Salvation, when?

[sojourner]

What more is there for any of us to do? You're kidding right? We are commanded to "be ye perfect." Christ set the perfect example for us and we must strive to do all that he did.

Herein lies the undermining of the gospel. We are commanded to be perfect. But it is impossible for us to be perfect. Therefore, grace is made available to cover the imperfection. If it were possible for us to become perfect by our own devices, we would not need grace. If grace is what brings perfection, then we have nothing to worry about, because grace has already made us perfect.

Biblically, salvation is not based upon our works.

 

[Mystic-als]

sojourner - frubals!!!
For

Biblically, salvation is not based upon our works.

 

[nutshell]

Herein lies the undermining of the gospel. We are commanded to be perfect. But it is impossible for us to be perfect. Therefore, grace is made available to cover the imperfection. If it were possible for us to become perfect by our own devices, we would not need grace. If grace is what brings perfection, then we have nothing to worry about, because grace has already made us perfect.

Biblically, salvation is not based upon our works.

You may be surprised, but I agree with most of your post. I know we cannot become perfect and it's only through grace that we will be made perfect, but in the mean time, we need to do all we can, striving for the perfection we're commanded to achieve.

 

[Mystic-als]

nutshell - That is true. Grace is not some excuse to do whatever we want. We must strive to be perfect. And this theme you migh find in more than christianity. A search for enlightenment if you will.

 

[sojourner]

I think we need to be very careful about our motivations for doing what we do. Our works are reactive, not proactive. We do good works beacuse that's our proper reaction to finding ourselves in a state of grace. We do not do good works in order to win grace for ourselves. In this reactive stance, we strive to make our persona fit our identity, that is, if we are identified as being in a state of grace, we should live as if we are in a state of grace.

 

[writer]

1 When we make a desision to follow him are we "saved" at that moment or is it when we get baptised?
Both.
Rm 10:9-14. Mk 16:16. Ac 2:21. Ac 8

 

[Katzpur]

I was reading about Jesus and his calling in life.
So I wondered. When we make a desision to follow him are we "saved" at that moment or is it when we get baptised?

I used to think it's when I made the choice. But seeing that God only called Jesus "son" after Jesus' baptism it must only be after baptism.
I'm not trying to debate the issue. I just want different opinions. If you can please give me some scripture or why you think that way.

The Bible states that "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." To me that says that salvation is not a one-time event, but a process. I believe that once we make the decision to follow Christ and are baptized, thereby entering into a covenant relationship with Him, we have an immediate promise of future salvation, provided we remain faithful. But if we fail to live up to the commitment we make to Him, salvation (or at least the fulness of salvation, which may be another topic entirely) will not be ours.

 

[sojourner]

The Bible states that "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." To me that says that salvation is not a one-time event, but a process. I believe that once we make the decision to follow Christ and are baptized, thereby entering into a covenant relationship with Him, we have an immediate promise of future salvation, provided we remain faithful. But if we fail to live up to the commitment we make to Him, salvation (or at least the fulness of salvation, which may be another topic entirely) will not be ours.

I respectfully disagree with this part of your post. "Failing" to "live up to a commitment" is an act-based dynamic -- not present in the process of salvation. That dynamic makes salvation a trophy to be won or lost -- a "contest" -- not a gift that is freely given to us.
If such is the case, how do we quantify "living up to our commitment?" How much "good works" is enough? How little is deemed "too little?"

Turning salvation into a "numbers game" is futile, since spiritual matters are not quantifiable.

 

[Katzpur]

I respectfully disagree with this part of your post. "Failing" to "live up to a commitment" is an act-based dynamic -- not present in the process of salvation. That dynamic makes salvation a trophy to be won or lost -- a "contest" -- not a gift that is freely given to us.

I don't believe you're understanding my perspective. You may even be understanding the words, but you're definitely not understanding the attitude behind them. We've had this conversation so many times in other threads, that I wonder if there's any point in my even trying to explain myself again.

