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Roman Catholic: Dissent

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Christopher Baer

Thank you Victor. I appreciate your clarifications. Maybe I misunderstood Scott. I was talking about official proclamations. For example, the belief in the Popes infallibility is a defined dogma. I thought that Mr Scott was denying this in his last letter to me by saying he could show me where infallible statements have contradicted other infallible statements. Also the belief that Women cannot ever be priest seems to be a infallible declaration. The Pope himself proclaimed that Church has decreed it so and is not open to debate in Ordinatio sacredotalis.
Here is sample of what I am talking about:

“at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.”(JPII Ordinatio Sacerdotalis)

The congregation for the Doctrine of faith has said that this teaching is infallibly held by the universal and ordinary magisterium of the church:

“Concerning the Teaching Contained in
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis"


Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.

Responsum: In the affirmative.
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth INFAllIBLY by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith."

The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.”
source: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/w-ordination.htm#responsum

So the Pope himself approved that this was a infallible teaching that needed to be held by all the faithful and not up for any debate. This is why I was debating Scott and having problems with his teachings. He seems to teach that the official proclamations can be questioned. JPII and the Church seem really clear that there can’t be anymore debate on women's ordination because it is a infallible teaching.


So I was talking about official proclamations. I hope that helps. Thanks for your time Victor.

May God bless you always

In Jesus through Mary
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Hmmm.... seemed to have struck a nerve.

Uncertaindrummer, I am sorry that you feel the need to make personal judgements about me... I don't feel inclined to respond in the same way.

I love you and Christopher as brothers in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.... and my dear brother Victor seems to be the only one who understands that one can question our faith without ever having a DOUBT about our faith.

As I don't believe either of you two will ever give me the chance to explain myself in a charitable manner, free of personal attacks or judgments, I will simply bow out of this discussion .... unless one or both of you wishes to discuss this via PM.

God bless you all,
Scott
 

Ulver

Active Member
Scott, as a non-catholic theology student attending (well, I'm abroad at the moment) a Jesuit university all I have to say is.... Keep up the good fight of making people think. Bravo, sir, Bravo! : hamster :
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Thanks Ulver!

To think ......and to practice charity. As, Christians, we are called to love even our "enemies".... it is sad to see that even questioning the Chruch (even while being personally faithfull and submitting to their teachings) is seen by some as a justification to attack. God bless em.... I was once like them.

Peace be with you,
SCott
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Ahh the Jesuits. Used to be quite a good order. But look at thier universities today. George town U(a Jesuit run university) had many theologians and students who walked out on a prominant Cardinal's speech becuase he was telling these gradutates that they should avoid sexual promiscuity, homosexual acts, and birth control etc. Now compare George town with Fransiscan U who's students genreally lead a lifestyle in union with the Church. Oh and by the way the Fransciscan U of Steubenville DOES have THINKERS and SCHOLARS like DR SCOTT HAHN who challenges his students to THINK everyday. The only difference is that the Jesuits run colleges have abandoned there catholic identity. SLUH in my hometown certainly did. No one listended to the Holy Father when he called for Catholic colleges to teach and act Catholic. That is also why many of these Jesuit colleges have pro-chioce organizations and teach heresey. The professors claim TENOR
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
There are still a few good jesuits around like Fr Mitch Pacwa and a few others who are obedient to the magisterium. so the whole order hasn't gone to heck in a handbasket yet. Just wanted to clarify that.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Of coarse Ulver agrees with Scott. Ulver is a Agnostic by his own admission according ot his profile. His doctrine is one of uncertainty and a hermeneutic of suspicion anyway. Now try to get a Jesuit Catholic theologian like Fr Mitch Pacwa to agree with him.

Try to get some Opus Die Scholars to agree with him. They are all about charity and holiness but they are also about obedience and truth to the church teachings(Heb 13:17) If someone credible enough in the orthodox Catholic field will do this then we will have discussion.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
athanasius said:
Ahh the Jesuits. Used to be quite a good order.
Oh dear.... what a lack of respect and charity towards fellow Catholic Christians... seems to be a trend Christopher.... I continue to pray for you.

May we love as Christ loved,
Scott
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Dear Brother,

Its not lack of Charity to expose these certain orders for there untrue teachings. St Paul did this all the time in scripture, as well as Athansius and Jerome and Augustine did this too when they debated heretics abnd false teachers.

I love the Jesuits but I, like many good people, also love and believe in Jesus Catholic Church and her teachings. We love the Church becuase when we hear the Church speak on doctrine we are really hearing Christ our Lover and Lord himself speak to us(Lk 10:16). So when the Churches teachings are challenged we believe that Jesus teachings are challegned and that hurts us becuase we trust and love Jesus and his word. It would be more uncharitable to ignore the spiritual poverty and injustice that goes on with orders or groups that teach false teachings.

In Mary's love
Athanasius
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
athanasius said:
Its not lack of Charity to expose these certain orders for there untrue teachings.
It most certainly is....

