Roman Catholic Gospel and the Protestant Gospel

[JayHawes]

Stop. Wait. Think a minute. Catholics and Protestants have the same Bible (besies the Aphacrypa). We worship the same God, we both believe in Jesus. The rest, is tradition. Though we may disagree with some tradition catholics hold, not all practice them. What we need to remember is what Jesus wanted:
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Mt 25:34Then will the King say to those on his right, Come, you who have the blessing of my Father, into the kingdom made ready for you before the world was:

Mt 25:35For I was in need of food, and you gave it to me: I was in need of drink, and you gave it to me: I was wandering, and you took me in;

Mt 25:36I had no clothing, and you gave it to me: when I was ill, or in prison, you came to me.

Mt 25:37Then will the upright make answer to him, saying, Lord, when did we see you in need of food, and give it to you? or in need of drink, and give it to you?

Mt 25:38And when did we see you wandering, and take you in? or without clothing, and give it to you?

Mt 25:39And when did we see you ill, or in prison, and come to you?

Mt 25:40And the King will make answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Because you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Who is good example? Mother Theresa among countless others. Even CBN, and many Protestant Churches. We need to come together to try to make this world a better place to live. Not separate just to fuss with each other, ignoring the simple things Jesus commanded us.

 

[JayHawes]

So then no one can really know whether or not they are saved since no matter how hard they believe and no matter how hard they try there is always the possibility that in the future they may be faced with a big choice and not choose Christ. In which case it does not seem sufficient that a person simply proclaim that they believe in Christ and what he did, they must believe it with their whole being and once they have done so they can never change their mind? Seems to me like people change their mind on things all the time and so no one can be certain their belief in Christ is sincere until they die, it would seem. And I have always thought that salvation was a certainty for most protestants, accept Jesus and you know you are saved. But, given what you have said, can anyone ever know or be certain that they have truly accepted Jesus? Have I misunderstood what you are saying here?

I couldn't ignore this.

1) You choose Christ once, after this Jesus said he will keep us saved (Romans 10:9)
Joh 10:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

2) God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 1:24)

3) God is not like anything eles, you dont taste him and throw him away, as though ther is something better. If one ceases to beleive in God, he or she was never founded in the first place. Its like the house built on solid ground, and another on sands.

4) How do we know we are saved? Jesus said " Mt 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit"
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Do we do wrong? yes. Do we doubt God sometimes? Yes. But do we stay down? No.

1jo 1:9 - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

co 9:24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.

- Does our Faith last forever?

1pe 1:19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

1pe 1:20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

1pe 1:21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1pe 1:22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

1pe 1:23 Being born again (saved), not of corruptible seed (something that perishes or ceases to be), but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

In Love,
Jay

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

A. The Person who started this thread, when faced with truth , backs out like in other threads,

B. Sorry been away for a while, uncle died, came along way since ive posted, and seeing as no one commented or disputed what i posted, i will take my leave for a while, RLTW seems to have it just fine

 

[lunamoth]

Stop. Wait. Think a minute. Catholics and Protestants have the same Bible (besies the Aphacrypa). We worship the same God, we both believe in Jesus. The rest, is tradition. Though we may disagree with some tradition catholics hold, not all practice them. What we need to remember is what Jesus wanted:
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mt 25:34Then will the King say to those on his right, Come, you who have the blessing of my Father, into the kingdom made ready for you before the world was:

Mt 25:35For I was in need of food, and you gave it to me: I was in need of drink, and you gave it to me: I was wandering, and you took me in;

Mt 25:36I had no clothing, and you gave it to me: when I was ill, or in prison, you came to me.

Mt 25:37Then will the upright make answer to him, saying, Lord, when did we see you in need of food, and give it to you? or in need of drink, and give it to you?

Mt 25:38And when did we see you wandering, and take you in? or without clothing, and give it to you?

Mt 25:39And when did we see you ill, or in prison, and come to you?

Mt 25:40And the King will make answer and say to them, Truly I say to you, Because you did it to the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Who is good example? Mother Theresa among countless others. Even CBN, and many Protestant Churches. We need to come together to try to make this world a better place to live. Not separate just to fuss with each other, ignoring the simple things Jesus commanded us.

