Roman Catholic Gospel and the Protestant Gospel

[Special Revelation]

Sorry, that's still a work. It's something I'm supposed to do. I'm supposed to "trust Christ." Your distinction doesn't seem to make any sense. I take some action (here, "trust Christ") and this magically effects "God's" relationship to me. It seems like if my faith comes from my own actions and decisions, I could certainly boast about my having faith to look upon others as unsaved because they have not done the necessary "work" to be saved.

A work is a work. Calling the work "trust" or "faith" doesn't change that it is, nonetheless, a work.

Saving Faith is a gift of God, granted to believers. Someone cannot generate faith that saves by their own will power or ability. Nor, can a believer generate faith that keeps them saved to the very end. Think about it, why is someone able to believer, trust or have faith in all that God promises in the Bible? Why can't others believe, trust, or have faith in the promises of God?

God commands us to believe, but gives some the ability, or enables some to believe.
It's the same with repentance. God commands all men to repent, yet the Bible states that repentance is granted by God to some.

 

[doppelganger]

Saving Faith is a gift of God, granted to believers. Someone cannot generate faith that saves by their own will power or ability. Nor, can a believer generate faith that keeps them saved to the very end.

I'm inclined to agree. "Let no one boast."

 

[Special Revelation]

I'm inclined to agree. "Let no one boast."

Saving Faith is a gift of God

Philippians 1:29:
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him,

 

[Special Revelation]

Repentance is required for salvation. However, repentance is a gift of God.

1. Acts 11:18
2. When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
3. Acts 19:4
   Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
4. Acts 20:21
   I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus.
5. 2 Tim 2:25
   Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

 

[Runlikethewind]

If salvation is through faith alone, and faith is a gift from God, then we shouldn't have to do anything at all, we should be able to sit by passively and wait to be given faith (if God decides to give it to us) and be saved. Yet does not the bible speak about taking care of the poor, loving ones neighbor, selling our belongings and following Jesus, and other sorts of thing? This sounds like we are supposed to do something. Is it that saving faith a living faith that produces good works?

 

[Special Revelation]

James 1:17:
Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Is Salvation a gift from God? I say yes! If you say no, salvation is a work by mankind and God. God and man saves the sinner. Therefore, man can boast in his cooperative work with God. What percentage do you personally take credit for in your salvation? If you take 3% credit, you will ultimately be boasting before God for your part in salvation. If you believe faith is a work, you will be boasting in your ability to believe, have faith, or trust in God.

 

[Special Revelation]

If salvation is through faith alone, and faith is a gift from God, then we shouldn't have to do anything at all, we should be able to sit by passively and wait to be given faith (if God decides to give it to us) and be saved. Yet does not the bible speak about taking care of the poor, loving ones neighbor, selling our belongings and following Jesus, and other sorts of thing? This sounds like we are supposed to do something. Is it that saving faith a living faith that produces good works?

What does saving faith look like? Someone who has been saved by God will have the faith that works (James 2, Ephesians 2:10). God has predestined his called out ones to work the works that was predetermined for him to walk in. The problem with Roman Catholic doctrine is a proper understanding of biblical justification (Romans 3 and Romans 4). A Roman Catholic will always have difficulties with Romans 8:1 "Therefore, there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus" (paraphrased), or Romans 5 "peace with God" since Roman Catholic theology does not make the apparent biblical distinction of justification and sanctification.

Romans 12:3:
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.

In context, the verse above is addressed to believers in Christ.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Is Salvation a gift from God? I say yes!

I say yes too, salvation is a gift from God it cannot be earned through works no good Catholic should believe that it can be earned.

It is not enough, however, that God merely gives this gift. A gift that is not received is worthless. If God where to give me his gift of faith, grace, salvation, or whatever, and I where to refuse that gift, then what could God do? If I where to say " I don't want your salvation, I don't want your faith, leave me alone God!" how would God respond? Would God force His gifts on me? (Someone just started another thread on this topic too http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52061) If God did force salvation on someone who refused to accept his gift then free-will would be meaningless and in the end we would all be saved because God would force it on us all. So there is something that we must do that adds nothing to the work of God, salvation is His to give but in order for us to have it we must accept the gift.

