• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Russian Revolution: 102nd Anniversary

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Dam. I nearly slipped up and didn't post anything! :D

Well, ladies and gentlemen, November 7th 2019 marks the 102nd Anniversary of the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia. We've come a very long way since then; we've had the great depression, the rise of fascism, the second world war, the cold war and the collapse of communism.

Do you believe that the Communist Revolution in Russia was ultimately a good thing or a bad thing for the world? Would we have been better off if it had never happened and what would you have expected to be different? Has the world been better off since the Berlin Wall came down and the USSR dissolved? And what lessons are there from the experience of communism in the 20th century that apply to the present day?

All your thoughts and comments welcome! Now let's cue the music and hear it for the motherland as we all go the gulag together! ;)



Its debatable whether Tsarist rule was any worse or better than communism.

The question, all powerful authoritarian demi gods or all powerful dictatorial despots?
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
i'd say US entering WWI did it.

I think the key thing about WW1 is that Britain and France refused to make a public declaration that they would accept "peace without annexations or indemnities," which the Provisional Government was asking for.

That might have been able to convince enough Russians that they weren't fighting some imperialist war, and might have been just enough to keep Kerensky in power. (The Russians were growing resentful of shedding their own blood just so Britain and France could keep their empires. It was Britain and France who also led the call for interventionism in the Russian Civil War; the US also participated, but merely as tag-alongs to what the British and French wanted.)

Same for Wilson's Fourteen Points, where he wanted to offer softer terms to the Central Powers than either Britain or France were willing to accept. After Versailles, Wilson came home broken and defeated, the Senate failed to ratify the treaty, and the US entered a period of semi-isolation. As a result, Hitler was able to capitalize on the volcanic resentment fostered among the German people, which ultimately propelled him into power.

The bottom line is that the governments of Britain and France behaved abominably, and this is how Hitler and Stalin were able to gain power. They also alienated their former allies, and not just America and Russia. Italy and Japan also felt cheated, which is why those countries took the course they did.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
I think the key thing about WW1 is that Britain and France refused to make a public declaration that they would accept "peace without annexations or indemnities," which the Provisional Government was asking for.

That might have been able to convince enough Russians that they weren't fighting some imperialist war, and might have been just enough to keep Kerensky in power. (The Russians were growing resentful of shedding their own blood just so Britain and France could keep their empires. It was Britain and France who also led the call for interventionism in the Russian Civil War; the US also participated, but merely as tag-alongs to what the British and French wanted.)

Same for Wilson's Fourteen Points, where he wanted to offer softer terms to the Central Powers than either Britain or France were willing to accept. After Versailles, Wilson came home broken and defeated, the Senate failed to ratify the treaty, and the US entered a period of semi-isolation. As a result, Hitler was able to capitalize on the volcanic resentment fostered among the German people, which ultimately propelled him into power.

The bottom line is that the governments of Britain and France behaved abominably, and this is how Hitler and Stalin were able to gain power. They also alienated their former allies, and not just America and Russia. Italy and Japan also felt cheated, which is why those countries took the course they did.
WW1 would have ended by peace within Europe, imo, by 1916 , but when US messed in, Germany lost with devastating blow to their economy, stability and pride that created space for Nazis.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
WW1 would have ended by peace within Europe, imo, by 1916 , but when US messed in, Germany lost with devastating blow to their economy, stability and pride that created space for Nazis.

Don't forget the double-dealing the British did to almost everyone. A big part of the Israeli-Palestinian problem comes from that time. And if the Allies hadn't awarded Shandong province to the Japanese, it is quite possible we wouldn't have had the Pacific war in WWII and Mao in China.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't know the details of the Communist Revolution there. To me it seems like sometimes revolution is going to happen, and its future leaders see the revolution coming and claim it as their own. If you see it coming and get out in front then you can claim its yours even if its not, like surfing a wave. You cannot create the wave yourself. I think the communists named the revolution, tried to define it; but it was a revolt wasn't it? It was people wanting something to happen, unhappy about the way things were. I don't think that the communists caused there to be a revolution. Maybe I'm wrong? If there had been no communists defining it what would it have been? It would have been something else, but there still would have been a revolution.

