Same sex marriage.

[Darkness]

Giving and living personal freedoms includes "allowing" others to do things that you may personally not choose for your own life. Does that mean that you APPROVE of all those things? Of course not - that would be a ridiculous condition to impose on a society which offers personal freedoms.

We can't and don't and never will agree that the personal choices that everyone makes are all within our own value system, and that's not even the point. The point is that we give them the FREEDOM to make their own moral choices, as long as those choices don't infringe on the rights of others.

There is a difference between acts which I may not personally choose for my own life, and those that are clearly harmful. If there was honest harm in homosexual relationships, I would be anti-same-sex marriage; personal choice be damned. There is a place for personal freedoms, but it must necessarily be a utilitarian calculation.

I was in an interracial marriage for eleven years, so believe me, I understand the difference between approval and tolerance. I don't need it preached to me.

I never expected everyone to agree with my choice of a mate. All I demanded was respect for my right to make that choice. As long as people treated my children and me with tolerance and respect, I was fine with that. To push further and demand their approval, or be perpetually offended if they didn't approve, seemed not only a waste of emotional energy, but hypocritical. If I wanted the freedom to have my own opinions and base my decisions on those opinions, they deserve the same right, even when those opinions were not shared by me.

Fair enough. You are entitled to your viewpoint.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

It is hypocritical and intolerant of me to ask for some semblance of logical reasoning? I am offended by the idea that people do not personally APPROVE of same-sex relationships, just as I am offended by the idea that people believe black people are INFERIOR to white people. I am not a liberal, so the idea of allowing something that you deem immoral seems silly, to be perfectly honest. I am glad he/she supports the legality of same-sex marriage, but his/her reasoning is flawed. I think that incestuous relationships are harmful, and thus should be illegal, and do not not defer to any standard of tolerance or liberal freedoms.

I am a woman and I want to know why my reasoning is "flawed."

 

[Darkness]

I am a woman and I want to know why my reasoning is "flawed."

What I meant is quite simply that liberalism as an ideology is flawed. I am probably giving you much too hard a time on these points. I am not so sure how much of my arguments I believe. I often take a hard stance on a position just to learn more about it. I do believe in liberal tolerance to an extent. But like I said, it must be balanced with utilitarianism in mind. For instance, I do believe we need to make a more concerted effort to limit hate speech, however, I generally think the benefits of free speech outweigh the costs of banning it. So, I guess what I am saying is that it depends. Without you giving me a logic reason, why you do not believe two men in love should get married, I cannot really answer your question in full.

 

[Quagmire]

Wait, wait. Surely you don't actually think forcing a rape victim or marry her attacker is better, do you?

Better than letting a rapist off scott free 2/3 of the time? As a deterrent, which is what laws are supposed to be, I definitely do think it's better. At least better in the sense that knowing there are going to be consequences for what you do is usually more effective a deterrent than knowing that there probably wont be.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

What I meant is quite simply that liberalism as an ideology is flawed. I am probably giving you much too hard a time on these points. I am not so sure how much of my arguments I believe. I often take a hard stance on a position just to learn more about it. I do believe in liberal tolerance to an extent. But like I said, it must be balanced with utilitarianism in mind. For instance, I do believe we need to make a more concerted effort to limit hate speech, however, I generally think the benefits of free speech outweigh the costs of banning it. So, I guess what I am saying is that it depends. Without you giving me a logic reason, why you do not believe two men in love should get married, I cannot really answer your question in full.

I do not believe in sex sex marriage because it is against my Christian religion, but I am prochoice about it. I believe in freedom of religion.

 

[Father Heathen]

Better than letting a rapist off scott free 2/3 of the time?

Of course a rapist getting away with committing such a heinous crime is absolutely detestable and inexcusable, but forcing a rape victim against her will to marry the very scumbag who traumatically brutalized her so he can have free reign to do so again, and again? I imagine just being in their presence for any amount of time would be nightmarish for the victim, much less married tothem. That's downright ******* disgusting. I don't think you thought this through.

 

[IsmailaGodHasHeard]

Of course a rapist getting away with committing such a heinous crime is absolutely detestable and inexcusable, but forcing a rape victim against her will to marry the very scumbag who traumatically brutalized her so he can have free reign to do so again, and again? I imagine just being in their presence for any amount of time would be nightmarish for the victim, much less married tothem. That's downright ******* disgusting. I don't think you thought this through.

Oh hell no. I do not support a rape victim marrying her attacker.

 

[Darkness]

I do not believe in sex sex marriage because it is against my Christian religion, but I am prochoice about it. I believe in freedom of religion.

*sigh* You are missing the point. Let me try this another way. Why do you think God is against same-sex?

 

[nekoboy]

It would become exceedingly hard for me to complain about same sex becoming legal except for the fact that it would threaten freedom of conscience. Churches can get sued and have their tax except status pulled due to "hateful" beliefs. This has happened in other countries, even countries that supposidly support the freedom of people to not perform gay marriage if it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Hell, this has happened in the United States.