I give an analogy to illustrate my point. A mother is baking a cake, she has all of the ingredient, all the tools, all the knowledge, and all the capacities and power to make the cake on her own. Her daughter comes along and says "mommy can I help you bake this cake?" Out of love the mother says "sure you can." And so the mother measures out a cup of flour and hands it to her daughter and says "ok now dump it in here and help mommy stir." The child dumps in the flour and with her mother grasps the spoon and begins to stir. The child brings nothing into the baking of the cake, in fact her presence is probably more of a hindrance. The child drops the milk spilling it all over, the child adds salt instead of sugar, the child just makes a mess of things. The child has no idea what she is doing, the child cannot make a cake no matter how hard she tries. But out of love the mother allows her daughter to cooperate and out of love the daughter desires to cooperate. This is the relation between God and humans that I speak of. In order to accept the gift of salvation God has asked us to participate, to cooperate with his grace. It is not by our own power or anything that we bring, it is a matter of exercising our free will to help God stir when He asks, to add the flour when He gives it to us. This is a living faith that participates in and cooperates with the grace of God each and every moment of our lives.

See I think the problem here is that from the protestant perspective, and I could be wrong, salvation is a one time event. One has faith and one is saved that is all that is needed. Catholics see salvation as a process, every moment of our lives God is offering His gift of salvation in the form of sanctifying grace, and each and every moment of our lives He is asking us to accept his gift. When we do accept it, we make an act of faith, we trust in God and follow his will, each and every moment of our lives, and often we fail to accept it. When we do fail, we run back to God ask his forgiveness and when He grants it, He offers His gift for us to accept or reject again. So it is not through works that we earn our salvation, no, we bring nothing to it. It is by God's grace that we are saved and we accept God's grace by exercising our free will to trust in God and cooperate in His will for us through faith. This is a process that begins in life and end when we are fully in God's presence in heaven.

 

[Special Revelation]

See I think the problem here is that from the protestant perspective, and I could be wrong, salvation is a one time event. One has faith and one is saved that is all that is needed. Catholics see salvation as a process, every moment of our lives God is offering His gift of salvation in the form of sanctifying grace, and each and every moment of our lives He is asking us to accept his gift. When we do accept it, we make an act of faith, we trust in God and follow his will, each and every moment of our lives, and often we fail to accept it. When we do fail, we run back to God ask his forgiveness and when He grants it, He offers His gift for us to accept or reject again. So it is not through works that we earn our salvation, no, we bring nothing to it. It is by God's grace that we are saved and we accept God's grace by exercising our free will to trust in God and cooperate in His will for us through faith. This is a process that begins in life and end when we are fully in God's presence in heaven.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the protestant view of salvation. The doctrine of biblical justification (Romans 3, Romans 4) has always been the essential difference between protestants and Roman Catholics. Please look at Romans 8 - great chain of salvation being a process. However, justifcation is a one time event for those who are being saved (process).

Romans 8

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit...

... And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written:

"For your sake we face death all day long;
we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered." No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Special Revelation]

I say yes too, salvation is a gift from God it cannot be earned through works no good Catholic should believe that it can be earned.

It is not enough, however, that God merely gives this gift. A gift that is not received is worthless. If God where to give me his gift of faith, grace, salvation, or whatever, and I where to refuse that gift, then what could God do? If I where to say " I don't want your salvation, I don't want your faith, leave me alone God!" how would God respond? Would God force His gifts on me? (Someone just started another thread on this topic too http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=52061) If God did force salvation on someone who refused to accept his gift then free-will would be meaningless and in the end we would all be saved because God would force it on us all. So there is something that we must do that adds nothing to the work of God, salvation is His to give but in order for us to have it we must accept the gift.

I give an analogy to illustrate my point. A mother is baking a cake, she has all of the ingredient, all the tools, all the knowledge, and all the capacities and power to make the cake on her own. Her daughter comes along and says "mommy can I help you bake this cake?" Out of love the mother says "sure you can." And so the mother measures out a cup of flour and hands it to her daughter and says "ok now dump it in here and help mommy stir." The child dumps in the flour and with her mother grasps the spoon and begins to stir. The child brings nothing into the baking of the cake, in fact her presence is probably more of a hindrance. The child drops the milk spilling it all over, the child adds salt instead of sugar, the child just makes a mess of things. The child has no idea what she is doing, the child cannot make a cake no matter how hard she tries. But out of love the mother allows her daughter to cooperate and out of love the daughter desires to cooperate. This is the relation between God and humans that I speak of. In order to accept the gift of salvation God has asked us to participate, to cooperate with his grace. It is not by our own power or anything that we bring, it is a matter of exercising our free will to help God stir when He asks, to add the flour when He gives it to us. This is a living faith that participates in and cooperates with the grace of God each and every moment of our lives.

See I think the problem here is that from the protestant perspective, and I could be wrong, salvation is a one time event. One has faith and one is saved that is all that is needed. Catholics see salvation as a process, every moment of our lives God is offering His gift of salvation in the form of sanctifying grace, and each and every moment of our lives He is asking us to accept his gift. When we do accept it, we make an act of faith, we trust in God and follow his will, each and every moment of our lives, and often we fail to accept it. When we do fail, we run back to God ask his forgiveness and when He grants it, He offers His gift for us to accept or reject again. So it is not through works that we earn our salvation, no, we bring nothing to it. It is by God's grace that we are saved and we accept God's grace by exercising our free will to trust in God and cooperate in His will for us through faith. This is a process that begins in life and end when we are fully in God's presence in heaven.

