Religion - Some Questions

[URAVIP2ME]

This is what is reflected in the verses in Phil 2:

• “In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:” (Phil 2:5)

Thank you Soapy for your ^ above ^ reply.
I find as far as Jesus' 'mindset' that his 'mindset' is that he is mild tempered, lowly in heart as per Matthew 11:29-30
Jesus displayed being humble - Zechariah 9:9

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Maybe he wouldn't encourage socialism but he would not look to fondly at the capitalist world western Christianity beholds.
I appreciate people who say they have found the light but how often does their behaviour really change. After you are transformed doesn't that mean you share your wealth with the needy? And love ALL your neighbours?

Please notice that ALL of earth's merchants will mourn the loss of religion - Revelation 18:11-19
Jesus taught to love your enemies, and in Jesus' story about a 'neighborly good Samaritan man' Jesus was teaching us to widen out or broaden out in showing practical love for others/strangers in distress.
There are shades of love, so to speak, we can have brotherly love, aka love with affection, and we can have love based on principle ( agape' love ) which means we don't have to have the same affection as we do for a cherished one.

 

[Kfox]

Hi, I don't hang around many religious people and it's hard to talk to them about the following so that's why I'm here, maybe to get some understanding.

Firstly, if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists? Wasn't Jesus about sharing and caring?

Socialism isn't about sharing and caring, it's about the Government owning the means of production rather than the free enterprise system. When did Jesus ever discuss such economic systems?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

There is actually precious little evidence that religion was ever used in the past to explain natural phenomena.................

I would Not venture to say 'explain in the past' but that Satan is the god of this world of badness as per 2nd Corinthians 4:4
As far as 'natural phenomena' we find the account of Jesus regulating 'weather phenomena' at Mark 4:39. - Psalm 89:9
Jesus was demonstrating a sample, a preview, a coming attraction of what Jesus will be doing during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

 

[muhammad_isa]

Socialism isn't about sharing and caring, it's about the Government owning the means of production rather than the free enterprise system. When did Jesus ever discuss such economic systems?

I don't agree with that.
That is an extreme viewpoint .. all extremisms are doomed to failure,
whether left or right.

There must be a balance .. and that is something the world has lost.
Usury carries the greatest blame for mankind's demise.

 

[Ebionite]

Usury carries the greatest blame for mankind's demise.

I'd argue that the demise is mostly due to idolatry. Usury isn't associated with blindness.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

....Firstly, if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists? Wasn't Jesus about sharing and caring? