Resurrection on trial

[Reverend Rick]

Let's examine the scriptures.
When one reads the bible and examines the scripture about the resurrection, we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all giving accounts of the resurrection.

Is there any conflicting accounts about this event?

Just exactly who was there at the tomb when the body was missing?

What happened at the tomb when this was discovered?

If Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not actually there when the body was discovered missing, There accounts of this event which they write in the bible is not written from first hand knowledge.

When we read in the bible the words written in red, they are suppose to be the exact words spoken by Jesus. If Jesus tells Mary Magdalene and she tells Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and they write this down, it is third hand information. Can we be sure it is the exact words from Jesus?

I'm not saying that Mary Magdalene lied. I am questioning that she quoted Jesus exactly word for word. She was very upset. She saw angels. She saw Jesus resurrected before he went to the father. She spoke to someone she did not recognise and thought he was the Gardner.

Now say you are one of the apostles. Mary Magdalene comes to you with all this information. Do you just calmly write this all down to get it correct, or do you look at her with disbelief and write this down later after you seen Jesus resurrected for yourself? Now you have even more stuff to remember and write down verbatim.

Mathew says: It was just Mary Magdalene and Mary, Jesus's mother on this trip. They see one angel roll away the stone covering the tomb. Pilate's guards are freaked out and could not move while the angel calmly sits on the stone and tells them Jesus is not here, go tell the disciples. Jesus meets them on the road back to tell the disciples. This is when they first see resurected Jesus according to Matthew.

Marks says: That the two Mary's AND Salome make this trip to the tomb. Now there are three people on this journey. The three of them are wondering how they will remove the stone and find it all ready removed. This time they go inside the tomb unlike the last account about an angel who sent them on there way, there is a man in white sitting where Jesus was laid just to the right INSIDE the tomb. On the way back it's just the two of them. What happened to Salome? Anyway, they see Jesus and are told about getting everyone together at Galilee.

Lukes says: The women got there and the stone was rolled away already and they went inside and there was TWO men dressed in white this time. The two Mary's where there and Joanna and other unnamed women. This time Peter runs down to the tomb to check.

John says: The stone was all ready removed and it is only Mary Magdalene this time and she goes to Peter. Peter comes back with other disciples and sees Jesus gone and knows what is up and they all leave this time. Mary Magdalene stays behind and sees the two angels in white AND Jesus and speaks with him in the tomb. In this story he has not left to see the father yet.

Now, physical Jesus was not in the tomb when the disciples came to see what Mary Magdalene had told them was true. They leave and she looks back inside and now he is in there with two angels.

Did she see a physical Jesus or a spiritual one? This physical body was all over the place popping in and out all day long!

If you were a jury and heard all this conflicting testimony what would you conclude?

Peter was there that day, but says nothing himself about this event in the bible.

What say you?

 

[Reverend Rick]

To the top!

 

[Reverend Rick]

No one wants to comment on this?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Let's examine the scriptures and apply the rules of law and testimony.

I'm afraid this doesn't make much sense. The Gospels were not written as court testimony for a modern or ancient court of law.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm afraid this doesn't make much sense. The Gospels were not written as court testimony for a modern or ancient court of law.

Ok, I'm going to change this thread some.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Don't change it. It made perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is NO ONE COMMENTED with an opinion on the matter.

I'm not sure what response you are looking for here. "Some" christians will gloss over this with goody...goody..feel good ...statements...like christ was sent to teach man how to love one another and that is the message of the NT.....

Not only does the information in the NT conflict with one another but as we read a little further to where Saul/Paul starts a new religion predicated on "his" lies.

I think all of it is "The Greatest Story Ever Told"

 

[Reverend Rick]

Don't change it. It made perfect sense. What doesn't make sense is NO ONE COMMENTED with an opinion on the matter.

I'm not sure what response you are looking for here. "Some" christians will gloss over this with goody...goody..feel good ...statements...like christ was sent to teach man how to love one another and that is the message of the NT.....

Not only does the information in the NT conflict with one another but as we read a little further to where Saul/Paul starts a new religion predicated on "his" lies.

I think all of it is "The Greatest Story Ever Told"

Does anyone ever wonder why Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene more so than the disciples? When Peter and other disciples go to the tomb, Jesus does not appear but as soon as they leave, he appears again! Why does he say, go get the disciples and when they come not appear to them?

Christianity is based more on what Mary Magdalene sees than the disciples.

 

[UnityNow101]

And yet people still blaspheme the name of Mary of Magdela by insisting that she was a whore when it doesn't say that in the Bible! Without Mary Magdeline, the Resurrection story may have never been told.

 

[love]

What does your heart tell you? Do you see Jesus Chirst as a man whose short ministry ended on the cross in death, or do you see Jesus Christ as someone who spoke with authority. Who never backed down from the authority He had, but willingly went to His death, thou He could have called on legions of angels, only to take it up again thereby conquering death that we all face. Through His sacrifice death and sin no longer has a hold on mankind. That man has been freed to have an abundant life. That God is not a distant diety , but knows the pain and humility that mankind has suffered and has suffered it with us. I do not know what death is. What darkness lurks there. But I am confident it has been conquered for me.

 

[Reverend Rick]

What does your heart tell you? Do you see Jesus Chirst as a man whose short ministry ended on the cross in death, or do you see Jesus Christ as someone who spoke with authority. Who never backed down from the authority He had, but willingly went to His death, thou He could have called on legions of angels, only to take it up again thereby conquering death that we all face. Through His sacrifice death and sin no longer has a hold on mankind. That man has been freed to have an abundant life. That God is not a distant diety , but knows the pain and humility that mankind has suffered and has suffered it with us. I do not know what death is. What darkness lurks there. But I am confident it has been conquered for me.

My heart tells me Jesus is the son of God. My intellect tells me we have a skewed account of the facts.

 

[Comprehend]

Christianity is based more on what Mary Magdalene sees than the disciples.

No it isn't, Christ spent a great deal of time after his resurrection talking and teaching the apostles and his disciples. Are you forgetting?

 

[Reverend Rick]

No it isn't, Christ spent a great deal of time after his resurrection talking and teaching the apostles and his disciples. Are you forgetting?

Thanks for posting, I was hoping we could get further into the discussion. I'm not forgetting, lets examine this.

Post to follow....

 

[Reverend Rick]

Mathew 28:9
And they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

St. John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father; but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my father, and your father; and to my God and your God.

Could Jesus be touched? John says no, Mathew says he was touched. Don't tell me he already went to heaven and came back.

Luke 24:51
And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up to heaven.

Jesus goes to heaven after speaking at Galilee.

Now read Mathew 28:17-20
Now read Mark 16:15-20

The words in red are suppose to be the exact words of Jesus. Why would Mark leave out this snake, poison, and tongues speech? Was it not important?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

My heart tells me Jesus is the son of God. My intellect tells me we have a skewed account of the facts.

Then you should submit other critical data to your intellect.

One of them would be to compare how other ancients (preferably those writing in Greek around the first century) retold historial events and determine to what degree an ancient can embellish on the retelling of an historical event. You'll see that the ancients tolerated and expected embellishment, and history is not the bland retelling of facts but the presentation of an historical story - particularly in the East.

A thorough reading of Josephus and Philo and their interpreters are in order, as well as Cassius Dio, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Tacitus, Seutonius, and ancient writers such as Cicero, Pliny the Elder, Pliny the Younger, Plutarch, and Seneca. That should give you a fairly well-rounded idea of the first century context of the writers of the Gospel, from both a Hellenistic Jewish and Greco-Roman perspective. Several of these writers tell the same stories, and you can compare their consistency, and determine if you want to accept or reject critical aspects of Jewish and Greco-Roman history based on consistency and apply the same interpretative method to the New Testament.

Then you can put the ressurrection on trial.

However, the ressurrection story is something that has to be accepted by faith, anyway. If all the stories matched perfectly, it would be evidence that all of the accounts had the same source, which does not prove that the ressurrection actually occured. It just means that one source wrote it down, that's all.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I have a friend who was born in Greece and lives here in the states now. He speaks fluent Greek and English and we study the bible together. I use Strong's dictionary and study the root meaning of words.

What troubles me is the resurrection is the foundation of Christianity. We have precious little to study here. I'm not picking the story apart on the small things, but this story has blatant contradictions.

Matthew talks about an earth quake. Mark, Luke and John might have wanted to mention this. All four are taking Mary Magdalene words and obviously are misquoting her because we cannot even get the number of angels right or their in or out of the tomb when she sees them.

Then we use red letters to quote Christ and eleven people together cannot get the story straight.

 

[roli]

Let's examine the scriptures.
When one reads the bible and examines the scripture about the resurrection, we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all giving accounts of the resurrection.

Is there any conflicting accounts about this event?

Just exactly who was there at the tomb when the body was missing?

What happened at the tomb when this was discovered?

If Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not actually there when the body was discovered missing, There accounts of this event which they write in the bible is not written from first hand knowledge.

When we read in the bible the words written in red, they are suppose to be the exact words spoken by Jesus. If Jesus tells Mary Magdalene and she tells Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and they write this down, it is third hand information. Can we be sure it is the exact words from Jesus?

