some Christians have the tendency to become easily excited at similar news, so i wanted to make sure this was real.

what really surprises me are the *questions* this police officer allegedly asked. "do you say "praise the Lord"?" and "do you say "amen"?" these are questions in reference to specifically Christian practices, not in reference to the volume of music or number of cars parked outside.

no one should have the right to break up or intrude upon a quiet, peaceful gathering of people in a private house. nothing illegal seems to have been going on. just a Bible study.

 

[tumbleweed41]

"A local pastor said the County has cited him for hosting a weekly Bible study in his home. The County said visitors who drive to those meetings are affecting traffic in the neighborhood.Pastor David Jones has been hosting weekly Bible studies at his Bonita home during the past five years. About 15 people attend the meetings, he told 10News.Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.
Jones and his attorneys said he shouldn't have to get a permit for what he does inside his house. "We think it is clearly permissible. We think this is a violation of our constitutional rights," Jones told 10News.A County spokeswoman says the County is concerned with parking and its impact on the neighborhood.The two sides met Wednesday but resolved nothing.Jones said they're scheduled to meet again on June 9."
Pastor Fights County Over Permit For Home Bible Study - San Diego News Story - KGTV San Diego

 

[ayani]

About 15 people attend the meetings, he told 10News.Jones said a visitor to a neighbor's house called the County after a Bible study member hit the visitor’s car while leaving. Shortly after, a county code enforcement officer gave him a citation that said he needed a permit to host the weekly Bible study meetings, he said.

so apparently the main reason was a hit car. still, a parked car can get hit by any number of passing and parking vehicles. another question is, is it still necessary for 15 people gathering in a house to have to get a permit?

and what do parked cars have to do with the questions allegedly asked by the police officer?

 

[Storm]

another question is, is it still necessary for 15 people gathering in a house to have to get a permit?

If so, my church's Young Adults group breaks the law at least once a month (potlucks).

 

[Smoke]

so apparently the main reason was a hit car. still, a parked car can get hit by any number of passing and parking vehicles. another question is, is it still necessary for 15 people gathering in a house to have to get a permit?

It still seems there are some missing pieces to this puzzle, but as best as I can tell, the claim that it was a "religious assembly" is the sole pretext for cracking down on the couple. In other words, the county is not singling them out for the number of people at their home, but for a zoning violation.

and what do parked cars have to do with the questions allegedly asked by the police officer?

That's why you should never talk to the police. You think, "I haven't done anything wrong; I've got nothing to hide. Surely, nobody would object to our having a few friends over for dinner and Bible study. I'll just explain the situation and then the officer can be on his way."

Then you find out that your perfectly reasonable explanation is the very thing that's going to hang you.

I suspect that the neighbors have been annoyed for a while, and consider these Bible studies a nuisance. There's no other way to explain how a code enforcement officer arrived the same day as the car accident. Bible study attendee hits neighbor's friend's car; friend calls police; neighbor says, "They're running a church over there; we hear them speaking in tongues and barking like dogs at all hours, and they take up all the parking on the street. They're driving us crazy."

Police officer says, "Hmm ... if they're running a church, that's a zoning violation. I'd better call the code enforcement folks."

Code enforcement officer comes to the house and asks, "So what are you doing here? You got folks coming over singing, praying, studying the Bible?"

"Yup, that's right," says the pastor's wife.

She just made their case.

If she had kept her mouth shut, the county would have the burden of proving they were having a "religious assembly." Now they have to prove they're not a nuisance.

Still, I don't think the county can make this stick. We'll see. Local governments are always cracking down on Buddhists holding meetings in residential areas, but Buddhists aren't able to mobilize the entire Christian Right in their defense. I think county officials are going to be sorry they ever touched this case.

So to sum up:

1) Don't be a nuisance to the neighborhood.
2) Don't talk to the police.
3) Don't assume, mighty government functionary, that every citizen is just going to roll over and do whatever you say.

This video is about a traffic stop, but the principles are the same:

YouTube - What to do when STOPPED BY POLICE.

 

[ayani]

"They're running a church over there; we hear them speaking in tongues and barking like dogs at all hours, and they take up all the parking on the street. They're driving us crazy."

speaking in tounges and barking like dogs? Smoke, no mention of noise has yet been made, much less a noise likened to animals.

Bible studies i've been to are generally different from worship services. it's generally just people sitting with Bibles, reading and discussing and praying. not very noisy. this case may have been different, but so far no evidence of annoying noise has been raised.

 

[Smoke]

speaking in tounges and barking like dogs? Smoke, no mention of noise has yet been made, much less a noise likened to animals.

Bible studies i've been to are generally different from worship services. it's generally just people sitting with Bibles, reading and discussing and praying. not very noisy. this case may have been different, but so far no evidence of annoying noise has been raised.

I know. Believe it or not, I've been to more than my fair share of Bible studies, though not in a very long time. My point was that if the neighbors considered the Bible studies a nuisance, they may have exaggerated the extent of that nuisance.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Update

"I deeply regret that a routine code enforcement issue has transformed into a debate over religious freedom in San Diego County," Walt Ekard wrote in a statement today. "No one respects the right to free religious expression more than I do and no one would find the infringement of such rights more abhorrent. The Bible studies will continue in Pastor David Jones' home as we work to find a solution that works for everyone involved in this matter." He said he's getting to the bottom of the matter.
"Should I find that County staff at any level acted in a heavy-handed way; did anything inappropriate under the circumstances; or that a change or revision to our processes and procedures is warranted, I will take appropriate action immediately."


snopes.com: San Diego Bible Study