Religious accountability

[Desert Snake]

And that creates this problem.

There are a thousand different ways the bible can ok what you do. But there is only one thing you have to judge people by.

So in short, there is no wrong a Christian can do. Because there is a verse somewhere that covers this sin of or that sin. But I am going to hell.

So why even be a Christian? A title where you get to do anything you want and run in gangs and run peoples lives and cast judgement every which way.

Where is the
'accountability' part here, you seem to admit that Xians are saved, while others may not be, backed by Scripture.

 

[sojourner]

And that creates this problem.

There are a thousand different ways the bible can ok what you do. But there is only one thing you have to judge people by.

So in short, there is no wrong a Christian can do. Because there is a verse somewhere that covers this sin of or that sin. But I am going to hell.

So why even be a Christian? A title where you get to do anything you want and run in gangs and run peoples lives and cast judgement every which way.

You put your finger on a huge problem. Christianity has been the majority religion in this country for a very long time. To be a Christian is to join a very large club with a lot of social benefits, a lot of power, and a wealthy lobby. How does one be a Christian and not abuse the power that comes with it? It's a huge problem, because Christians are largely the bloc of lobbyists in favor of discriminating against a minority: homosexuals. It's easy to become righteously indignant and to trample on others when you've got the majority church behind you. Too easy. Entitlement's a bee-atch.

 

[nightwolf]

You put your finger on a huge problem. Christianity has been the majority religion in this country for a very long time. To be a Christian is to join a very large club with a lot of social benefits, a lot of power, and a wealthy lobby. How does one be a Christian and not abuse the power that comes with it? It's a huge problem, because Christians are largely the bloc of lobbyists in favor of discriminating against a minority: homosexuals. It's easy to become righteously indignant and to trample on others when you've got the majority church behind you. Too easy. Entitlement's a bee-atch.

Yep. Now we are on page 100 of the same book .

That is a big problem. They have a say in way to much (at least in my area). They get to dictate the lives of other people as well as dictate the happiness of other people (homosexuals).

I wish separation of church and state was for real. That would be a nice change. As a matter fact, I wish all religions would stop running in groups and stop the hate and stop the wars. But our Christians do way to much and provokes people into hating us and pushes other people into killing.

 

[nightwolf]

Where is the
'accountability' part here, you seem to admit that Xians are saved, while others may not be, backed by Scripture.

If I go to hell that is a choice I alone will make. I am accountable for my actions, if I end up there I made a choice. I can live with that.

 

[Desert Snake]

If I go to hell that is a choice I alone will make. I am accountable for my actions, if I end up there I made a choice. I can live with that.

Yep except we are flawed as humans. If you are a saint, I guess you're on easy street.

 

[thau]

And that creates this problem.

There are a thousand different ways the bible can ok what you do. But there is only one thing you have to judge people by.

So in short, there is no wrong a Christian can do. Because there is a verse somewhere that covers this sin of or that sin. But I am going to hell.

So why even be a Christian? A title where you get to do anything you want and run in gangs and run peoples lives and cast judgement every which way.

Look. If you are trying to suggest to me that Christians and Christian denominations differ on a number of critical doctrines of the faith you would be correct. And it surely is a serious setback to the truth and to witnessing to the world.

If you are also implying some Christians or Christian denominations can boldly proclaim who is "saved" and who may not be "saved," again, you are correct. But that group is in great error in my opinion, and pretty much in the Catholic Church's position as well. The only ruling or even teaching about who is in heaven I know of from the Catholic Church is that they have deemed canonized saints (and canonized martyred saints) as in heaven. They have never judged any other soul up or down.

Finally, it is back to purgatory. That is where God's justice and mercy come together in perfection. All us Christians who sin and are from holiness will suffer a long time in purgatory where we are purified as going through fire. So are multitudes on non-Christians and unbelievers going to find themselves in purgatory where it will all be made crystal clear to them what they missed on earth. All souls in purgatory are eventually allowed into heaven.

Perhaps the most diabolical folks, Christians and non-Christians alike, who either lived the live of a self indulgent, unforgiving scoundrel may end up in hell. Yes, it is real and I shudder to think of it.

 

[Sabour]

The other day I was having a discussion. It was made clear the person I was talking to was a Christian. In the conversation we talked about war and the death war causes.

I was in the position of hating war and thinking it is pointless while the Christian was telling me he was for it. I pointed out that his religion says he shouldn't kill. Then all the sudden I was judging him and that was a no no.

I am under the impression that if you claim to follow a religion you are a representative of that religion. You are indeed accountable for what you might say that might contradict what your religion teaches.

I took my problem to a forum and the forum told me I was holding him to a higher standard then I hold myself, this made sense. This got me exploring the Christian faith. People kept responding to my post and finally got me to the point where I realized it was something I could never be.

The mantra was "we all sin". So basically, we can say and do what we want because we all sin anyways and it really doesn't matter. I can't be any part of that and I walked away.

What is the problem with living by what your religion teaches and being accountable when you don't? I heard a lot of "you should not judge" and "how dare you" but really, why is holding you to a standard a wrong thing when you claim to follow a religion and don't even hold yourself to the same standard?

Just curious.

Well honestly I think this is a "Christian" thing because most of them believe that "faith" is enough to get them to heaven. So although through out the bible you will see beautiful commandments, most people don't worry about finding out what are these commandments to follow them because the belief would save them. And as you said they believe that a person sins in his nature. That I think is why you see big difference between what is being said and what is practiced.

Am I judging? Sorry if I hurt anyone but that his what I see

 

[nightwolf]

Look. If you are trying to suggest to me that Christians and Christian denominations differ on a number of critical doctrines of the faith you would be correct. And it surely is a serious setback to the truth and to witnessing to the world.

If you are also implying some Christians or Christian denominations can boldly proclaim who is "saved" and who may not be "saved," again, you are correct. But that group is in great error in my opinion, and pretty much in the Catholic Church's position as well. The only ruling or even teaching about who is in heaven I know of from the Catholic Church is that they have deemed canonized saints (and canonized martyred saints) as in heaven. They have never judged any other soul up or down.

Finally, it is back to purgatory. That is where God's justice and mercy come together in perfection. All us Christians who sin and are from holiness will suffer a long time in purgatory where we are purified as going through fire. So are multitudes on non-Christians and unbelievers going to find themselves in purgatory where it will all be made crystal clear to them what they missed on earth. All souls in purgatory are eventually allowed into heaven.

Perhaps the most diabolical folks, Christians and non-Christians alike, who either lived the live of a self indulgent, unforgiving scoundrel may end up in hell. Yes, it is real and I shudder to think of it.

I would like to thank you for being very reasonable.

And you would probably be one of them people I would see and know you walk with God.

I agree with what you say. Although I don't know a thing about purgatory.

 

[thau]

I would like to thank you for being very reasonable.

And you would probably be one of them people I would see and know you walk with God.

I agree with what you say. Although I don't know a thing about purgatory.

Purgatory is very real, and the greatest of God's acts of mercy. It is for so many of us who cannot enter heaven in our filthy rags, but God's mercy cannot send us to hell either.

I could supply you with countless passages of Scripture that speak of it, and countless saints or prophets who witness to it. And a number of souls that God allowed back to earth to witness about its reality. It is not pleasant to be sure, but they are the happiest souls anywhere this side of heaven, and far happier than anyone on earth. They suffer gladly because they have seen the Lord and have seen heaven and they know God is only making them pure and holy so they can be allowed into the kingdom.

Read Matthew 25:31-46, it is the Lord speaking during the Last Judgment. Notice he speaks of how we treated others as THEE most important measure of a man. It does not even speak of faith in that critical passage. Surely he is judging others who never knew Jesus on those terms. We almost all have well formed consciences. We know when we are doing right or wrong, when we are being unkind or unfair to our neighbor, and when we are being too greedy, selfish, cruel or lustful or unforgiving. To many, their conscience will judge themselves. God is fair and just and very merciful..

 

[icehorse]

As a non-believer, I've got a related gripe...

If a person declares themselves to be "of religion X", it puts a lot of mental burden on me, or any listener. What does that mean? Are you one of the religion Xers who takes their scripture literally? Are you a "moderate", an "extremist" or a "drug store religion Xer"? Do you want to undo the separation of church and state? Do you want to restrict my speech? Are you the sort who likes to block scientific research that might help my sick cousin? Do you beat your kids? Do you want my kids to think intelligent design is science? Do you support sanctioned pedophilia? Are you someone who prefers AIDS to the use of condoms? Can I invite you to a picnic, or will you hate my Jewish friend Mike and/or my gay friend Tony?

Now you might say that I'm not being fair. That I'm only referring to extremists. Not true, these are all popular positions that religious folks take. So when I meet you, I'll assume that you're a reasonable person, until you tell me you're religious...

 

[nightwolf]

Well honestly I think this is a "Christian" thing because most of them believe that "faith" is enough to get them to heaven. So although through out the bible you will see beautiful commandments, most people don't worry about finding out what are these commandments to follow them because the belief would save them. And as you said they believe that a person sins in his nature. That I think is why you see big difference between what is being said and what is practiced.

Am I judging? Sorry if I hurt anyone but that his what I see

That's a very good point.

I am trying to figure out what it exactly is.

They can sin, dictate,judge,murder,beat their wife,drink and the list goes on. Meanwhile no one is allowed to say that is wrong. It is some sort of bad omen or something.

But I am under the feeling it is a group mentality. When you belong to a big group (and Christianity as a whole is a big group) you gain the power of said group.

So I wonder if it simply about the membership? Because from where I sit it seems like that may be.

And again, this is not a broad spectrum feeling. There are good people in every group.

 

[nightwolf]

As a non-believer, I've got a related gripe...

If a person declares themselves to be "of religion X", it puts a lot of mental burden on me, or any listener. What does that mean? Are you one of the religion Xers who takes their scripture literally? Are you a "moderate", an "extremist" or a "drug store religion Xer"? Do you want to undo the separation of church and state? Do you want to restrict my speech? Are you the sort who likes to block scientific research that might help my sick cousin? Do you beat your kids? Do you want my kids to think intelligent design is science? Do you support sanctioned pedophilia? Are you someone who prefers AIDS to the use of condoms? Can I invite you to a picnic, or will you hate my Jewish friend Mike and/or my gay friend Tony?

Now you might say that I'm not being fair. That I'm only referring to extremists. Not true, these are all popular positions that religious folks take. So when I meet you, I'll assume that you're a reasonable person, until you tell me you're religious...

That is about how I feel. I have come to see religion as one of those things that will give me more grief then it is worth. I don't really want religious friends and I don't really like being a part of the place I live, but I love the country here.

Can't win them all I guess...

 

[Sabour]

That's a very good point.

I am trying to figure out what it exactly is.

They can sin, dictate,judge,murder,beat their wife,drink and the list goes on. Meanwhile no one is allowed to say that is wrong. It is some sort of bad omen or something.

But I am under the feeling it is a group mentality. When you belong to a big group (and Christianity as a whole is a big group) you gain the power of said group.

So I wonder if it simply about the membership? Because from where I sit it seems like that may be.

And again, this is not a broad spectrum feeling. There are good people in every group.

I can't answer that because am not a Christian myself, except if Christianity means someone who follows the teaching of Jesus peace be upon him. than in that sense every Muslim is a Christian too.

I agree on there are good people in every group big time.

Anyways if you don't mind, I would like to know what do you think about Islam ?

 

[Quintessence]

I have studied the bible in depth. The real problem is the area I live in. We live in a church dictatorship in this area. The churches make all the rules and impose on the freedoms of others.

For instance, drinking just got passed by vote in this area. Bar owners and liquor store owners are mysteriously being thrown in jail and no one knows why. The people suspect the church.

An adult store was put in the area and the churches came together to fight it, it went up anyhow. The owner was later arrested and no one knows why. The people suspect the church.

Many things go that way here. I believe in freedom and I believe in the right to choose. I don't drink anymore, however, if you want to get plastered on a Friday night, go right ahead, I support your right to do so.

We as a town are judged and fed what is right and wrong by the churches in this town. Can you understand a bit of my hostility? Don't tell me how to live and then go against what you preach, I have to live by your standards.

Dear. Gods. Your town sounds like a massive lawsuit waiting to happen. A massive lawsuit that should happen.

Honestly, with people like this, it isn't even about religion. It's about power and controlling others. Whether or not they do what they preach is irrelevant; it's all about making you bow to their whims. This corruption happens well beyond religious organizations, and should be checked - as it typically is - with constitutional law.

 

[sojourner]

In my town, there was some legislation on the table to expand the municipal anti-discrimination law to include LGBT people. It was WIDELY supported. The pastor of a mega-church in town made two phone calls ... and killed the bill.

Waaaaaay too much power in foisting one's "morality" upon everyone.

 

[thau]

As a non-believer, I've got a related gripe...

If a person declares themselves to be "of religion X", it puts a lot of mental burden on me, or any listener. What does that mean? Are you one of the religion Xers who takes their scripture literally? Are you a "moderate", an "extremist" or a "drug store religion Xer"? Do you want to undo the separation of church and state? Do you want to restrict my speech? Are you the sort who likes to block scientific research that might help my sick cousin? Do you beat your kids? Do you want my kids to think intelligent design is science? Do you support sanctioned pedophilia? Are you someone who prefers AIDS to the use of condoms? Can I invite you to a picnic, or will you hate my Jewish friend Mike and/or my gay friend Tony?

Now you might say that I'm not being fair. That I'm only referring to extremists. Not true, these are all popular positions that religious folks take. So when I meet you, I'll assume that you're a reasonable person, until you tell me you're religious...

If a person declares themselves to be "of religion X", it puts a lot of mental burden on me, or any listener. What does that mean? Are you one of the religion Xers who takes their scripture literally? Are you a "moderate", an "extremist" or a"drug store religion Xer"?

Let’s just say we are all flawed mortals to various degrees, some severe, still attempting to do our duty for what we thinkis right --- even if it’s not. Not unlike the rest of the world on their own ideological pursuits trying to convince the rest of us. Of course a habitual hypocrite will implicate himself and the message will be lost, or mocked.


Do you want to undo the separation of church and state?

I would not worry about that one, I think the war is going well for your side.


Do you want to restrict my speech?

How so? An occasional protest? We all have it pretty great to exercise free speech in this nation and press, so that would be of little relevance to the scope of this ideological clash.


Are you the sort who likes to block scientific research that might help my sick cousin?

Again, is this some major altercation? Yes we disapprove of destroying human embryos but in almost other matters of medical research and practice we celebrate it and contribute to further discoveries. The Catholic Church does not have to apologize for not lending a gigantic hand to the care of the sick. Not to mention how many clergy were scientists, how many universities established, hospitals, et al.


Do you beat your kids?

Do you mind not calling all discipline“beating?” One’s refusal to distinguish between the two is the crux of the problem I would say.


Do you want my kids to think intelligent design is science?

Here again, the most vocal amongst the unbelievers use this issue to try to discredit everything Christian. I.E., “these nuts don’t believe in evolution,that proves they know nothing about anything.” But what really causes me to stare in disbelief is how many think there is no evidence for intelligent design in the evolution processes. It speaks more of agenda than it does of an honest opinion, imo. ("Who you jiving with your cosmic debris?")


Do you support sanctioned pedophilia?

No, of course not. Do you think the 95% - 98% of priests who do not commit such grave sin should be reviled for being a priest? For the record, the sin of many bishops being sinful or cowardly in covering up these horrible crimes is the greatest sin on the Catholic Church, maybe ever. And we are rightfully paying a terrible price for it. Now we are mocked any time someone feels like it and consequently (and sadly) walks away from so many other truths.


Are you someone who prefers AIDS to the use of condoms?

It is never easy for the Catholic Church to relent on certain principles and always take long in their decisions. There are a few examples of this in history. The Church did consent in Aids ridden Africa that condoms is a humane act. I imagine if you pressed them on the gays and codoms, they might relent on that, too. But the Church is reluctant to dogmatically advise on the “most moral” way to sin, that makes these issues more difficult. But they even have backed off on contraception within marriages, at least in one perspective. Maybe 15 years ago Pope John Paul II issued a letter to all the clergy telling them to be gentle and pastoral towards those who confess artificial contraception in the confessional. It may be a sin but itis not right to drive a soul away from the Church and its sacraments over this one matter. It was mitigated by the pope referring to it as “invincible ignorance.”

But overall, the Catholic Church and itsteachings looks upon sexuality and human life in far more moral and humane ways than a secular world focused on pleasure.


Can I invite you to a picnic, or will you hate my Jewish friend Mike and/or my gay friend Tony?

You are being too selective here. Good on you, you have found a goodly number of Christians and some denominations who condemn certain sects for their "sins." That is condemnation improperly applied, imo. But most Christians, denominational teachings, and certainly the Catholic Church are far more charitable to their brothers of other stripes than you are willing to acknowledge.


Now you might say that I'm not being fair. That I'm only referring to extremists. Not true, these are all popular positions that religious folks take.

Most devout believers are far more forgiving than you have recognized. As are their teachings. But if you are going to wait for a Church and its followers to all be holy and without temptation and sin, well we cannot help that. We all need forgiveness.

 

[Shuttlecraft]

...I was having a discussion...
I was in the position of hating war and thinking it is pointless while the Christian was telling me he was for it...

Good for him, it shows how true Christians don't blindly follow everything in the Bible literally, but use their commonsense to interpret it..
For example Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers".
But the Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini, Japanese Empire, Saddam, Al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS etc were disrupting the peace so had to be tackled to restore it.

As for weapons, there's nothing 'evil' about them, for example Peter whipped out his sword and whacked the high priest's lackey with it when they came to arrest Jesus.
Peter in action-

 

[nightwolf]

Good for him, it shows how true Christians don't blindly follow everything in the Bible literally, but use their commonsense to interpret it..
For example Jesus said "Blessed are the peacemakers".
But the Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini, Japanese Empire, Saddam, Al Qaeda, Taliban, ISIS etc were disrupting the peace so had to be tackled to restore it.

As for weapons, there's nothing 'evil' about them, for example Peter whipped out his sword and whacked the high priest's lackey with it when they came to arrest Jesus.
Peter in action-

And Jesus healed his ear.

Why is this right to decide (not based on biblical fact) given to Christians but my right to choose not given to me? That is a huge problem.

His bible teaches peace. Yes, the old testament was full of war. But in those days there was no way to wash away sin, that came with Jesus.

Now the Christians walk around and dictate to me, we go to war using Christianity (Biden- "We will chase you to the gates of hell"). I am sorry, I don't believe in this whole "rally the world to create hate and deal with this hate we already created".

This means that Christians will go to the end of the earth to create hate and fight this perpetual war on terror that can never be won.

Use logic and anyone would realize that. ISIS is there because we created them! We created them by killing innocent people and people becoming angry, not to mention over throwing governments to do our bidding.

We can't win, we are broke, it will cost lives, it makes no sense, it creates new hate. And this is good because a Christian wants to run us broke for no reason? Broker might be a better example.

It is sad that we have thrown all logic out the window. We were a country that led with leadership, we are now a country that leads by force.

In the tracks of the Roman Empire we follow...

 

[nightwolf]

I can't answer that because am not a Christian myself, except if Christianity means someone who follows the teaching of Jesus peace be upon him. than in that sense every Muslim is a Christian too.

I agree on there are good people in every group big time.

Anyways if you don't mind, I would like to know what do you think about Islam ?

I think every religion that plays on the world stage is bad in general.

We don't need to fight wars based on religion. We need to fight wars based on logic and when you use religion as a basis for logic, nothing good can come from it.

 

[Sabour]

I think every religion that plays on the world stage is bad in general.

We don't need to fight wars based on religion. We need to fight wars based on logic and when you use religion as a basis for logic, nothing good can come from it.

What do you mean by plays on the world stage ?

I think wars should be tried best to be avoided and I am sure we agree on that.