I'm not saying that Mary Magdalene lied. I am questioning that she quoted Jesus exactly word for word. She was very upset. She saw angels. She saw Jesus resurrected before he went to the father. She spoke to someone she did not recognise and thought he was the Gardner.

Now say you are one of the apostles. Mary Magdalene comes to you with all this information. Do you just calmly write this all down to get it correct, or do you look at her with disbelief and write this down later after you seen Jesus resurrected for yourself? Now you have even more stuff to remember and write down verbatim.

Mathew says: It was just Mary Magdalene and Mary, Jesus's mother on this trip. They see one angel roll away the stone covering the tomb. Pilate's guards are freaked out and could not move while the angel calmly sits on the stone and tells them Jesus is not here, go tell the disciples. Jesus meets them on the road back to tell the disciples. This is when they first see resurected Jesus according to Matthew.

Marks says: That the two Mary's AND Salome make this trip to the tomb. Now there are three people on this journey. The three of them are wondering how they will remove the stone and find it all ready removed. This time they go inside the tomb unlike the last account about an angel who sent them on there way, there is a man in white sitting where Jesus was laid just to the right INSIDE the tomb. On the way back it's just the two of them. What happened to Salome? Anyway, they see Jesus and are told about getting everyone together at Galilee.

Lukes says: The women got there and the stone was rolled away already and they went inside and there was TWO men dressed in white this time. The two Mary's where there and Joanna and other unnamed women. This time Peter runs down to the tomb to check.

John says: The stone was all ready removed and it is only Mary Magdalene this time and she goes to Peter. Peter comes back with other disciples and sees Jesus gone and knows what is up and they all leave this time. Mary Magdalene stays behind and sees the two angels in white AND Jesus and speaks with him in the tomb. In this story he has not left to see the father yet.

Now, physical Jesus was not in the tomb when the disciples came to see what Mary Magdalene had told them was true. They leave and she looks back inside and now he is in there with two angels.

Did she see a physical Jesus or a spiritual one? This physical body was all over the place popping in and out all day long!

If you were a jury and heard all this conflicting testimony what would you conclude?

Peter was there that day, but says nothing himself about this event in the bible.

What say you?

Well,Jesus lived,built relationships with those around him,he actually was a threat to the one's who placed him on the cross,yet he died ,rose again ,did miracles and reappeared to those same witnesses after his death, on one occassion he appeared to over 500 people,not to mention they witnessed him ascend into heaven and the angel varified that in Acts.
If the resurrection is proved false and in question then the whole of Christianity follows,that to me is a ploy from the enemy.
And not to be even questioned,especially to those who know Christ because it is the spirit that verifies all of the evidence that the world is still in question over.
To me the proof is in and the case is closed

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

Let's examine the scriptures.
When one reads the bible and examines the scripture about the resurrection, we have Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all giving accounts of the resurrection.

1. Is there any conflicting accounts about this event?

2. Just exactly who was there at the tomb when the body was missing?

3. What happened at the tomb when this was discovered?

4. If Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were not actually there when the body was discovered missing, There accounts of this event which they write in the bible is not written from first hand knowledge.

5. When we read in the bible the words written in red, they are suppose to be the exact words spoken by Jesus. If Jesus tells Mary Magdalene and she tells Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and they write this down, it is third hand information. Can we be sure it is the exact words from Jesus?

I'm not saying that Mary Magdalene lied. I am questioning that she quoted Jesus exactly word for word. She was very upset. She saw angels. She saw Jesus resurrected before he went to the father. She spoke to someone she did not recognise and thought he was the Gardner.

Now say you are one of the apostles. Mary Magdalene comes to you with all this information. Do you just calmly write this all down to get it correct, or do you look at her with disbelief and write this down later after you seen Jesus resurrected for yourself? Now you have even more stuff to remember and write down verbatim.

Mathew says: It was just Mary Magdalene and Mary, Jesus's mother on this trip. They see one angel roll away the stone covering the tomb. Pilate's guards are freaked out and could not move while the angel calmly sits on the stone and tells them Jesus is not here, go tell the disciples. Jesus meets them on the road back to tell the disciples. This is when they first see resurected Jesus according to Matthew.

Marks says: That the two Mary's AND Salome make this trip to the tomb. Now there are three people on this journey. The three of them are wondering how they will remove the stone and find it all ready removed. This time they go inside the tomb unlike the last account about an angel who sent them on there way, there is a man in white sitting where Jesus was laid just to the right INSIDE the tomb. On the way back it's just the two of them. What happened to Salome? Anyway, they see Jesus and are told about getting everyone together at Galilee.

Lukes says: The women got there and the stone was rolled away already and they went inside and there was TWO men dressed in white this time. The two Mary's where there and Joanna and other unnamed women. This time Peter runs down to the tomb to check.