In additon to the biblical understanding of the doctrine of justification, we need define the word grace. How is grace received and for what reason in regards to the process of salvation?

 

[Runlikethewind]

I think you have a misunderstanding of the protestant view of salvation. The doctrine of biblical justification (Romans 3, Romans 4) has always been the essential difference between protestants and Roman Catholics. Please look at Romans 8 - great chain of salvation being a process. However, justifcation is a one time event for those who are being saved (process).

Thank you for the clarification, I had asked in an earlier post whether salvation was seen as a process or not but I think it got overlooked.

So let me see if I understand this properly then, one is justified by faith and so in being justified one is saved or begins the process of salvation. Since by faith a person is already justified one cannot leave the process of salvation, once it has begun by being justified through faith the process of salvation cannot stop, or salvation cannot be lost. Am I understanding correctly here? If this is the case then the way I understand it, we both agree that one is saved (which is a process) by being justified and where we disagree is on how one is justified and perhaps even what justification is.

I will also try and post something later on a definition for grace as you have asked.

Thanks again for the clarification on salvation.

 

[Special Revelation]

Thank you for the clarification, I had asked in an earlier post whether salvation was seen as a process or not but I think it got overlooked.

So let me see if I understand this properly then, one is justified by faith and so in being justified one is saved or begins the process of salvation. Since by faith a person is already justified one cannot leave the process of salvation, once it has begun by being justified through faith the process of salvation cannot stop, or salvation cannot be lost. Am I understanding correctly here? If this is the case then the way I understand it, we both agree that one is saved (which is a process) by being justified and where we disagree is on how one is justified and perhaps even what justification is.

I will also try and post something later on a definition for grace as you have asked.

Thanks again for the clarification on salvation.

agreed

 

[Special Revelation]

Thank you for the clarification, I had asked in an earlier post whether salvation was seen as a process or not but I think it got overlooked.

So let me see if I understand this properly then, one is justified by faith and so in being justified one is saved or begins the process of salvation. Since by faith a person is already justified one cannot leave the process of salvation, once it has begun by being justified through faith the process of salvation cannot stop, or salvation cannot be lost. Am I understanding correctly here? If this is the case then the way I understand it, we both agree that one is saved (which is a process) by being justified and where we disagree is on how one is justified and perhaps even what justification is.

I will also try and post something later on a definition for grace as you have asked.

Thanks again for the clarification on salvation.

Runlikethewind...what happened to the person who started this Thread?

 

[Runlikethewind]

agreed

Cool. This has been a fruitful discussion for me since I am beginning to understand more about this issue of salvation. You said earlier,

Roman Catholic theology does not make the apparent biblical distinction of justification and sanctification.

so how does sanctification differ from justification and where does it fit in the picture?

Runlikethewind...what happened to the person who started this Thread?

As for that I am uncertain, I went on vacation for a few weeks and when I came back apparently Bible Truth was banned from the forum, it appears. Someone else probably knows the whole story behind it but suffice to say he was at times a rather controversial character in the way he preached his beliefs. He probably rubbed too many people the wrong way. But I don't know.

Also I am working on posting something on grace. Catholics believe in sanctifying grace as being the formal cause in the process of justification. So this question of sanctification and justification seems like the area upon which we disagree most.

 

[Vassal]

Thank you for the clarification, I had asked in an earlier post whether salvation was seen as a process or not but I think it got overlooked.

So let me see if I understand this properly then, one is justified by faith and so in being justified one is saved or begins the process of salvation. Since by faith a person is already justified one cannot leave the process of salvation, once it has begun by being justified through faith the process of salvation cannot stop, or salvation cannot be lost. Am I understanding correctly here? If this is the case then the way I understand it, we both agree that one is saved (which is a process) by being justified and where we disagree is on how one is justified and perhaps even what justification is.

I will also try and post something later on a definition for grace as you have asked.

Thanks again for the clarification on salvation.

There is no “process of salvation”. Salvation happens at the moment you believe in Christ Jesus and what he was has done for us. Sometimes a person must go through “a process” before they finally believe, but until they believe in him they are not saved. Salvation cannot be lost, though sometimes a person can act as though they believe but when faced with a big choice they do not choose Christ because they never did believe. Just because a person goes to church, does good deeds, prays, etc.., does not mean they really believe, though from an outside perspective it may look like they do because faith does cause a person to do these things. It is very hard to know it someone really does believe or if they are just going through the motions if you do not know the person well, and sometimes even if you do, but once you get to know a person well you should be able to see whether their primary concern is to please themselves or to please God.