The Tsar himself was probably the greatest "cause" of the Revolutions, both in 1905 and in 1917. Granted, there were numerous factions at work of various political stripes. The Bolsheviks were only one of many, although they were known agitators and targeted by the Okhrana.

An excellent read detailing the background and events leading up to the 1917 Revolutions is Robert Massie's Nicholas and Alexandra. The war had been going badly for them. Large sections of their country were under German occupation, and troops were deserting in the tens of thousands. Morale was bad. The workers on the homefront were disgruntled. Strikes and work stoppages were crippling the economy, including vital food transports to major cities.

Nicholas was often described as weak and vacillating, and from Massie's account, one gets the sense that the Tsar and Tsaritsa had just "given up" by early 1917. The Tsaritsa was no doubt still in mourning over Rasputin, and Nicholas didn't know what to do. They were losing the war, the country was falling apart around them, and they were just sitting there. The capital city was starving, and even the Tsarist troops couldn't turn the blind eye to the suffering of the people. They sympathized with the people, and with the help of the Duma, the Tsar was compelled to abdicate.

It seemed to be more of a spontaneous mutiny than any kind of planned revolution.

The Tsar might have been able to remain if he acted sooner and more decisively, instead of just sitting there like a moron. He lost the respect of his troops, the respect of his generals; their position was untenable. That was the first Revolution of 1917, which the Bolsheviks had very little to do with. Lenin was still in exile.

The Duma was a legally elected parliament and the basic governmental infrastructure still remained. In the absence of a Tsar, the Duma established a Provisional Government to run things until they could hold an election for a constituent assembly. I think they envisioned having a parliamentary system similar to the British, and some even favored the idea of retaining the Tsar as a figurehead, just like with the Royal Family in Britain.

Another aspect of what was going on was that the Russian Imperial Army was becoming somewhat "democratized." The officers had lost control, and individual military units were voting on who their commanders would be and what course they would take. Every barracks would have nightly political meetings where they would hotly debate issues and what course they were going to take. Not all of them were socialist revolutionaries, but they were certainly there. Most of them didn't really go along with the Bolsheviks, but they weren't all that enthusiastic about protecting the Kerensky-led Provisional Government.

Meanwhile, Lenin and the other Bolshevik leaders came back to St. Petersburg and started agitating and calling for Russians to "finish the Revolution." The Bolsheviks attempted an uprising in July, 1917, which failed. Kerensky was able to hold on to power. The war was still going badly for the Russians, but it was felt that with the Americans now in the war, the tide might have turned in their favor. Britain, France, and the US pressured Kerensky to remain in the war, but many Russians had suffered too much and wanted out. Lenin promised peace.

After the Bolshevik-led uprising was put down, Kerensky faced a threat from the right-wing, General Kornilov. Kornilov wasn't too happy with Kerensky or his government for a variety of reasons. If he had gained power, he probably would have crushed the Bolsheviks. This meant that the Bolsheviks actually had a stake in helping to defend the Kerensky regime, so they made a deal in which Kerensky gave weapons to the Red Guards in St. Petersburg to help defend against Kornilov's attempted coup.

After the coup was put down, Kerensky politely asked the Red Guards to return the weapons they borrowed, and the Red Guards politely refused. Lenin had to escape to Finland temporarily, but given the situation in St. Petersburg and all of Russia at that point, along with the precarious position of the Kerensky regime, he decided that this was the "golden moment" to seize power. This is what happened on November 7:


But in actuality, the Bolshevik Revolution was more a seizure of power and toppling of the unpopular Kerensky government, but that in no way gave them immediate control of the whole country. There were still a lot of Tsarist officers around and other factions who weren't too keen on the Bolsheviks. At the outset, the Bolsheviks had control of some core territory including St. Petersburg and Moscow, but most of the rest of the country was out of their hands. They also had large numbers of German forces occupying much of the country, and they were still technically at war with Germany, although they eventually negotiated the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk (which is an interesting story in itself).