Nevertheless, for the benefit of those who may have interpreted my words as you do... Salvation is not "a trophy to be won... [or] a contest." It is a gift offered to every human being who has ever lived. It is a "gift" because Christ is under no obligation to give it. He could have refused to sacrifice Himself to redeem our souls, in which case there would be no one -- no one at all -- who could ever hope be in a position to return to the presence of God. All of the good deeds in the world would be without value whatsoever.

If such is the case, how do we quantify "living up to our commitment?"

It's not up to us to quantify it. It's up to us to give Jesus Christ the best we have to offer, to show Him that we are sincere in recognizing Him as the only means by which we might be forgiven of our sins. This is what I mean by "living up to our commitment." It means doing more than "having faith in Christ." It means "being faithful to Christ."

How much "good works" is enough? How little is deemed "too little?"

God isn't counting and neither should we be. He expects us to be 100% committed to Jesus Christ. He knows the condition of our hearts. We show the depth of our sincerity by our obedience. He will reward each man according to his works, but all the works in the world are for naught without His grace, which is what ultimately saves.

Turning salvation into a "numbers game" is futile, since spiritual matters are not quantifiable.

I couldn't agree more.

I'd like to clarify my position on just one more point. I know that you believe in the universal salvation of everyone who has ever lived. I don't. But I do believe in an almost universal salvation -- including the salvation of billions of non-Christians and even non-theists. I think you have read enough of my posts on the subject to know that. Consequently, I think it's really not only inaccurate but unfair for you imply that I believe in an "act-based... process of salvation."

I also believe in different degrees of salvation. Jesus Christ said that He would reward every man according to his works. It is clear to me, if not to you, that our works do have value in God's eyes. Most anyone can manage to avoid spending eternity in Hell; that requires virtually no effort whatsoever. The fulness of salvation, on the other hand, requires an uncommon devotion to Jesus Christ and faithful obedience to His commandments. For those who attain that level of salvation, it will have been worth the effort.

 

[sojourner]

The fulness of salvation, on the other hand, requires an uncommon devotion to Jesus Christ and faithful obedience to His commandments.

Here is the crux of my problem with your post. What do you mean by "fullness of salvation?" In God's kingdom, there is one banquet table set for everyone, and there are enough places set so that every person may be seated there. No one is dismissed to "sit at the little table." In God's kingdom, all are equal children of God, and all are in unity. Your statement seems to me to propagate the idea of division within the kingdom, based upon some hierarchical paradigm.

Additionally, these two terms imply some sort of quantification. How much devotion is deemed to be "uncommon?" How much obedience is "faithful?" You just said that

God isn't counting and neither should we be.

Doesn't someone have to count in order to determine how we are to be rewarded? Further, doesn't the word "reward" incriminate this idea as rewards-based salvation, rather than grace freely given?

The idea of "levels of salvation" has the outward appearance of inclusiveness, but it really only creates division. "Only the 'really good' people get to sit here." Of what possible value is reconciliation, if all are not fully and equally reconciled, despite themselves? It dismisses the whole idea of God's love for us and desire for us to abide in unity with God.

 

[kingcores]

"In my view nobody is saved in this life."

I took a look in my Bible, and I found three passages that refute that statement. Here they are, as they appear in the NKJV:

Titus 3:4-5. "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,..."
Notice that it says "He saved us,..." That is past tense. It was done in the past, for people who are still alive.

First John 5:11-12. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
Here John is telling us what we already have.

John 5:24: "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life."

 

[Katzpur]

"In my view nobody is saved in this life."

I took a look in my Bible, and I found three passages that refute that statement. Here they are, as they appear in the NKJV:

Titus 3:4-5. "But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,..."
Notice that it says "He saved us,..." That is past tense. It was done in the past, for people who are still alive.

First John 5:11-12. "And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son of God does not have life."
Here John is telling us what we already have.

John 5:24: "Most assuredly I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has eternal life, and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death to life."

Hello, kingcores. I can't believe you found this thread! It's been almost three years since anyone has posted on it.

I would agree that what Jesus did to make our salvation possible is in the past, and as He said just before He died, "It is finished." I suppose it all gets down to whether you believe we play any part whatsoever in our own salvation. Philippians 2:12, which states, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," seems to be saying that we do. Again, if you believe that your own salvation is a one-time event triggered by the realization that Christ died for your sins, I can see why you would believe that it's a done deal. I personally don't see it that way. I see Christ's crucifixion and resurrection, which are the means by which our salvation is made possible as already have taken place, but I don't believe that once we have accepted His sacrifice on our behalf, we're home free. I believe that faith in Him requires that we be faithful to Him.

 

[kingcores]

"I would agree that what Jesus did to make our salvation possible is in the past, and as He said just before He died, "It is finished." I suppose it all gets down to whether you believe we play any part whatsoever in our own salvation. Philippians 2:12, which states, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," seems to be saying that we do."

I believe that when Paul said "work out your own salvation", he meant "live according to your salvation." In other words, he meant "live according to the fact that you are saved." The reference to fear and trembling does not mean we are to fear for our salvation.

 

[Katzpur]

"I would agree that what Jesus did to make our salvation possible is in the past, and as He said just before He died, "It is finished." I suppose it all gets down to whether you believe we play any part whatsoever in our own salvation. Philippians 2:12, which states, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling," seems to be saying that we do."

I believe that when Paul said "work out your own salvation", he meant "live according to your salvation." In other words, he meant "live according to the fact that you are saved." The reference to fear and trembling does not mean we are to fear for our salvation.

To some extent, I agree. If we are living the way we should be, there is no need to fear. Are you saying, though, that once you "are saved," that's it. Nothing you can do changes anything. No matter how you live from that point forward, your salvation is assured?

 

[kingcores]

"Are you saying, though, that once you "are saved," that's it. Nothing you can do changes anything. No matter how you live from that point forward, your salvation is assured?"

Yes, I am saying that. See John 5:24, John 6:40, John 6:44, John 6:51, John 10:27-29, and John 11:23-25. Read carefully. Use a good translation, such as the New King James Version or the New American Standard Bible.

 

[Gino Cerutti]

Are works important for our salvation? Our works are our fruits.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
James 2:14

 

[Gino Cerutti]

In my opinion to understand deeply such a subject we should entering the mind of God. It is impossible, obviously.

 

[southdetroit]

Are works important for our salvation? Our works are our fruits.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
James 2:14

Ah, the trials and tribulations of being Christian. Our one holy book contradicts itself so much. We read from Romans:

"Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith." 3:27

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." 11:6

We read much the same from Ephesians:

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." 2:8-9

And again, in the second epistle to Timothy:

"[God] hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began..." 1:9

 

[simon kole]

I was reading about Jesus and his calling in life.
So I wondered. When we make a desision to follow him are we "saved" at that moment or is it when we get baptised?

I used to think it's when I made the choice. But seeing that God only called Jesus "son" after Jesus' baptism it must only be after baptism.
I'm not trying to debate the issue. I just want different opinions. If you can please give me some scripture or why you think that way.

we are saved when we believe, but baptism symbolizes washing our sin away, and symbolizes rebirth from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. baptism is the mark which places us in the body of christ. (Ro 6:3)

 

[Katzpur]

we are saved when we believe, but baptism symbolizes washing our sin away, and symbolizes rebirth from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of light. baptism is the mark which places us in the body of christ. (Ro 6:3)

When you say, "We are saved when we believe," I can't help but wonder what you would say happens to (1) someone who, after having once believed, no longer believes, and to (2) someone who believes, but whose behavior implies a lack of commitment to keeping the Lord's commandments.