Roman Catholic: Dissent

[RUone2]

As far as I know the last time a Pope made an infallible statement was when he proclaimed the
assumption of the Virgin Mary" Not every word from a Pope is considered infallible, he must speak from the chair of Peter to Rome and to the world and pronounce it as




dogma correct me if I'm wrong.







dogma

 

[Quiddity]

That is correct, without going into further detail. I'm always tempted to do so but I will provide articles instead for those wishing to go deeper into it.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0109bt.asp

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=86

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=4

Was this a question leading to something?

 

[Runlikethewind]

This look like an old post but since I am new I'll throw in my two cents...

I am not a big fan of liberal catholicism at all but I think that we must be able to discuss the theology of church teaching openly and charitably. As far as infallible statements go I think the list is very small. I do not think that papal encyclicals count for infallible doctrine. As an example I sight the case of the late Fr. Leonard Feeney of what is now St. Benedict Abbey in MA. Back in the late 40's early 50's Fr. Feeny's group at St. Benedicts center in the town of Harvard began teaching that extra eclasia nula salum (I might not have spelled that right, or Fr. Feeny's name for that matter...) that is the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Catholic church. They sighted several papal statements (Pope Boniface in the 14th century I believe) to the support of the doctrine. They where subsequently censured and eventually excommunicated, the whole lot of them. Now it was always said that this excommunication was about disciplinary issues and not a matter of doctrine.

I think the example that we have to take from this is that when presenting an opinion on church teaching we must respect the authority of the holy office. The Church does not censure or excommunicate or remove someone from a Catholic news paper without giving plenty of warnings first. There is theological discussion and then there is outright dissention, the later should not be tolerated.

It is also important to remember that the Church is reactive and not proactive. The Church does not generally declare doctrine as infallible until it faces serious dissention. The question of female ordination is an issue that is growing so much that perhaps one day the Church will officially declare that it cannot be. I think we are about one step away from that. The encyclical of John Paul II and teachings throughout the history of the church make a solid foundation for the dogma to be declared infallibly. Without further study of the issue however, I will not say that it has been declared infallibly. (although I totaly agree with it)

 

[athanasius]

This look like an old post but since I am new I'll throw in my two cents...

I am not a big fan of liberal catholicism at all but I think that we must be able to discuss the theology of church teaching openly and charitably. As far as infallible statements go I think the list is very small. I do not think that papal encyclicals count for infallible doctrine. As an example I sight the case of the late Fr. Leonard Feeney of what is now St. Benedict Abbey in MA. Back in the late 40's early 50's Fr. Feeny's group at St. Benedicts center in the town of Harvard began teaching that extra eclasia nula salum (I might not have spelled that right, or Fr. Feeny's name for that matter...) that is the teaching that there can be no salvation outside the Catholic church. They sighted several papal statements (Pope Boniface in the 14th century I believe) to the support of the doctrine. They where subsequently censured and eventually excommunicated, the whole lot of them. Now it was always said that this excommunication was about disciplinary issues and not a matter of doctrine.

I think the example that we have to take from this is that when presenting an opinion on church teaching we must respect the authority of the holy office. The Church does not censure or excommunicate or remove someone from a Catholic news paper without giving plenty of warnings first. There is theological discussion and then there is outright dissention, the later should not be tolerated.

It is also important to remember that the Church is reactive and not proactive. The Church does not generally declare doctrine as infallible until it faces serious dissention. The question of female ordination is an issue that is growing so much that perhaps one day the Church will officially declare that it cannot be. I think we are about one step away from that. The encyclical of John Paul II and teachings throughout the history of the church make a solid foundation for the dogma to be declared infallibly. Without further study of the issue however, I will not say that it has been declared infallibly. (although I totaly agree with it)

The issue of no women priest was not infallibly declared by the Pope. But it is a infallible truth. The universal and ordinary magisterium of the church has infallibly taught this and the Pope JPII and Cardinal Ratizinger(Now Papa Benny) recognized that and signed off on it. No infallible truth can ever change whether it is declared by the pope or the magisterium. I hope that helps.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

 

[Runlikethewind]

The issue of no women priest was not infallibly declared by the Pope. But it is a infallible truth. The universal and ordinary magisterium of the church has infallibly taught this and the Pope JPII and Cardinal Ratizinger(Now Papa Benny) recognized that and signed off on it. No infallible truth can ever change whether it is declared by the pope or the magisterium. I hope that helps.

In Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

That does help, thanks. I guess It just seems that some things, for example the imaculate conception, have been clearly beyond doubt infallibly defined while other issues such as female ordination don't seem so clearly labeled as infalible teachings. You would think that if they where there wouldn't be such a debate about it. I would of course agree that the male only preisthood is dogma that cannot change but if the pope where to come out and say it, unequivicolly....unless JPII did say that.... in fact I am going to look up the encyclical myself and find out before I start saying that he hasn't already said it. I'll try and find it but if you know what the title is that would be another big help.

Thanks, PeAcE

 

[athanasius]

That does help, thanks. I guess It just seems that some things, for example the imaculate conception, have been clearly beyond doubt infallibly defined while other issues such as female ordination don't seem so clearly labeled as infalible teachings. You would think that if they where there wouldn't be such a debate about it. I would of course agree that the male only preisthood is dogma that cannot change but if the pope where to come out and say it, unequivicolly....unless JPII did say that.... in fact I am going to look up the encyclical myself and find out before I start saying that he hasn't already said it. I'll try and find it but if you know what the title is that would be another big help.

Thanks, PeAcE

I believe its called Ordinatio Sacerdotalis You can read it here
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/w-ordination.htm

God bless you in Jesus through Mary,
Athanasius

 

[Quiddity]

If either of you haven't already, I highly recommend reading both of these articles:

The Hierarchy of Truths and the Truth
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=86

Dissent from The Splendor of Truth
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/most/getwork.cfm?worknum=191

Enjoy and peace be with you both.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Thanks for the input. The more I read about infallibility the more I realize just how ignorant I am. I'm pretty sure I understand the concept of infallibility in theory, but the practical application of it is not so clear to me. The papal letter seems pretty clear about the issue of the male priesthood but just for the sake of, balance perhaps, I decided to check out an article from a website that supports female ordination to see their take on the papal letter. They seem to think that it was not put forth in such a way as to be called an infallible decleration. Here is the article if your intrested, http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/nientied.asp personally it sounds like they are grasping at straws....

Anyway I've got a lot of learning to do on this subject. If I have any more questions I will not hesitate to ask you've been a big help so far.

 

[athanasius]

Thanks for the input. The more I read about infallibility the more I realize just how ignorant I am. I'm pretty sure I understand the concept of infallibility in theory, but the practical application of it is not so clear to me. The papal letter seems pretty clear about the issue of the male priesthood but just for the sake of, balance perhaps, I decided to check out an article from a website that supports female ordination to see their take on the papal letter. They seem to think that it was not put forth in such a way as to be called an infallible decleration. Here is the article if your intrested, http://www.womenpriests.org/teaching/nientied.asp personally it sounds like they are grasping at straws....

Anyway I've got a lot of learning to do on this subject. If I have any more questions I will not hesitate to ask you've been a big help so far.

Be weary of Womenpriest.org They are a dissenting group and dissent is never permitted in the Church. It also shows their lack of faith in Christ Church.

 

[Runlikethewind]

Be weary of Womenpriest.org They are a dissenting group and dissent is never permitted in the Church. It also shows their lack of faith in Christ Church.

Of course, I was only intrested in how they would respond to such clear documentation of the Churches teaching stated in the papal letter Ordinato Sacerdotalis. Their argument seems almost to say that as long as someone in the church disagreed (namely them) to a teaching then it could not be proclaimed infallible because that requires the consent of all the faithfull. Or at least that is how I read it. Anyway its not a site I frequent or take seriously.

 

[Quiddity]

Of course, I was only intrested in how they would respond to such clear documentation of the Churches teaching stated in the papal letter Ordinato Sacerdotalis. Their argument seems almost to say that as long as someone in the church disagreed (namely them) to a teaching then it could not be proclaimed infallible because that requires the consent of all the faithfull. Or at least that is how I read it. Anyway its not a site I frequent or take seriously.

That seems to be more on par with other religious systems, but not Catholicism. Just remember that it is the intention of the Church to be conciliar (work with all of it's parts), but it doesn't necessarily have to. Sometimes the Pope didn't even attend Ecumenical Councils and his ideas weren't even part of the equation. But one thing is for sure, his approval was always seeked. You won't find any Ecumenical Council that wasn't approved by the Pope. Even the 7 Ecumenical Councils we agree with Eastern Orthodoxy just happen to be approved by the Pope.

 

[athanasius]

That seems to be more on par with other religious systems, but not Catholicism. Just remember that it is the intention of the Church to be conciliar (work with all of it's parts), but it doesn't necessarily have to. Sometimes the Pope didn't even attend Ecumenical Councils and his ideas weren't even part of the equation. But one thing is for sure, his approval was always seeked. You won't find any Ecumenical Council that wasn't approved by the Pope. Even the 7 Ecumenical Councils we agree with Eastern Orthodoxy just happen to be approved by the Pope.

Amen Victor!:yes: