Romans 1:20

[Brickjectivity]

Here are two translations of Romans 1:20 from the same website:


Therefore, this thread is open to anyone, but I wanted to ask the question: Do you think that God's invisible qualities have been clearly seen from what has been made since the creation of the world or not? And I'm looking for answers coming from the viewpoint of if there is a God, whether you believe there is or not. Also, I put this thread in Science and Religion Debate because I felt that scientific answers would eventually arise in this discussion. Plus, if you don't mind, I'll let someone else start the conversation off first.

The physical world? No. I think that is obvious to the author however. This is not about the physical world but about Israel. He is claiming that Israel has made plain God's invisible qualities.

in John 17 Jesus says in his prayer "I have revealed you to those who..." This might seem confusing since I just said it was through Israel but this has to do with the way the New testament treats Jesus as the expression of Israel perfected through 42 generations and the exact representation of God's being. It is theological not physiological. Israel (in scripture) is a moral institution, even with no land, no king and no army. Romans 1:20 takes the position that Israel has fulfilled its purpose in revealing God's hidden qualities.

Your question cannot be properly treated in the science versus creationism section, because it is automatically framing the question as being about the physical world which it is not about.

Perhaps you have got a good reason to think that it is about the physical world? That would be problematic. The author has just finished stating that God's qualities are invisible. In addition if Genesis is a literal account of the physical creation of our world (which I do not support) then God's qualities were never invisible contrary to Romans 1:20. In the wrong context the verse is meaningless.

It makes much more sense for Paul to be talking about Israel which is styled a creation in Psalms if not in other places. There also are plenty of scriptures (in the Christian NT) which talk about Israel revealing God's qualities. For example Jesus says "you are the light of the world" and Jesus says "you're the salt of the earth."

Theologically the verse is emptied of meaning, because it doesn't matter how the physical world was created. All that matters to the author is the glory revealed through Israel and/or through Jesus. That is the only creation they could possibly be talking about.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Here are two translations of Romans 1:20 from the same website:


Therefore, this thread is open to anyone, but I wanted to ask the question: Do you think that God's invisible qualities have been clearly seen from what has been made since the creation of the world or not? And I'm looking for answers coming from the viewpoint of if there is a God, whether you believe there is or not. Also, I put this thread in Science and Religion Debate because I felt that scientific answers would eventually arise in this discussion. Plus, if you don't mind, I'll let someone else start the conversation off first.

The real issue is much more mundane -- do you have enough information and understanding to explain anything, any phenomenon, that you encounter? And if you do not, how do explain that thing or that phenomenon? 2000 years ago, all you had was God, (microscopes, carbon dating, MRIs, telescopes, Large Hadron Colliders, and that sort of thing not yet having been invented), and so you ascribed what you encountered accordingly. Having done that, well it is now perfectly tautological that "God's invisible qualities have been clearly seen," because you have no other possible explanation.

And yet --- you're still wrong.

And that's where your thinking needs to go answering this question.

 

[Audie]

Here are two translations of Romans 1:20 from the same website:


Therefore, this thread is open to anyone, but I wanted to ask the question: Do you think that God's invisible qualities have been clearly seen from what has been made since the creation of the world or not? And I'm looking for answers coming from the viewpoint of if there is a God, whether you believe there is or not. Also, I put this thread in Science and Religion Debate because I felt that scientific answers would eventually arise in this discussion. Plus, if you don't mind, I'll let someone else start the conversation off first.

Going by his creation, we
find he is inordinately fond of beetles.

( Half million + species)

 

[blü 2]

Here are two translations of Romans 1:20 from the same website:


Therefore, this thread is open to anyone, but I wanted to ask the question: Do you think that God's invisible qualities have been clearly seen from what has been made since the creation of the world or not? And I'm looking for answers coming from the viewpoint of if there is a God, whether you believe there is or not. Also, I put this thread in Science and Religion Debate because I felt that scientific answers would eventually arise in this discussion. Plus, if you don't mind, I'll let someone else start the conversation off first.

It would have been helpful if Paul had specified the "invisible qualities" he speaks of.

But I can answer your question by pointing out that the answer must be "no" since by definition invisible qualities can't be seen.

 

[Wandering Monk]

You can't expect anyone rejecting the Bible to answer your question positively, so I'll step up to the plate since I've used this exact verse recently to convict unbelievers.

Before I studied Christian apologetics, I would gloss over this scripture and not give it much consideration upon people's responsibilities to believe in God. Now, after studying the scientific evidence for God, the message seems clear, powerful, and reasonable to me.

The most primitive or remote man can look up into the night sky and see the awesome display of stars that indicate a powerful creator of the universe. Today, we have much more to go on because of the laws of science we've discovered. These laws, such as the Law of Causality, 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics, Law of Biogenesis, and Laws of Information Science mandate a supernatural creator for the universe - a god of some sort.

While a child or mentally handicapped individual my not have the intellectual ability to understand nature or scientific laws, a rational person with an open heart to God will see his handprint all over the creation. Paul says this, and I believe it.

The evidence for God's existence is so apparent that God will not excuse an accountable person who denies it.

Which God?

This is just a logical fallacy known as an argument from incredulity.

 

[Audie]

You can't expect anyone rejecting the Bible to answer your question positively, so I'll step up to the plate since I've used this exact verse recently to convict unbelievers.

Before I studied Christian apologetics, I would gloss over this scripture and not give it much consideration upon people's responsibilities to believe in God. Now, after studying the scientific evidence for God, the message seems clear, powerful, and reasonable to me.

The most primitive or remote man can look up into the night sky and see the awesome display of stars that indicate a powerful creator of the universe. Today, we have much more to go on because of the laws of science we've discovered. These laws, such as the Law of Causality, 1st and 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics, Law of Biogenesis, and Laws of Information Science mandate a supernatural creator for the universe - a god of some sort.

While a child or mentally handicapped individual my not have the intellectual ability to understand nature or scientific laws, a rational person with an open heart to God will see his handprint all over the creation. Paul says this, and I believe it.

The evidence for God's existence is so apparent that God will not excuse an accountable person who denies it.

The child, the handicapped, and the uneducated
lack the ability to understand much about science.

You appear to fall solidly into that latter, the uneducated.

But let's make sure.

Q. Are natural laws absolute and inviolate, except by "god"?

 

[Alien826]

The most primitive or remote man can look up into the night sky and see the awesome display of stars that indicate a powerful creator of the universe.

Yes, they did and decided that they were little lights in what they considered to be a kind of dome that covered the Earth that was considered to be the center of the universe. Given the information they had, that's actually quite reasonable. They do look like that so lomg as all wee have is our naked eyes to use. Then along came telescopes that revealed the true nature of the universe, in particular the vast distances that are involved, the orbits of the planets that showed that the Earth circles the Sun, not the other way round, and the natural forces that hold it all in place, not angels pushing planets around their orbits.

 

[Audie]

Yes, they did and decided that they were little lights in what they considered to be a kind of dome that covered the Earth that was considered to be the center of the universe. Given the information they had, that's actually quite reasonable. They do look like that so lomg as all wee have is our naked eyes to use. Then along came telescopes that revealed the true nature of the universe, in particular the vast distances that are involved, the orbits of the planets that showed that the Earth circles the Sun, not the other way round, and the natural forces that hold it all in place, not angels pushing planets around their orbits.

Old habits die hard.

Some never got past that ooh aah must be a god,
or why am I'm sick, must be bad magic.

If someone wants to convict ( sic) the unbeliever,
they could hardly come up with worse ways.

 

[danieldemol]

GINOLJC to all,
Great topic. the seen and the unseen. atoms make up molecules and molecules make up matter. can we naturally see atoms with our naked eyes? no. but with the asst. of the microscope we can, but what are the LIMITS of the microscope. well atoms are made of a. Protons, neutrons, and electrons. ok, but these particles are made up of we call quarks. now my question is this, "what make up quarks". can we see with aides beyond quarks? how about gluon. and what arethey made of?

so, how small dose it goes? only God knows. so, the scriptures are right, Hebrews 11:3 "Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear."

101G.

Sure, but even a broken clock is correct twice a day. In my view to say I know the scriptures are correct in their entirety each and every single claim made by the scriptures would have to be demonstrated to be correct, and aside from being beyond the scope of and not relevant to this thread it would be a tall order in my opinion.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Sacred Depths of Nature - Ursula Goodenough

 

[Brian2]

Can something be clearly seen and yet invisible and undetectable?

At face value i would say probably not in my opinion.

The invisible qualities of the creator are seen from what is created.
So we worship a God with those invisible qualities and not idols and other things made to show us what God is like.

 

[danieldemol]

The invisible qualities of the creator are seen from what is created.
So we worship a God with those invisible qualities and not idols and other things made to show us what God is like.

Can you give me an example of an invisible quality of the alleged creator that is seen in what is allegedly created?

 

[Brian2]

Can you give me an example of an invisible quality of the alleged creator that is seen in what is allegedly created?

Life, intelligence, power.

 

[danieldemol]

Life, intelligence, power.

We also see in what is alleged to be created death, stupidity and weakness.

Are these also invisible attributes of the creator?

If not perhaps there is no link between what is seen and what is unseen.

 

[Brian2]

We also see in what is alleged to be created death, stupidity and weakness.

Are these also invisible attributes of the creator?

If not perhaps there is no link between what is seen and what is unseen.

Well I suppose you might see that but imo Romans 1:20 is not about atheists but about those who worship idols so anything that shows the creator not to be a lump of wood or stone is good in that context.