If You Think Gay Marriage Will Not Affect You, Think Again « SD Rostra

I do my best to not be hateful about this (I have friends who are gay/bi), but can't you at least tolerate the fact that I don't believe it's a good lifestyle? I can stick up for someone who is being bullied for any reason, including orientation, but that doesn't mean I can approve certain lifestyles. You will gain my tolerance, but not my approval.

 

[nekoboy]

Don't forget that the bible also gives instruction on how to sell your own daughter into sexual slavery (Exodus 21:7-11). It's surprising that people don't toss such a ghastly book into the garbage, much less that they actually use it as a moral compass.

Oh goodie, you're taking the Mosaic law out of context again.

Here's a brief summary: The Israelites were given the higher law, which allowed more freedom, but since they were not used to being free, they needed stricter rules. This is the Mosaic law. When Jesus came, he repeated the higher law to those who would follow it. Try reading the New Testament as well as the Old. You sound every bit as closed minded as you accuse religious people of being.

The description below this Deviantart stamp makes sense.
God-doesn't-degrade-women by =RebiValeska on deviantART

 

[Jainarayan]

It would become exceedingly hard for me to complain about same sex becoming legal except for the fact that it would threaten freedom of conscience. Churches can get sued and have their tax except status pulled due to "hateful" beliefs. This has happened in other countries, even countries that supposidly support the freedom of people to not perform gay marriage if it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Hell, this has happened in the United States.

If You Think Gay Marriage Will Not Affect You, Think Again « SD Rostra

That article addresses the California state constitution, which is trumped by the US Constitution, which guarantees freedom of worship. All state constitutions are trumped by the US Constitution. The First Amendment reads, in part (there is the other clause guaranteeing free speech): "Congress shall make no law respecting establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

What this means is that any church or religious organization is free to recognize or not recognize gay marriage. Churches cannot be sued to perform gay weddings, or for "hateful beliefs". That is fear-mongering. End of sentence. Period.

 

[McBell]

It would become exceedingly hard for me to complain about same sex becoming legal except for the fact that it would threaten freedom of conscience. Churches can get sued and have their tax except status pulled due to "hateful" beliefs. This has happened in other countries, even countries that supposidly support the freedom of people to not perform gay marriage if it conflicts with their religious beliefs. Hell, this has happened in the United States.

Given the fact that churches in the USA can (and do) decline to marry people for any reason what-so-ever,I will take this as nothing more than fear mongering unless you can provide, from reliable sources, that it has actually happened (that a church or other religious organization in the USA got sued for not marrying a same sex couple AND lost)

 

[waitasec]

opcorn:

 

[waitasec]

It would become exceedingly hard for me to complain about same sex becoming legal except for the fact that it would threaten freedom of conscience.

what is the golden rule?
should that guide the conscience of the church?


guess not

 

[nekoboy]

Hundreds of Canadians have faced legal proceedings over same-sex marriage | Christian Concern

I might be paranoid, yes, but that is a great deal better than being boiled alive with the other frogs.

If gay marriage becomes legal, I can tolerate people who are married to the same gender. They won't receive approval, but they will receive my tolerance.

 

[Storm]

Hundreds of Canadians have faced legal proceedings over same-sex marriage | Christian Concern

I might be paranoid, yes, but that is a great deal better than being boiled alive with the other frogs.

If gay marriage becomes legal, I can tolerate people who are married to the same gender. They won't receive approval, but they will receive my tolerance.

Canada doesn't have a First Amendment, and I'd be shocked if your source weren't extremely biased.

 

[Jainarayan]

But Canada does have same sex marriage, and I doubt it's going away.

 

[waitasec]

Hundreds of Canadians have faced legal proceedings over same-sex marriage | Christian Concern

I might be paranoid, yes, but that is a great deal better than being boiled alive with the other frogs.

If gay marriage becomes legal, I can tolerate people who are married to the same gender. They won't receive approval, but they will receive my tolerance.

i don't care too much about anyones approval especially if they're hypocrites

 

[McBell]

Hundreds of Canadians have faced legal proceedings over same-sex marriage | Christian Concern

I might be paranoid, yes, but that is a great deal better than being boiled alive with the other frogs.

perhaps you should go reread my post and try it again?
the "Christian Concern" is hardly a reliable source.

Perhaps you can find an article that sources their list of claims?

If gay marriage becomes legal, I can tolerate people who are married to the same gender. They won't receive approval, but they will receive my tolerance.

Oh dear.
What ever will same sex couples do without the approval of some random anonymous internet forum poster?!!

 

[Jainarayan]

They won't receive approval, but they will receive my tolerance.

What ever will same sex couples do without the approval of some random anonymous internet forum poster?!!

Well, in NJ it's not called marriage, but it is the same thing... a rose is a rose is a rose...

But since I'm disapproved of, I'm going to go into a corner and collapse into a quivering mass of protoplasm and cry my eyes out... wait, wut? if I'm a quivering mass of protoplasm I won't have eyes.