Good post JayH. Most sensible and kind.

 

[Special Revelation]

A. The Person who started this thread, when faced with truth , backs out like in other threads,

B. Sorry been away for a while, uncle died, came along way since ive posted, and seeing as no one commented or disputed what i posted, i will take my leave for a while, RLTW seems to have it just fine

The person who started this Thread was banned, probably because he spoke the truth.

 

[Runlikethewind]

3) God is not like anything eles, you dont taste him and throw him away, as though ther is something better. If one ceases to beleive in God, he or she was never founded in the first place. Its like the house built on solid ground, and another on sands.

See this is the difficulty I was getting at. A person could say that they have found God or believe in Jesus and accept him as savior. That person could live a holy and upright life by anyones account and they may even think that in their own mind they truly believe. Then some tragedy strikes and the next day they are hating God. And the response to that is they never really believed, they never really had faith? It just seems to me that given the fact that no person knows the future they can never be sure what will happen or how they will react and so no one can really know how sincere their proclamation of faith was until they persevere in it until the end. I just don't see how any one can be absolute certain of anything. And no one is completely saved until they are with God in His heavenly glory so I don't see how anyone can know with absolute certainty that they are saved until they have died and been judged.

And as far as your other post I could not agree with you more when you say

We need to come together to try to make this world a better place to live. Not separate just to fuss with each other, ignoring the simple things Jesus commanded us.

I have tried, in this thread, to produce light and not heat. I think our differences are important and I think we should discuss them but we shouldn't let them get in the way of following Christ. I hope we can all learn from each other and become better Christians for it.

 

[Runlikethewind]

A. The Person who started this thread, when faced with truth , backs out like in other threads,

B. Sorry been away for a while, uncle died, came along way since ive posted, and seeing as no one commented or disputed what i posted, i will take my leave for a while, RLTW seems to have it just fine

Sorry about your uncle I'll say a few prayers for you and your family. And as a Catholic I will pray for your uncle too

 

[Special Revelation]

See this is the difficulty I was getting at. A person could say that they have found God or believe in Jesus and accept him as savior. That person could live a holy and upright life by anyones account and they may even think that in their own mind they truly believe. Then some tragedy strikes and the next day they are hating God. And the response to that is they never really believed, they never really had faith? It just seems to me that given the fact that no person knows the future they can never be sure what will happen or how they will react and so no one can really know how sincere their proclamation of faith was until they persevere in it until the end. I just don't see how any one can be absolute certain of anything. And no one is completely saved until they are with God in His heavenly glory so I don't see how anyone can know with absolute certainty that they are saved until they have died and been judged.

I have tried, in this thread, to produce light and not heat. I think our differences are important and I think we should discuss them but we shouldn't let them get in the way of following Christ. I hope we can all learn from each other and become better Christians for it.

I really believe we have a difficult time understanding each other because we have a different understanding of the biblical doctrine of justification. This doctrine is the heart of the gospel of grace and really is a non-negotiable essential truth.

For the modern day protestant Christian who states that the doctrine of justification is a non-essential for fellowship between Roman Catholics and Protestants...is really saying the Protestant Reformers were in error... and the Council of Trent should apply to them (eternal damnation). The typical contemporary protestant is quite naive and ignorant of the protestant reformation. He really may not understand the doctrine of grace as defined by protestant theology. Or, the modern day Protestant may not understand what the official Catholic teachings consist of. The essentials of the gospel are non-negotiable. For example, we both would never fellowship with others who deny the deity of Christ. The same is true with those who reject the doctrine of justification by faith alone who understands the work of God during the Reformation. I believe the work of God at the Reformation was the recovery of the bibilcal gospel .

I believe the following verse will help you understand historical protestants in regards to justification. The one who fails the test was never in the faith or never justified.

2 Corinthians 13:5:
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

 

[Runlikethewind]

Disclaimer: I am no theologian or biblical scholar. I have tried to give the best interpretation of the following from a Catholic perspective, I could be totally wrong. Take it with a grain of salt, hopefully I am onto something.