Matthew 19:25-26 (NLT) 25 The disciples were astounded. “Then who in the world can be saved?” they asked. 26 Jesus looked at them intently and said, “Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible.”

Luke 7:50 (NLT) And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

John 3:15 (NLT) so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life.

John 3:18 (NLT) “There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.

John 6:29 (NLT) Jesus told them, “This is the work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent.”

John 6:40 (NLT) For it is my Father’s will that all who see his Son and believe in him should have eternal life. I will raise them up at the last day.”

John 6:57 (NLT) I live because of the living Father who sent me; in the same way, anyone who partakes of me will live because of me.

John 10:9 (NLT) Yes, I am the gate. Those who come in through me will be saved. They will come and go freely and will find good pastures.

John 14:6 (NLT) Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Acts 2:21 (NLT) But everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’

Acts 4:11-12 (NLT) 11 For Jesus is the one referred to in the Scriptures, where it says, ‘The stone that you builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.’ 12 There is salvation in no one else! God has given no other name under heaven by which we must be saved.”

Acts 10:43 (NLT) He is the one all the prophets testified about, saying that everyone who believes in him will have their sins forgiven through his name.”

Acts 15:11 (NLT) We believe that we are all saved in the same way, by the grace of the Lord Jesus.”

Acts 16:31 (NLT) They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved, along with everyone in your household.”

Romans 10:4 (NLT) For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

Romans 10:9 (NLT) If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:13 (NLT) For “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Ephesians 2:8 (NLT) God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

There is no “process of salvation”. Salvation happens at the moment you believe in Christ Jesus and what he was has done for us.

Do I really need to post the numerous Scripture passages that place salvation in the past, present, and future? That's a process.

 

[Special Revelation]

The process of salvation: - Romans 8:28-39

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us?
He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?

Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.
Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Just as it is written,
"FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers,
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Vassal]

Do I really need to post the numerous Scripture passages that place salvation in the past, present, and future? That's a process.

Sure, go ahead.

 

[Runlikethewind]

There is no “process of salvation”. Salvation happens at the moment you believe in Christ Jesus and what he was has done for us. Sometimes a person must go through “a process” before they finally believe, but until they believe in him they are not saved. Salvation cannot be lost, though sometimes a person can act as though they believe but when faced with a big choice they do not choose Christ because they never did believe. Just because a person goes to church, does good deeds, prays, etc.., does not mean they really believe, though from an outside perspective it may look like they do because faith does cause a person to do these things. It is very hard to know it someone really does believe or if they are just going through the motions if you do not know the person well, and sometimes even if you do, but once you get to know a person well you should be able to see whether their primary concern is to please themselves or to please God.

So then no one can really know whether or not they are saved since no matter how hard they believe and no matter how hard they try there is always the possibility that in the future they may be faced with a big choice and not choose Christ. In which case it does not seem sufficient that a person simply proclaim that they believe in Christ and what he did, they must believe it with their whole being and once they have done so they can never change their mind? Seems to me like people change their mind on things all the time and so no one can be certain their belief in Christ is sincere until they die, it would seem. And I have always thought that salvation was a certainty for most protestants, accept Jesus and you know you are saved. But, given what you have said, can anyone ever know or be certain that they have truly accepted Jesus? Have I misunderstood what you are saying here?

 

[Special Revelation]

So then no one can really know whether or not they are saved since no matter how hard they believe and no matter how hard they try there is always the possibility that in the future they may be faced with a big choice and not choose Christ. In which case it does not seem sufficient that a person simply proclaim that they believe in Christ and what he did, they must believe it with their whole being and once they have done so they can never change their mind? Seems to me like people change their mind on things all the time and so no one can be certain their belief in Christ is sincere until they die, it would seem. And I have always thought that salvation was a certainty for most protestants, accept Jesus and you know you are saved. But, given what you have said, can anyone ever know or be certain that they have truly accepted Jesus? Have I misunderstood what you are saying here?

I think you have described contemporary protestant theology that has deviated from historical protestant theology. What do you think about the chain of salvation in Romans 8? This is the biblical process of salvation starting with God, prior to the foundation of the word. Everything starts with whom God foreknew. The word foreknew is a noun as compared to a verb.

For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

You will find the giants of the Protestant Reformation hold to a view of salvation described in Romans 8. In addition, Catholic Monk Saint Augustine had a big influence on most of the giants of the Protestant Reformation. We are back to the central issue of biblical justification. Maybe you can share the Roman Catholic understanding of the doctrine of justification found in Romans chapter 3 and chapter 4.