athanasius
Well-Known Member
Christopher Baer
Thank you Victor. I appreciate your clarifications. Maybe I misunderstood Scott. I was talking about official proclamations. For example, the belief in the Popes infallibility is a defined dogma. I thought that Mr Scott was denying this in his last letter to me by saying he could show me where infallible statements have contradicted other infallible statements. Also the belief that Women cannot ever be priest seems to be a infallible declaration. The Pope himself proclaimed that Church has decreed it so and is not open to debate in Ordinatio sacredotalis.
Here is sample of what I am talking about:
“at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.”(JPII Ordinatio Sacerdotalis)
The congregation for the Doctrine of faith has said that this teaching is infallibly held by the universal and ordinary magisterium of the church:
“Concerning the Teaching Contained in
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis"
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth INFAllIBLY by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith."
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.”
source: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/w-ordination.htm#responsum
So the Pope himself approved that this was a infallible teaching that needed to be held by all the faithful and not up for any debate. This is why I was debating Scott and having problems with his teachings. He seems to teach that the official proclamations can be questioned. JPII and the Church seem really clear that there can’t be anymore debate on women's ordination because it is a infallible teaching.
So I was talking about official proclamations. I hope that helps. Thanks for your time Victor.
May God bless you always
In Jesus through Mary
Thank you Victor. I appreciate your clarifications. Maybe I misunderstood Scott. I was talking about official proclamations. For example, the belief in the Popes infallibility is a defined dogma. I thought that Mr Scott was denying this in his last letter to me by saying he could show me where infallible statements have contradicted other infallible statements. Also the belief that Women cannot ever be priest seems to be a infallible declaration. The Pope himself proclaimed that Church has decreed it so and is not open to debate in Ordinatio sacredotalis.
Here is sample of what I am talking about:
“at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.
Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.”(JPII Ordinatio Sacerdotalis)
The congregation for the Doctrine of faith has said that this teaching is infallibly held by the universal and ordinary magisterium of the church:
“Concerning the Teaching Contained in
Ordinatio Sacerdotalis"
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Dubium: Whether the teaching that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women, which is presented in the Apostolic Letter Ordinatio Sacerdotalis to be held definitively, is to be understood as belonging to the deposit of faith.
Responsum: In the affirmative.
This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth INFAllIBLY by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith."
The Sovereign Pontiff John Paul II, at the Audience granted to the undersigned Cardinal Prefect, approved this Reply, adopted in the ordinary session of this Congregation, and ordered it to be published.”
source: http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/w-ordination.htm#responsum
So the Pope himself approved that this was a infallible teaching that needed to be held by all the faithful and not up for any debate. This is why I was debating Scott and having problems with his teachings. He seems to teach that the official proclamations can be questioned. JPII and the Church seem really clear that there can’t be anymore debate on women's ordination because it is a infallible teaching.
So I was talking about official proclamations. I hope that helps. Thanks for your time Victor.
May God bless you always
In Jesus through Mary