Religious Politics - Secularized "Christmas"

[DeepShadow]

yea---i get convicted about being stupid---and being a hypocrite

Stupidity and hypocrisy can be in the eye of the beholder. To me, I find it stupid to say that a Christian who practices common Christmas traditions is corrupted by the pagan roots of those traditions, even without any knowledge of these roots. If I see a Christmas tree as a symbol of Christ's gift of life, it's not a pagan symbol to me.

We all continually assign new meanings to our symbols, by conscious choice. To claim that another person hasn't made the choice they claim to is to claim to know their heart, which you can't. To claim that their chosen meaning is overruled by the meaning someone gave it a thousand years ago is to claim that the dead are more powerful than the living. To claim that the meaning you put on it is the only true one is prideful. To possess any of these traits while accusing others of being unChristian is hypocritical.

LDS get similar accusations all the time from people who claim that our leaders use secret meanings to all the vocabulary we use, to disguise us as true Christians. If Brigham Young wanted us to think "God made flesh" when we said "Adam," well then the joke's on him, because he disguised the term so well that it lost the hidden meaning! The same goes for all the supposedly hidden meanings we have for "saved," "virgin," "Christian," "Christ," and so on. What someone said about it a hundred or a thousand years ago does not change what I think of it.

we serve different Gods perhaps?

My God can redeem a holiday from paganism as easily as He can a person from sinful living.

 

[Pah]

Stupidity and hypocrisy can be in the eye of the beholder. To me, I find it stupid to say that a Christian who practices common Christmas traditions is corrupted by the pagan roots of those traditions, even without any knowledge of these roots. If I see a Christmas tree as a symbol of Christ's gift of life, it's not a pagan symbol to me.

I'd very very interested in what the colors green and red mean to you when white is the color of the Christmas religious season and purple is the color of Advent. What Christian significance is the yule log or sprig of holy? Where was the evergreen in the nativity? In order to have a Christian significance, it must signify something Christian. It really does not matter that those symbols are pagan and were adopted to more readliy convert pagans to Christianity, they remain pagan symbols today and are adapted to a commercial, secular Christmas.

We all continually assign new meanings to our symbols, by conscious choice. To claim that another person hasn't made the choice they claim to is to claim to know their heart, which you can't. To claim that their chosen meaning is overruled by the meaning someone gave it a thousand years ago is to claim that the dead are more powerful than the living. To claim that the meaning you put on it is the only true one is prideful. To possess any of these traits while accusing others of being unChristian is hypocritical.

As was just asked, what is the Christian meaning for the symbols mentioned, how do they relate to Christianity? Which biblical story appropiates the symbol and assigns a Christian meaning?

The fact is the symbols are from a religion that prececeds Christianity by thousands of years and is still a living religion today. If the bible does not have the story, perhaps it is in the later reveation, the Book of Morman.

 

[Katzpur]

I'd very very interested in what the colors green and red mean to you when white is the color of the Christmas religious season and purple is the color of Advent. What Christian significance is the yule log or sprig of holy? Where was the evergreen in the nativity? In order to have a Christian significance, it must signify something Christian. It really does not matter that those symbols are pagan and were adopted to more readliy convert pagans to Christianity, they remain pagan symbols today and are adapted to a commercial, secular Christmas.
As was just asked, what is the Christian meaning for the symbols mentioned, how do they relate to Christianity? Which biblical story appropiates the symbol and assigns a Christian meaning?

The Star, a heavenly sign of prophecy fulfilled long ago, represents our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ – the “Light of the World.”

Red, the first color of Christmas, symbolizes the Savior’s blood, shed for us through his atoning sacrifice.

Green, the second color of Christmas, and the color of the fir tree or evergreen, symbolizes everlasting life. The needles of the evergreen point heavenward as a reminder to us that heaven is our goal.

White, the color of snow, represents purity. When we repent of our sins, though they be as scarlet, His grace will make us clean again.

The Bell, which rings out to guide His lost sheep, signifies that all are precious in His sight.

The Candle is a mirror of starlight, reflecting our thanks for the Star of Bethlehem.

The Gift Bow is tied to remind us that we should all be tied together in bonds of goodwill.

The Candy Cane, representing the shepherd’s staff used to bring lambs back into the fold, is a reminder that each of us is our brother’s keeper.

The Wreath, having no beginning and no end, symbolizes the eternal nature of the Savior’s love for us.

The Holly, with it's thorn-like leaves remind us of Jesus' crown of thorns, and the berries symbolize the drops of blood He shed for us.

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

You hear a lot of complaints about taking the "Christ" out of Christmas. Is that an atheist or otherwise secular plot to degrade the season? Hardly. Much of the blame lies in commerial interests and in the decreased emphasis, almost to the point of extinction, on the liturgical seasons.

How many Christians celebrate or do the following: ...

Eschew Pagan smybols and practise, i.e., Santa Claus, the colors red and green, holly, mistletoe, the yule log, sing carols, and evergreen trees

​

Saints aren't pagan, last I checked;

 

[Pah]

Saints aren't pagan, last I checked;

A pagan "saint"?

Some religious historians and experts in folklore believe that there is no valid evidence to indicate that St. Nicholas ever existed as a human. In fact, there are quite a few indicators that his life story was simply recycled from those of Pagan gods. Many other ancient Pagan gods and goddesses were similarly Christianized in the early centuries of the Church. His legends seems to have been mainly created out of myths attributed to the Greek God Poseidon, the Roman God Neptune, and the Teutonic God Hold Nickar. "In the popular imagination [of many Russians] he became the heir of Mikoula, the god of harvest, 'who will replace God, when God becomes too old.' "

When the church created the persona of St. Nicholas, they adopted Poseidon's title "the Sailor." They seem to have picked up his last name from Nickar. Various temples of Poseidon became shrines of St. Nicholas. 1 "In medieval England... in tiny sea ports we find the typical little chapel built on an eminence and looking out to sea." 8 St. Nicholas also adopted some of the qualities of "The Grandmother" or Befana from Italy. She was said to have filled children's stockings with gifts. Her shrine at Bari was also converted into a shrine to St. Nicholas.

The Christian church created a fictional life history for St. Nicholas. He was given the name Hagios Nikolaos (a.k.a. St. Nicholas of Myra).

"St. Nicholas of Bari (Fourth Century)," Catholic Information Network, at: http://www.cin.org/nichbari.html

 

[Pah]

The Star, a heavenly sign of prophecy fulfilled long ago, represents our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ – the “Light of the World.”

Red, the first color of Christmas, symbolizes the Savior’s blood, shed for us through his atoning sacrifice.

Green, the second color of Christmas, and the color of the fir tree or evergreen, symbolizes everlasting life. The needles of the evergreen point heavenward as a reminder to us that heaven is our goal.

White, the color of snow, represents purity. When we repent of our sins, though they be as scarlet, His grace will make us clean again.

The Bell, which rings out to guide His lost sheep, signifies that all are precious in His sight.

The Candle is a mirror of starlight, reflecting our thanks for the Star of Bethlehem.

The Gift Bow is tied to remind us that we should all be tied together in bonds of goodwill.

The Candy Cane, representing the shepherd’s staff used to bring lambs back into the fold, is a reminder that each of us is our brother’s keeper.

The Wreath, having no beginning and no end, symbolizes the eternal nature of the Savior’s love for us.

The Holly, with it's thorn-like leaves remind us of Jesus' crown of thorns, and the berries symbolize the drops of blood He shed for us.

http://wilstar.com/xmas/xmassymb.htm

Two hundred years before the birth of Christ, the Druids used mistletoe to celebrate the coming of winter. They would gather this evergreen plant that is parasitic upon other trees and used it to decorate their homes. They believed the plant had special healing powers for everything from female infertility to poison ingestion. Scandinavians also thought of mistletoe as a plant of peace and harmony. They associated mistletoe with their goddess of love, Frigga. The custom of kissing under the mistletoe probably derived from this belief. The early church banned the use of mistletoe in Christmas celebrations because of its pagan origins. Instead, church fathers suggested the use of holly as an appropriate substitute for Christmas greenery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra
Mithra (Avestan Miθra, modern Persian مهر Mihr, Mehr, Meher) is an important deity or divine concept (so called Yazata) in Zoroastrianism and later Persian mythology and culture.

Mithra is descended, together with the Vedic deity Mitra, from a common proto-Indo-Iranian entity *mitra(pronounced the same way as Mithra). The Graeco-Roman Mithras may, in turn, have evolved from a Zoroastrian (or later Persian) Mithra, but such a connection has yet to be conclusively established (See: Mithraism).

http://www.locksley.com/6696/xmas.htm
Mithra, by the way, was born on December 25, of a virgin. His birth was witnessed by shepherds and magicians [magi]. Mithra raised the dead and healed the sick and cast out demons. He returned to heaven at the spring equinox and before doing so had a last supper with his 12 disciples (representing the 12 signs of the zodiac), eating mizd, a piece of bread marked with a cross (an almost universal symbol of the sun).