Maybe you can share the Roman Catholic understanding of the doctrine of justification found in Romans chapter 3 and chapter 4.

The way I understand it is that the Catholic understanding of these passages is that Paul is condemning the idea that the Jews are justified simply by following the law, going through the motions as it where. Paul argues that obedience to the law must be done out of faith and trust in God and that it is not the law itself that justifies but the faith that precedes it.

ROMANS 27 What occasion is there then for boasting? It is ruled out. On what principle, that of works? No, rather on the principle of faith. 28 For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Does God belong to Jews alone? Does he not belong to Gentiles, too? Yes, also to Gentiles, 30 for God is one and will justify the circumcised on the basis of faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Are we then annulling the law by this faith? Of course not! On the contrary, we are supporting the law.

What Paul is saying here is that the Jews have no right to say “look at us, we have the law, we have Moses, we follow the law, we are righteous in God’s sight” They cannot such things because it is not on the principal of doing works or following the law that one is justified it is faith that leads one to do works of the law. There was this opinion in Jewish circles that simply being a Jew and following the prescriptions of the Law was sufficient, it was not. Works without faith are dead and worthless. But this does not annul the law in favor of faith, the law is supported by faith. I guess the main point is that the law is not meaningless in and of itself, it is only meaningless without faith.

Paul goes on to support this argument with the case of Abraham. Abraham was justified, made holy in God’s sight apart from the law (the law of Moses came after Abraham).

ROMANS 2 Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."...
10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was he circumcised or not? He was not circumcised, but uncircumcised....
16 For this reason, it depends on faith, so that it may be a gift, and the promise may be guaranteed to all his descendants, not to those who only adhere to the law but to those who follow the faith of Abraham, who is the father of all of us,

Abraham was first made righteous not by the law but by his faith in God. Later Abraham was circumcised and his whole family and company with him to complete the covenant made with God through his initial act of faith. His later circumcision should be seen as submission to God, obedience to the will and law of God, a good work that was the result of faith.

The point here I think, from a Catholic perspective is that Paul is not advocating a message of salvation from faith alone. What we see Paul doing here is rejecting a claim of salvation through works alone, a message that many Jews of the day seemed to buy into. There where some who thought that just being circumcised and following the Mosaic law was enough to be made righteous before God. Paul is saying works, or following the law, alone does not cut it, one needs faith too. We must remember that Paul was a devout Jew and he followed the prescriptions of the law, and so did Jesus and his disciples too. So what Paul is arguing for here is that just going through the motions of religion does not make one just in God’s sight, faith does. Faith in God leads to a desire to do his will which leads to a desire to be obedient to Him and to His teachings, that is faith leads one to desire to follow God’s laws through freely given obedience out of love. And so we do the good works that Christ commanded us to do, we love our neighbors by taking care of the poor and visiting those in prison etc. If we do these thing but have no faith then they are meaningless. If we don’t do these sorts of things, if we don’t follow God’s commands how can we look Him in the eye and say we believe, we have faith? How can a faith that produces no good fruits save anyone? So faith is necessary and true faith always leads to obedience to God and all laws that come from God, which leads to good works.

I hope that was not too much of a rant and that it makes some sense in light of the scripture. I will have some time tomorrow, I hope, to comment on Romans 8 and as I have promised before several times I will try and get something said on grace especially the Catholic concept of sanctifying grace which is essential to our understanding of salvation and justification.

 

[Vassal]

So then no one can really know whether or not they are saved since no matter how hard they believe and no matter how hard they try there is always the possibility that in the future they may be faced with a big choice and not choose Christ. In which case it does not seem sufficient that a person simply proclaim that they believe in Christ and what he did, they must believe it with their whole being and once they have done so they can never change their mind? Seems to me like people change their mind on things all the time and so no one can be certain their belief in Christ is sincere until they die, it would seem. And I have always thought that salvation was a certainty for most protestants, accept Jesus and you know you are saved. But, given what you have said, can anyone ever know or be certain that they have truly accepted Jesus? Have I misunderstood what you are saying here?

Think about it. What is faith? It is believing that Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. This is not something that God may or may not do for us in the future, it is something he has already done. Those who have faith know that God has already forgiven all of their sins, so when some big decision that causes them to have to choose between Christ and something earthly they will always choose Christ because their faith was never based on earthly things to begin with. It is therefore easy to know if you yourself have faith. Is your relationship with God based on what he has already done for you or is it based on what you think you can get from him in the future?

 

[Runlikethewind]

I really believe we have a difficult time understanding each other because we have a different understanding of the biblical doctrine of justification. This doctrine is the heart of the gospel of grace and really is a non-negotiable essential truth.

2 Corinthians 13:5:
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?

I'll be the first to admit that the more the topic is discussed and the more I read about it the more I find that I am truly ignorant not only of the Protestant position but also the Catholic Position as well. It is confusing, at times it seems like we all agree and that we are just saying the same thing differently and at other times that does not seem to be true. I think that terms like justification, salvation, sanctification, and righteousness may mean different things to Catholics and Protestants, that we have different understandings of what the terms mean. Perhaps we may even be able to come to some agreement on things if we could get past some of the terminological hurdles. Of course that would require of me that I actually knew and understood what all these terms meant from a Catholic position, which is something I am not entirely sure of.

I do like this passage from Corinthians. We must test ourselves every moment of our lives to be sure that Christ is truly in us and that we are in Him. And no one can be sure that they have passed the test until it is over and we have been graded.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I believe judgement day is misunderstood. Your name is either written in the lambs book of life or it is not. There is not one big judgement day like a trial where your fate is decided. There are several judgements and they do not happen all at once or all in one place or time. There is the glorious appearing where the living will be taken up in the clouds with our lord. There will be a judgement of our works in heaven and rewards. The works are a by-product of our service to Christ, not the requirement to enter heaven. We are saved by grace. It is a gift that we have to receive freely. Jesus has already paid the price for our sins. We are not perfect, not one of us. We are forgiven however. Once you have been baptised and the holy ghost enters your body, you cannot live another minute on this earth without doing works. If you are not doing works, that is a sign that something is wrong with your faith, not a failed requirement to enter heaven. Works are for us to glorify Christ and for us to inspect our fruit to make sure we are on the path of righteousness and are truly saved and walking in the light of our Lord.

We don't have to worry about judgement day. We need to insure that our name is written in the lambs book of life. That is your ticket to heaven and eternal life.

It is simple to do. You can do it yourself if you want. Jesus Christ can be your personal Lord and Saviour. Just admit to him that you know you are a sinner. Ask for his forgiveness and his gift of eternal life. Tell him that you believe he died on the cross to wipe away all your sins. Claim the power of his blood for your personal redemption. Walk away from sin and bask in the light of the Lord.

Once you are one of Gods children, you can ask him for help with any problem in your life. He will listen when you pray and help you with all your problems. The power of faith is amazing! You will be given the strength to tackle any problems you face.

Many people will tell you that you need to go to church. Going to church has never been one of Gods requirements. Just pray the sinners prayer and get your name in the book of eternal life. It is a free gift. All you have to do is receive the amazing gift.

 

[BM5]

To all who are reading,

I sincerely apologize to everyone for participating in too many Threads to effectively debate with you. As I mentioned, I am new on this Forum. This site is the evangelical's dream site. I'm like the kid in the candy store. You have my word that I will only participate on two Threads. I will participate on the "LDS Articles of Faith" Thread and this one. This debate should really have postings between Roman Catholics and Protestants who embrace the Reformer's understanding of the Gospel. What I mean by the gospel can be summarized by the Apostle Paul:

Romans 1:16-18
I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are at Rome. I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.

What is Rome’s understand of the gospel Paul is so eager to preach? I will represent the Historical Protestant Reformation gospel as declared in the solas. I welcome my Roman Catholic friend to first post the Gospel according to Rome. - BT

Well personally I don't really care how many threads you participate in as long as you can remain lucid.