In the ensuing Russian Civil War, there were again numerous factions at work, including interventionist forces from various Allied countries, along with the Germans and many others fighting against the Bolsheviks. There was even a Czech legion stuck somewhere in Siberia when the Revolution broke out, and part of the Allied pretext for the intervention was to save the Czechs. They also fought on the side of the "White" forces in the Civil War.

The Bolsheviks did manage to eventually prevail in the Civil War, which might be considered the actual "revolution." I've read that Trotsky's oratory and persuasive abilities were credited in getting many Russians to join the Red Army and fight for the Bolsheviks. The Whites were associated with the Tsar, who was still widely hated in Russia. The Allied intervention also became a liability, since the Bolsheviks could then say they were defending Mother Russia against foreign invaders. They pointed out the sins and flaws of the French and British Empires, along with US capitalism, racism, and imperialism - and they were fighting on the same side as the Germans. That really, really looks bad, when you think of it - and the Reds were able to point all this out and gain even more recruits in the process.

So, I would say that they did win over a lot of Russians, at least in that crucial period. They did have to fight tooth and nail to get to the position they achieved, so it wasn't as if they just snuck into it. The people had their eyes open, they were free to pick sides, and enough people ultimately picked the Red side that they ended up winning the war.

Afterwards, in those early years when Lenin's government was in power, it started to get better, and there was a sense of hope and freedom that the Russians had not seen under the Tsar. Lenin's New Economic Policy had more free market elements to it, and it seemed they wanted to build socialism more slowly and incrementally at first. Unfortunately, Lenin died in 1924, which led to a struggle for power within the Bolshevik leadership.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
WW1 would have ended by peace within Europe, imo, by 1916 , but when US messed in, Germany lost with devastating blow to their economy, stability and pride that created space for Nazis.

The US "messed in" when the Kaiser made a declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare. That threatened freedom of the seas and endangered US interests and shipping. There was also lingering anger over the Zimmermann Note. The US still wanted peace in 1916. One of Wilson's campaign slogans was "he kept us out of war."

The Kaiser was a madman. In retrospect, it might have been better to arrest the Kaiser and put him on trial. They should have made the Kaiser pay the reparations.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
The US "messed in" when the Kaiser made a declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare. That threatened freedom of the seas and endangered US interests and shipping. There was also lingering anger over the Zimmermann Note. The US still wanted peace in 1916. One of Wilson's campaign slogans was "he kept us out of war."

The Kaiser was a madman. In retrospect, it might have been better to arrest the Kaiser and put him on trial. They should have made the Kaiser pay the reparations.
I think it was much more complex. Balfour Declaration played role. Germanophobia was greatly escalated in US.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I think it was much more complex. Balfour Declaration played role. Germanophobia was greatly escalated in US.

The US was already in the war by the time of the Balfour Declaration, so that doesn't appear to be a factor in motivating the US to declare war.

Apart from that, there was a great deal of anti-German propaganda circulating, plus the Zimmermann Note in which the Germans were trying to goad Mexico into attacking the United States (with Pancho Villa's border raids still fresh in public memory). Then there was the sinking of the Lusitania by German submarines, which was seen as a kind of villainous, dastardly act.

The declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare was not considered a small matter, particularly from the interests of commerce which depended on their ships getting to their destination in one piece.
 

leov

Well-Known Member
The US was already in the war by the time of the Balfour Declaration, so that doesn't appear to be a factor in motivating the US to declare war.

Apart from that, there was a great deal of anti-German propaganda circulating, plus the Zimmermann Note in which the Germans were trying to goad Mexico into attacking the United States (with Pancho Villa's border raids still fresh in public memory). Then there was the sinking of the Lusitania by German submarines, which was seen as a kind of villainous, dastardly act.

The declaration of unrestricted submarine warfare was not considered a small matter, particularly from the interests of commerce which depended on their ships getting to their destination in one piece.
Things were brewing for sometime... So, actual dates may not reflect real events.
 
Top