Red and green were symbols of fertility before the nativity. So I can fully understan why a new meaning was assigned. The colors started to be associated with liturgical in the 4th Century and standardized to Violet, White, Black, Red and Green in the 12th Century by Pope Innocent III. The explanation you gave of the colors matches pretty well with

http://www.ucc.org/worship/colors.htm
Violet is the ancient royal color and therefore a symbol of the sovereignty of Christ. Violet is also associated with repentance from sin. White and Gold symbolize the brightness of day. Black is the traditional color of mourning in some cultures. Red evokes the color of blood, and therefore is the color of martyrs and of Christ's death on the Cross. Red also symbolizes fire, and therefore is the color of the Holy Spirit. Green is the color of growth. Blue is the color of the sky and in some rites honors Mary

It would seem to me that anything can be made into a Christian symbol and especially so the pagan symbols. Even I made a rose a symbol of Christianity

 

[RevOxley_501]

Stupidity and hypocrisy can be in the eye of the beholder. To me, I find it stupid to say that a Christian who practices common Christmas traditions is corrupted by the pagan roots of those traditions, even without any knowledge of these roots. If I see a Christmas tree as a symbol of Christ's gift of life, it's not a pagan symbol to me.

We all continually assign new meanings to our symbols, by conscious choice. To claim that another person hasn't made the choice they claim to is to claim to know their heart, which you can't. To claim that their chosen meaning is overruled by the meaning someone gave it a thousand years ago is to claim that the dead are more powerful than the living. To claim that the meaning you put on it is the only true one is prideful. To possess any of these traits while accusing others of being unChristian is hypocritical.

LDS get similar accusations all the time from people who claim that our leaders use secret meanings to all the vocabulary we use, to disguise us as true Christians. If Brigham Young wanted us to think "God made flesh" when we said "Adam," well then the joke's on him, because he disguised the term so well that it lost the hidden meaning! The same goes for all the supposedly hidden meanings we have for "saved," "virgin," "Christian," "Christ," and so on. What someone said about it a hundred or a thousand years ago does not change what I think of it.



My God can redeem a holiday from paganism as easily as He can a person from sinful living.

please understand im not reffereing to ANYBODY but stimpleton


i dont think you guys that celebrate are stupid---i may not understand WHY you do it...but im not about to pass judgement on you

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

A pagan "saint"?

"St. Nicholas of Bari (Fourth Century)," Catholic Information Network, at: http://www.cin.org/nichbari.htmlhttp://www.cin.org/nichbari.html

Did you accidentally put your own editorial of the website you posted in quotes? Because the majority of the text you quote there isn't from the website...In fact, the site makes it quite clear that St. Nicholas was a real person, although much information has been lost on his life...although we do have his grave, which has been revered for centuries since the saint was placed there, apparently...

 

[Pah]

Did you accidentally put your own editorial of the website you posted in quotes? Because the majority of the text you quote there isn't from the website...In fact, the site makes it quite clear that St. Nicholas was a real person, although much information has been lost on his life...although we do have his grave, which has been revered for centuries since the saint was placed there, apparently...

Screwed that up.didn't I.
The quoted text

Some religious historians and experts in folklore believe that there is no valid evidence to indicate that St. Nicholas ever existed as a human. In fact, there are quite a few indicators that his life story was simply recycled from those of Pagan gods. Many other ancient Pagan gods and goddesses were similarly Christianized in the early centuries of the Church. His legends seems to have been mainly created out of myths attributed to the Greek God Poseidon, the Roman God Neptune, and the Teutonic God Hold Nickar. "In the popular imagination [of many Russians] he became the heir of Mikoula, the god of harvest, 'who will replace God, when God becomes too old.' " 8

When the church created the persona of St. Nicholas, they adopted Poseidon's title "the Sailor." They seem to have picked up his last name from Nickar. Various temples of Poseidon became shrines of St. Nicholas. 1 "In medieval England... in tiny sea ports we find the typical little chapel built on an eminence and looking out to sea." 8 St. Nicholas also adopted some of the qualities of "The Grandmother" or Befana from Italy. She was said to have filled children's stockings with gifts. Her shrine at Bari was also converted into a shrine to St. Nicholas.

is from http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm.

I wanted to give further expanation for the "persona the church created" and thus the second (well, it should have been the second) link

 

[FerventGodSeeker]

Screwed that up.didn't I.
The quoted text is from http://www.religioustolerance.org/santa1.htm.

I wanted to give further expanation for the "persona the church created" and thus the second (well, it should have been the second) link

Oh, gotcha, np

 

[SquareC]

Saints aren't pagan, last I checked;

There is some evidence, I'll have to look to find where, that some of the saints are in fact, pagan Gods and Goddesses "adopted" into Christianity to make the transition easier for the pagans forcibly converted in the Middle Ages. St. Brigid comes to mind as an example. I'll do some digging and see if I can find some back up for this, as it's coming out of my memory at the moment.

The pagan (or at least Wiccan and many varieties of paganism) version of the holiday which is now celebrated comes from Yule, which is the Winter Solstice and generally falls on the 21st or 22nd of December. As has been previously stated, many of the traditions of Christmas come from pagan origins, such as the Yule log, mistletoe and holly, to name a few. Traditions of virgin births and miracle working in pagan religions are well-documented.

Personally, I celebrate Christmas in a secular fashion (mostly for my kids' sakes) and Yule in a religious sense. I have often wondered at how many Christians not only do not know of the pagan origin of many of the Christmas traditions, but will argue that they are not from paganism at all, despite all evidence to the contrary. Christmas is not the only Christian holiday to have many pagan origins and traditions.

 

[Pah]

There has been a lot of talk about pagan symbols incorporated in Christmas but that is a very small part of the argument

Attend mass, or the equivalent, on Christmas day
Michaelmas
Candlemas
Childermas
The Feast of the Epiphany
The Advent season
Gift-giving in the real Christmas season, which occurs Christmas day and lasts 12 days
Put up a Christmas tree in Advent
Use Christmas as a day of contemplating Christ, and not for engaging in commerce​

Is that an atheist or otherwise secular plot to degrade the season? Hardly. Much of the blame lies in commerial interests and in the decreased emphasis, almost to the point of extinction, on the liturgical seasons.

The OP "observation" rests on the other points as well. Any further comment?

Could it not be said that much of the "loss" in Christmas is because of changing Christian attitudes.

 

[Pah]

P.S. The feast day for Saint Nicholas is December 6th. Anyone give presents on that day?

 

[SquareC]

There has been a lot of talk about pagan symbols incorporated in Christmas but that is a very small part of the argument

Attend mass, or the equivalent, on Christmas day
Michaelmas
Candlemas
Childermas
The Feast of the Epiphany
The Advent season
Gift-giving in the real Christmas season, which occurs Christmas day and lasts 12 days
Put up a Christmas tree in Advent
Use Christmas as a day of contemplating Christ, and not for engaging in commerce
​

The OP "observation" rests on the other points as well. Any further comment?

Could it not be said that much of the "loss" in Christmas is because of changing Christian attitudes.

I think it well could be said. Many more Christians are actually Christian for convenience or because it's what's "supposed to be done" in their family, work, whatever. They don't have true faith, they pay lip-service only to the religion. And feel no shame in turning what many other Christians hold as a truly sacred holiday, into a commercialized, competitive mockery. Never mind when Christ was actually born, it's the celebration of his birth that matters to those who hold the holiday so highly. So what if many of the associated traditions can from Pagan origins. That's not the point of the day. You make an excellent point.

 

[Pah]

From my inbox

Christians See 'War on Christmas' Momentum Shift

Nathan Burchfiel, CNSNews.com

While the city of Chicago is distancing itself from a movie on the nativity for fear of offending non-Christians, stores across the country are embracing the "Merry Christmas" greeting and Christian groups are claiming minor victories in what some have called the "war on Christmas." Chicago officials this week acknowledged they had asked the organizers of an annual Christmas festival - the German Christkindlmarket - to reject sponsorship money from New Line Cinema, which was using the festival to promote its upcoming release, "The Nativity Story." The film depicts the biblical account of the birth of Jesus Christ. But while Christian groups continue to argue with Chicago over the film, they are seeing some victories in the "war on Christmas" as some companies that had once rejected Christmas terminology are beginning to embrace the holiday. Among the most prominent stores now wishing shoppers a "Merry Christmas" rather than the generic "Happy Holidays" are Wal-Mart and Macy's. Others like Target, Dillard's and J.C. Penny also make Christian advocacy groups' "nice list" as they are this year allowing employees to say "Merry Christmas" and are advertising Christmas sales and selling Christmas products.

Say "Merry Christmas" in Advent? These military Christians, fighting an imaginary war. lose the battle.