Anyway what makes you think that Saul of Tarsus is interested in communicating the Gospel as it was delivered to the Apostles ? It is common historical thought among those who have researched it that the leader in Jeruasalem namely James the Just and Saul of Tarsus were definetly not on good terms. And also it is clear that Saul of Tarsus opposed Peter and the others about continuity every chance he got.

The Roman Catholic thing is a misnomer. The Apostolic Universal (Catholic) Churh was originally NOT in Rome but was the name given to the Church established in Constantiople by the Emperor of the same name. Rome's domination came later to the peoples in the West due to political movement and differences of doctrine betweet Rome and the Eastern Church of the Byzantine. And I might add that Rome went down the tube in the 4th Century but the Byzantine ( Enduring ) Church lasted till the 14th Century. It seems to be a reasonable thing to think that God favoured the East more than that of the West since it lasted 1000 years longer.

I am not defending the doctrines of the Catholic Church, much of which I disagree with, but if we are to discuss the relevance of what one group has to say about this or that then at least lest keep things in a proper historical perspective.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Think about it. What is faith? It is believing that Christ died for our sins and was raised from the dead. This is not something that God may or may not do for us in the future, it is something he has already done.

My point is that believing that Christ died for our sins and that He was raised from the dead and that this action has reconciled us to God does not stop a person from sinning, we keep right on choosing earthly things over God.

Those who have faith know that God has already forgiven all of their sins, so when some big decision that causes them to have to choose between Christ and something earthly they will always choose Christ because their faith was never based on earthly things to begin with.

But if I believe that God has already forgiven all of my sins through the sacrifice of Jesus then when I have some big decision and choose something earthly over God then that sin is already forgiven is it not? So I guess as long as I believe that Jesus died for my sins then I can do anything I want right? Ok I know I am being a little tongue and cheek here but seriously if God has already forgiven us then why do we even need to have faith at all? Or is it that God only forgives those who believe?

To put it very bluntly I just don't buy this idea that people of faith are so perfect that they will never fail, that they will always choose Christ. I speak from personal experience because I feel that my faith is pretty real but not a day goes by without me sinning in one way or another and sometimes they can be downright serious sins. And so by your argument my faith is not real, and the faith of so many other good people who have failed to make the right decision every single time, is not real. I just don't buy that. Maybe I misunderstand.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I am the perfect example. By now most of you all know I am far from perfect. I am just forgiven. All men are sinners and we all fall short.

 

[Runlikethewind]

All men are sinners and we all fall short.

I'll drink to that!:drunk: just not too much cause then I would be falling short...again.

 

[TruthInCatholocism]

Thanks RLTW

and yeah, Special Revelation, Im sure he was "Banned for speaking the truth" Good call, your right on the ball, O_O, RF are agasint us all O_O

 

[Special Revelation]

I'll be the first to admit that the more the topic is discussed and the more I read about it the more I find that I am truly ignorant not only of the Protestant position but also the Catholic Position as well. It is confusing, at times it seems like we all agree and that we are just saying the same thing differently and at other times that does not seem to be true. I think that terms like justification, salvation, sanctification, and righteousness may mean different things to Catholics and Protestants, that we have different understandings of what the terms mean. Perhaps we may even be able to come to some agreement on things if we could get past some of the terminological hurdles. Of course that would require of me that I actually knew and understood what all these terms meant from a Catholic position, which is something I am not entirely sure of.

I do like this passage from Corinthians. We must test ourselves every moment of our lives to be sure that Christ is truly in us and that we are in Him. And no one can be sure that they have passed the test until it is over and we have been graded.

Runlikethewind,

I must start and say that I really like you. God appears to have granted you an apparent humility. The passage from 2 Corinthians is a sober exhortation by the Apostle Paul. There is one biblical gospel which God saves (Romans 1:16). We are commanded and privileged to proclaim the biblical gospel to all who will listen (rom 10). The Protestant Reformation and the Council of Trent is 'THE BATTLE" of the biblical gospel. The battle is within the biblical doctrine of justification. Things have not changed theologically in 500 years.

