Rich Ministers

[DayRaven]

Poverty often includes poor nutrition, violent environments, an unsteady home life, drugs, and little-to-no hope of ever escaping.

Another factor in the west is that what we call "poverty" is paradise to many. In 2011 London was gripped by riots that social commentators here tried to pass off as some kind of marxist uprising of the disenfranchised. That was until it was found looters were mostly nicking TV's, mobiles, trainers and sports clothes. Welfare breeds dependency and, for unscrupulous politicians, votes. Instead of sending the rioters to prison (though most weren't) they should have sent them out to Africa or Asia for six months to see what real desperation is like.

We're even blind to the fact that, in this largely free free-market capitalist economy, money, up to a certain amount, does buy a tremendous amount of happiness

There are studies that suggest, beyond a certain level of wealth, money is irrelevant to happiness. The reality is, though, that if you want to eat regular meals and have a roof over your head you need money. Money may not make you completely happy but it does help you sleep at night.

Rich people are unlikely to enter the kingdom, because their wealth is a corrupting factor in some way.

I think the thrust of Jesus' point was that you should be prepared to lose everything and give up anything to serve God, that includes family, friends, status, reputation, as well as money.

 

[Twilight Hue]

If money is evil why do churches always want it?

Because money is the only thing that will ever save them.

Certainly not God, and they know it.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Then why didn't he say stop viewing your wealth as an idol? That would have cleared it up. Why would Jesus be so coy about eternal salvation?

It seems obvious that Jesus meant what he said: Rich people are unlikely to enter the kingdom, because their wealth is a corrupting factor in some way.

He was inviting a man who trusted his money above all else to put his full trust in the Lord. What better way to do that than to remove the obstacle.

 

[gsa]

He was inviting a man who trusted his money above all else to put his full trust in the Lord. What better way to do that than to remove the obstacle.

If that was all, then why did he speak of rich men in general, and not just that one man? I mean, it is amazing that you can twist the plain meaning this way. Almost like you have political commitments that come before your Jesus...

 

[BSM1]

I'm all for a wealthy pastor so long as it isn't "earned" through the tithes. If he's independently wealthy more power to him.

Shouldn't he have been spending this earning time helping others? Isn't this what Yeshua was describing when the young rich man could not bear to part with his wealth to obtain a greater spiritual reward?

 

[CMike]

Jesus didn't really come across as hostile toward anything outside of the "holier than thou" religious leaders of His time (He compared them to tombs, beautiful outside and full of dead, rotten things) and those who corrupted the Temple.

Jesus should have been the last person to accuse anyone of anything.

 

[CMike]

If money is evil why do churches always want it?

I guess they are the true hypocrites.

Frankly, you need money to run an institution.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Okay...so I was driving home last night and I was listening to the Bob Dutko show.

His topic was if it okay for a minister to be rich.

Some of the greatest biblical figures were very wealthy.

Abvraham, had more money than the king. Issac and Jacob were wealthy too.

King's David and Solomon were wealthy as well.

If you trust in God, exactly what do you need to save a whole bunch of money for?

Also if you have money you can help people with it. You can help the poor, build schools, etc. You can't do that if you don't have money.

You also can't do that until you spend the money.

There is a story of a guy who was rich and wanted to close his factory and devote his life to learning Torah. He asked the rabbi about it. His rabbi told him no, because then all of those employees would be out of work.

What did the rabbi say to do with the factory's profits?

Also, there are other options. Just as many people would have been employed if he gave shares to his employees and they ran the factory as a collective while he studied the Torah.

Money isn't evil. Money allows you to do good things with it.

Again: only when you spend it. Hoarded money helps nobody.

 

[CMike]

If you trust in God, exactly what do you need to save a whole bunch of money for?


You also can't do that until you spend the money.


What did the rabbi say to do with the factory's profits?

Also, there are other options. Just as many people would have been employed if he gave shares to his employees and they ran the factory as a collective while he studied the Torah.
y.

Why should he give away his company? He created it and built it. He took the risks. The money is his for his retirement or to use as he chooses.

The man can do whatever he wants with HIS profits.

 

[McBell]

What do Christians think about Jesus turning down the rich but virtuous man in Mark 10? I would think for someone trying to follow Jesus it would be problematic to be rich.

Why did Jesus turn him down?

 

[CMike]

Sounds like he was a communist.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Why should he give away his company? He created it and built it. He took the risks. The money is his for his retirement or to use as he chooses.

The man can do whatever he wants with HIS profits.

Of course, but your story assumed that the man didn't want to own the factory any more, remember?

My point was that your story is based on an illogical position: the rabbi said that he shouldn't close the factory because it would put people out of work, but there are plenty of ways that the man could end up not owning a factory and have the time to study the Torah that don't end up with a factory full of employees out of work.

Edit: ... but I'm really interested to hear your answer to my first question. Why would someone who puts their trust in God need to save up lots of money? If he trusts in God to provide, what is he preparing for?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I always thought the point Jesus was trying to make is that the man viewed his wealth as an idol, he trusted in it and Jesus was challenging him to give up that idol. I don't think he was making a blanket statement about wealth.

I think it had more to do with how the Kingdom of God is supposed to turn earthly hierarchies on their head. "First shall be last and last shall be first." Someone who's had earthly success enough to amass a fortune wouldn't qualify as "last" on Earth.

 

[CMike]

Of course, but your story assumed that the man didn't want to own the factory any more, remember?

My point was that your story is based on an illogical position: the rabbi said that he shouldn't close the factory because it would put people out of work, but there are plenty of ways that the man could end up not owning a factory and have the time to study the Torah that don't end up with a factory full of employees out of work.

Edit: ... but I'm really interested to hear your answer to my first question. Why would someone who puts their trust in God need to save up lots of money? If he trusts in God to provide, what is he preparing for?

This story explains it well.

God Will Save Me

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This story explains it well.

God Will Save Me

So... because God will send you a car, motorboat, and helicopter when you need it, you need to buy a car, helicopter, and motorboat right now?

 

[CMike]

That he was able to save up that money is because of?

G-D helps, but he expects you to do your part.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

That he was able to save up that money is because of?

It was because he was keeping more than he needed to meet his needs and so he didn't spend as much as could have on other things, such as charitable giving.

 

[CMike]

It was because he was keeping more than he needed to meet his needs and so he didn't spend as much as could have on other things, such as charitable giving.

With the help of G-D.

Money based on what is "needed" is a communist concept not a free market one.

 

[Jumi]

Are free market and communism the only options?

 

[gsa]

With the help of G-D.

Money based on what is "needed" is a communist concept not a free market one.

I think it is safe to say that Christianity is difficult to reconcile with free market economics, notwithstanding the positions of certain Protestants in the U.S.