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:


2477 Respect for the reputation of persons forbids every attitude and word likely to cause them unjust injury. He becomes guilty:
- of rash judgment who, even tacitly, assumes as true, without sufficient foundation, the moral fault of a neighbor;
- of detraction who, without objectively valid reason, discloses another's faults and failings to persons who did not know them;
- of calumny who, by remarks contrary to the truth, harms the reputation of others and gives occasion for false judgments concerning them.


2478 To avoid rash judgment, everyone should be careful to interpret insofar as possible his neighbor's thoughts, words, and deeds in a favorable way:

Every good Christian ought to be more ready to give a favorable interpretation to another's statement than to condemn it. But if he cannot do so, let him ask how the other understands it. And if the latter understands it badly, let the former correct him with love. If that does not suffice, let the Christian try all suitable ways to bring the other to a correct interpretation so that he may be saved.

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one's neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.


If you choose to correct a certain person, do so with Christian love and respect for the persons dignity as a fellow human being....and in this case as fellow Catholics and men consecrated in love to God as members of the clergy.

To lump up the majority of Jesuits this way causes more harm to the faith, in my opinion, than say, one person questioning infallibility. (cough... cough.... :D )
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Bless you my Friend.

I appreciate your council but I was not trying to destroy the reputation of my felloow Catholic Jesuits, They did that themselves as many people and thier won universities witnessed. If you would ahve read my post # 26 you would have seen that i admitted that there were many good jesuits.

I was talking about the general way the order has seen to go downhill latley, as many priest would admit. I am just not afraid to expose the false teachings that are found in or allowed to be taught at many Jesuit schools like the one in my hometown.

Apparently my bishop feels the same way becuase he brought im Ave Maria U to conteract the false teachings of these schools. I must respectfully dissagree with you not becuase i am uncharitable but becaquse I love the Church and have faith in her teachings(which are christ teachings Lk 10:16) but becuase I believe that you are being a bit hypersensitive. I belive you are taking out of context that passage in the Catechism aqnd applying it to this situation which my post #26 has already defused. I love the jesuits and all Catholics but I love the Church and its magisterium more.
In Jesus love,

Athanasius
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
athanasius said:
Bless you my Friend.
And you as well.....
I appreciate your council but I was not trying to destroy the reputation of my felloow Catholic Jesuits, They did that themselves ....
Hoo boy.... you just don't get it.... I love the Society of Jesus, and would not dare attack a group of people like that .... the order is made up of INDIVIDUALS.... made up of your fellow ROMAN CATHOLICS.... and the order is recognized by the POPE... who are you to impune their reputation? Repent, dear one... repent and confess.
I love the jesuits and all Catholics but I love the Church and its magisterium more.
WE are the Church.... all of us... sinners one and all... including the magisterium and our Holy Father.... I pray that you come to learn the Church is more than its leaders..... it is a love for its true leader, Jesus Christ.... and we are called to honor His wish to love our neighbor as ourselves.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Ulver said:
I know more then half of everyone on the internet seems to hate the site I'll link here, but I find it useful enough if I can't find a more direct source and I don't have the time to read three books.
Thanks very much for this.... the references from the CDF about Ordinatio Sacerdotalis not being an ex cathedra teaching was terrific.... hopefully, everyone reads the references.

S
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Dear in Christ Scott,

Thank you for your letter brother.

You said:

Nope... we represent ourselves... and when I quote official Church teachings, I make sure they are correctly annotated .... people know I am not the Pope.

My answer;

Yes you are correct in a officlial sense, we do not officially represent the Church on this board, but to a outsider or a protestant who is looking for a Catholic answer... well to some of “Them” we may because they are not going to go through all the study both of us have done. Again I have seen Many protestants confused by these type of teachings from liberal catholics. I have seen Protestants use this as a way of disproving the church in public debates and many have left because to them it makes sense. We may be the only ones that the Protestant here Catholic theology from. So we need to give them actual church teachings not just opinions of theologians. If they see us questioning the churches doctrine of infallibility or the Popes words they tend to really think to themselves “Why be Catholic”. I know this because I have talked to many people who have left the church because of this. I have seen first hand what bad teaching can do to the faith and spiritual life of uniformed Catholics who were taught this stuff. It happens in my hometown alot. and this is why our Bishop is trying to get some good programs in the town.

You said

It only confuses those with truimphalist attitudes....  because you have yet to ask me to explain... only attack... I believe in infallibility.... just not as you do.... if you would stop being a Papal "yes man" and try to love me as a brother, you might get to know me and what I believe... which, by the way, are 100% loyal to the teaching of the Church.

My answer;

It does not confuse those with just triumphilstilc attitudes. Most of the former Catholics I met left because of this kind of teaching. They were3 sick of being confused by watered down wishy washy teaching. They were lovers of Christ and humble people too but they couldn’t understand why thier teachers would teach against the official teachings of the church and say things like “infallibility isn’t necessarily true becuase its up top your conscious’ or teachers saying Birth control isn’t really sinful its up to your conscious and the church is just trying to get a strong hold on you”. This is one of the reasons why they left the church and also one of the barriers that blocks many from coming in to the Church. I have seen it firsthand. I am not a triumphalist, I just love Jesus Church and believe in Jesus Church because when the Church speaks on doctrine infallible or not, its really Christ speaking through the Church(Lk 10:16). And I love Jesus and want to be faithful to him and his Oracle(the Church).