I'll be honest with you. The official Roman Catholic gospel is not the biblical gospel because Rome has rejected the doctrine of justification by faith alone. Do I believe there are saved and converted Roman Catholics? My answer is yes because not all Roman Catholics understand or believe the official Roman Catholic position of justification. By the grace of God, they are trusting in the person and work of Christ on their behalf, or actually believe in justification by faith alone.

You are very wise to start with semantics and definitions. We can explore biblical language like justification, sanctification, grace, merit, imputation (credited), and righteousness. I like the guys from Catholic Answers since they understand the official protestant gospel. I believe our loyalty should be to God alone, and not denominations. In Heaven, the only label that will matter is Christian. I look forward to discussing things with you. Only God knows if we are brothers in Christ. However, it's safer to not embrace each other as brothers at this time, since we need to explore theological implications together.

I have read some of the postings on this Thread. I basically agree with the person who started this Thread. I noticed that there is much friction going on here. I would only like to discuss and explore our differences with you and a few of the Protestants on this Thread. To reduce friction, I will designate yourself to be the Roman Catholic representative in our personal discussion. Of course, other Roman Catholics can post, but I will not be responding to them to keep things flowing. May God give us grace to see His mighty work in us, to the praise of His glorious grace. Thanks again my friend for your kindness.

 

[Special Revelation]

I believe judgement day is misunderstood. Your name is either written in the lambs book of life or it is not. There is not one big judgement day like a trial where your fate is decided. There are several judgements and they do not happen all at once or all in one place or time. There is the glorious appearing where the living will be taken up in the clouds with our lord. There will be a judgement of our works in heaven and rewards. The works are a by-product of our service to Christ, not the requirement to enter heaven. We are saved by grace. It is a gift that we have to receive freely. Jesus has already paid the price for our sins. We are not perfect, not one of us. We are forgiven however. Once you have been baptised and the holy ghost enters your body, you cannot live another minute on this earth without doing works. If you are not doing works, that is a sign that something is wrong with your faith, not a failed requirement to enter heaven. Works are for us to glorify Christ and for us to inspect our fruit to make sure we are on the path of righteousness and are truly saved and walking in the light of our Lord.

We don't have to worry about judgement day. We need to insure that our name is written in the lambs book of life. That is your ticket to heaven and eternal life.

It is simple to do. You can do it yourself if you want. Jesus Christ can be your personal Lord and Saviour. Just admit to him that you know you are a sinner. Ask for his forgiveness and his gift of eternal life. Tell him that you believe he died on the cross to wipe away all your sins. Claim the power of his blood for your personal redemption. Walk away from sin and bask in the light of the Lord.

Once you are one of Gods children, you can ask him for help with any problem in your life. He will listen when you pray and help you with all your problems. The power of faith is amazing! You will be given the strength to tackle any problems you face.

Many people will tell you that you need to go to church. Going to church has never been one of Gods requirements. Just pray the sinners prayer and get your name in the book of eternal life. It is a free gift. All you have to do is receive the amazing gift.

Dear Runlikethewind,

Just for theological discussion and distinctions, my Protestant brother appears to believe in 'decisional regeneration'. I believe he is proclaiming that a person can do a sinner's prayer to become a Christian. Decisional regeneration is rooted in Arminainism and Semi-Pelagianism. This is a modern idea, starting with Charles Finney in the 2nd Great Awakening in America. I believe Charles Finney rejected the historical protestant position of the imputed righteousness of Christ through faith alone. I believe this modern idea has weaken and confused the doctrine of justification by faith alone proclaimed by the Reformers. This is a modern day understanding of the protestant version of the gospel. However, this is not the historical protestant proclamation of the gospel of Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Huss, Wycliffe, and other giants of the Reformation.

I believe some of the ex-protestant pastors who are now lay Roman Catholic apologist at Catholic Answers are over-reacting to the modern idea of "decisional regeneration" and 'easy believism'. Again, this sinners prayer concept was foreign to the Reformers, the Pilgrim and Puritans, and the 1st Great Awakening in America (Johnathan Edwards, George Whitfield). I believe this modern day phenomenon is part of your confusion in our discussion of justification by faith alone. I believe the concept of decisonl regeneration is man-made; therefore God cannot be mocked...we reap what we sow. Many modern day protestant churches appear to have people who would fail the test to see if they are truly in the faith (2 Cor) because they did a sinner's prayer or altar call, but have not been converted by God.

 

[Runlikethewind]

As promised....

In additon to the biblical understanding of the doctrine of justification, we need define the word grace. How is grace received and for what reason in regards to the process of salvation?

First I shall say a few words on justification. The Catholic concept of justification contains two parts. First, justification is the righteousness gained through the remission of sins due to the passion of Christ. By faith in Jesus and baptism we accept the righteousness of Christ’s actions and we are justified for that. The other aspect of justification is the sanctification and renewal of the interior man. And I have a feeling that it is this second part of the Catholic conception of justification that differs from the classic protestant understanding. Perhaps this is what you where referring to when you spoke of the distinction between justification and sanctification?

So the Catholic concept of justification, from what I understand, is quite similar to the protestant understanding in the first part. It is through faith and acceptance of Jesus that we are initially justified. This is where I see that we part ways, Catholics say that justification begins with this act of faith and that our justification continues as we are called to conversion and sanctification through the power and gifts of the Holy Spirit. We see justification beginning with faith and ending only when we have been fully sanctified and converted. The classic protestant view, from what I see, would say that justification has occurred and is a one time event followed by the process of sanctification. Am I right here?

So this is where grace comes into play. The Church teaches no person can merit the initial grace that leads to the act of justification and forgiveness of sins. We require God’s grace to move us to accept Jesus, to make an act of faith. We cannot do this apart from God’s grace. This initiative on God’s part to give us the grace to have faith demands our free response to it, to accept that grace. Once we have accepted God’s grace God freely chooses to associate us with the work of his grace. It is in this then that we become cooperators in the work of our sanctification through charity and our justification through faith. We have no right or capacity on our own to do any of this, but God has freely chosen to give us this capacity to cooperate. We must ultimately say that it is God’s grace that allows us to act on our own behalf but we have been given the capacity to act on our own behalf through God’s grace. This brings us to what the Church refers to as the state of sanctifying grace. The Catechism of the Catholic Church makes defines this aspect of grace as follows:

CCC 2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Sanctifying grace is habitual, it is a state of being that exists when we continue to accept God’s grace. We see ourselves as being partners with God in this, not by anything of our own merit, but because that is how God has set it up. God gives us grace, we accept it, we are converted and sanctified by this process. When we fail to accept God’s grace, we fall back on our conversion. If we are not being converted in our interior life, then we are not being sanctified. And therefore, if we are not being sanctified we are not being justified and we are no longer in the state of grace. But then God gives us the grace to reconcile with him, to come back and ask forgiveness, when we accept this we return to a state of grace. So there is a great deal of uncertainty to this since we are always working toward perfect conversion and we often fall down on the way, we can never be 100% certain if we are moving forward in our conversion or if we are moving backward (humans are great at self delusion as well....) and since the future is unknown to us the possibility exists that we may fail to cooperate with God's grace thereby falling out of a state of grace.

To summarize, Catholics see justification as a two fold concept. The forgiveness of sins from being made righteous by the works of Jesus through faith, and the continuing process of conversion and sanctification. From what I guess, and you’ll let me know if I am wrong, the classic protestant view would separate these two aspects of justification into justification and sanctification.

Grace is freely given by God and used to initially move a person to faith and thereby to justification and the forgiveness of sins. Grace is then a state that is lived in by the person who continues to be justified and sanctified by freely cooperating with that grace at every moment of ones life. The state of grace is referred to as habitual or sanctifying grace, the graces to do specific acts of charity and good works is referred to as actual grace. A person exercises their free will to cooperate initially with the grace to be justified in faith and then continually exercise their free will to be sanctified and converted by living in a state of sanctifying grace by cooperating with actual graces to bear good fruit. A living faith that produces good fruit is the result of being in a state of grace which justifies and sanctifies.

I hope that makes some sense.