John says: The stone was all ready removed and it is only Mary Magdalene this time and she goes to Peter. Peter comes back with other disciples and sees Jesus gone and knows what is up and they all leave this time. Mary Magdalene stays behind and sees the two angels in white AND Jesus and speaks with him in the tomb. In this story he has not left to see the father yet.

Now, physical Jesus was not in the tomb when the disciples came to see what Mary Magdalene had told them was true. They leave and she looks back inside and now he is in there with two angels.

6. Did she see a physical Jesus or a spiritual one? This physical body was all over the place popping in and out all day long!

7. If you were a jury and heard all this conflicting testimony what would you conclude?

Peter was there that day, but says nothing himself about this event in the bible.

8. What say you?

I took the liberty of bolding and numbering the above for more clarity in my response, but I did not edit your OP in any other way. I will respond by the numbers as best I can.

1. It appears there are conflicting accounts, within the Bible, and within the portions of the Bible that you quoted. This is not unique to this story as the Bible contradicts itself many times, and very often contradicts what we know to have happened through science and history.

2. I can't tell you exactly who was there, in the unlikely event that this ever happened and ANYONE was there, as we have, at best, conflicting accounts from dubious sources.

3. Exact same answer as 2, above.

4. A MAJOR problem here is, that Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John, not only were not at the tomb, but they were not the authors of the Gospels that bear their names. The Gospels were written well after the death of any Historical Jesus or His contemporaries. If memory serves, they were written at least 70+ years after the time of the Historical Jesus. So, no, I don't see how any account, written 3 generations after the fact by a person claiming to be a person we know they are not, giving the version of events from a person not even claimed to have been present for said event, could ever be held to be reliable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_matthew

5. I completely agree with you, tho you don't go nearly far enough, as pointed out in the paragraph responsive to #4 above, in addition to the 3rd hand nature of the information we have the problems pointed out in my paragraph and referenced in the link.

6. While it is most likely this was simply a story told and re-told over the years which may or may not bear any resemblance to historical fact, I think, IF this ever happened, then we would have to suggest a spiritual, rather than physical body.

7. I would not, and am not convinced.

8. I think I have already stated what I think about the situation above.

B.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

6. While it is most likely this was simply a story told and re-told over the years which may or may not bear any resemblance to historical fact, I think, IF this ever happened, then we would have to suggest a spiritual, rather than physical body.

I don't see why we'd have to conclude that if anything happened, it must have been spiritual only. A spiritual resurrection fits the evidence just as much as a bodily one.

 

[kateyes]

I wasn't going to comment here--I am not a Biblical Scholar-but decided to go ahead and share my thoughts.

First I do not believe in the Bible inerrant--too much of the Old Testament came from an oral tradition to be certain events happened EXACTLY as stated in the Bible--that doesn't make them false--it just means take some things with a grain of salt.

Now the New Testament--Rev Rick, takes the viewpoint of the Gospels being written by the Apostle's they are named for--and therefore seems to feel they have validity based on eyewitness or 2nd witness testimony. The latest views I have read by Biblical Scholars--seems to indicate none of the Gospels were actually written by the Apostles--so in fact any of the information given is at the least 2 times removed from the actual events--and much of it in fact could be many more times removed. While it is wonderful to think the words in red are in fact the actual words of Jesus (quotes)-there is in fact no proof one way or the other.

I believe that at some point in our lives--Christians make a conscious decision, to suspend actual knowledge--and CHOOSE to believe. They choose to believe out of faith, and only each individual knows when or why they made that choice. I think it is extremely doubtful we will ever actually find physical evidence of Jesus existance--much less undeniable proof of the Resurrection, or the divinity of Jesus. The fact that we have never found actual remains of Atlantis--does not mean it never existed. Gravity is not something you can actually touch--but it exists. There are colorless, and odorless gases, the fact that we cannot see, touch, smell or taste them does not mean they don't exist. I tend to view the lessons of Jesus the same way--the lessons can affect you and your life if you allow it, you don't necessarily have to take the accounts as Gospel(pun intended) to learn the lessons they offer.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

I don't see why we'd have to conclude that if anything happened, it must have been spiritual only. A spiritual resurrection fits the evidence just as much as a bodily one.

Touche.

However, (and this feels like we are debating how many angels can dance on the head of a pin here) if we ascribe a physical body resurrection idea, then it is more difficult to imagine an ascendency to heaven, etc. . . . but then a spiritual resurection makes Doubting Thomas' feeling of Jesus hands redundant. . . Angellous, you are correct, I was in error to say that a spiritual resurrection makes more sense. Spiritual and physical are on equal footing, and I stand corrected.

B.