You say you do believe in infallibility. I am very glad you do brother because Jesus taught it. But I have to call you on this one because you were saying earlier that Popes infallible statements have contradicted other infallible statements so how can you claim that you believe now.

When I said:


“The church has never made any errors in regards to its infallible Authoritative statements. Can you show me one infallible statement of the church that is contradicted by another”???

You said:


“Several.... even heretic Popes... but I'm sure you'll never believe that, so I won't try.”

My answer:

Again this is the same claim the protestant use and this claim has been disproven by many Catholic historians, apologist, and theologians. So how can you claim to believe this and still say you are in line with church teaching? If you do not believe in infallibility why be catholic at all? why believe the bible at all?

Again its when you make claims like these that protestants really jump on the band wagon and use this to their advantage in debates. It makes us catholics look bad.

Calling me a “Papal Yes Man” is just your way of trying to insult me. What happened to “Charity” brother Scott. I love you as a brother. If you say I am a Papal Yes man then so be it. The protestants used to call us Papist as a insult but I am proud to be a Papal yes man. Why? Because Jesus Christ established the Holy Infallible Papacy(Matt 16:13-19). and when we hear the voice of the Holy father, as well as the church we should here the voice of Christ(Lk 10:16, Matt 16:18) and be obedient and faithful to him. As scripture says:

“Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you”(Heb 13:17)

I love Jesus and want to be obedient to him, and his Holy Church, not myself. Again If the vatican congregation for the Doctrine of faith speaks on a issue of faith and says it is a issue of faith that has been declared infallible, and if the Pope agrees and promulgates this teaching and says there should be no more debate on this and its true, then it is a true doctrine and we as loyal Catholics should not debate on this anymore because this has been infallibly settlesd by the universal and ordinary magisterium of the Church and ratified by the Pope. Which the Holy Father agreed and promulgated.

So really if one objectively looks at either situation or the actual documents you may bring up, my brother in Christ, then one will clearly see this is just a case of disobedience and pride on the people not following the teaching. Which of coarse is like slapping Jesus and his truth and his papacy and magisterium in the face(He who rejects you rejects me Lk 10:16 again).

Again we need to listen tot he church, not wikipedia. I trust the documents of the church and its offices because christ established them. Not a website like wikipedia that anyone can go in and change at any time. Thanks you and God bless. Catholics need to get their theology from the churches teachings , her encyclicals, another documents, not wikipedia.

Scott I do love you as a brother in Christ, but I pray for you as well as ask you to pray for me.

Speaking the truth of Christ Catholic church in love,
Athansius
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
Again the article from wikipedia still asserts that he church taught that this is something tha is made infallible by the universal and ordinary magisterium of the church. I want to clarify the Pope didn't speak ex cathedra but he did ratify the statment made by Congregation for the doctrine of faith which did speak of it being infallible. Hence, its already a infallible doctrine, proclaimed by the highest leader in the church. To dissent from church teaching is never good(Heb 13:17, 2 tim 4:3-4, 1 tim 4:16, lk 10:16)
The univeral and ordinary magiserium has made it infallible so there is no argument. Amen.
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
athanasius said:
Again I have seen Many protestants confused by these type of teachings from liberal catholics.
Oy vey.... you talk like being Protestant is a disease.... don't you know that all those people who, without being members of the Roman Catholic Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, can be saved?

Most of the former Catholics I met left because of this kind of teaching.
Most of the former Catholics I met... including those on this board, left because of your kind of triumphalist, blind-devotion, and dogmatism.... I guess we just meet different kind of people.
But I have to call you on this one because you were saying earlier that Popes infallible statements have contradicted other infallible statements so how can you claim that you believe now.
Yep.... I know exactly what I said.... you just don't understand what infallibility means to me... and my opinion does not matter to you.... any human being not part of the ordinary magesterium of the Church should just shut up and submit, right? Holy dark ages batman! :cover:
Again this is the same claim the protestant use and this claim has been disproven by many Catholic historians, apologist, and theologians.
You've yet to ask me what my argument is, but yet you are sure that it has been "disproven".... do you have special abilities that I'm unaware of?
So how can you claim to believe this and still say you are in line with church teaching?
Because it's the truth.
If you do not believe in infallibility why be catholic at all?
That is the saddest, most pitiful statement I have read here in two years.... God bless you brother.... If you really don't know the answer to this, than I can't help you.
Calling me a “Papal Yes Man” is just your way of trying to insult me. What happened to “Charity” brother Scott.
Charity does not exclude fraternal correction... and I truly believe you do more damage to our Church then you know with your theology. Your "I love you...brother" stuff is betrayed by the content of your posts and your arguments with other posters.... and when you post a private PM, you open yourself up to serious questions about your integrity.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Let me know when both of you have the patience to understand each other, so I can jump in.
 

athanasius

Well-Known Member
I just wanted to tell Scott my brotehr in Christ a message of love and charity.

Dear in Christ Scott, Computers are people too!!!!!!

Thank you and bless you always.
A
 
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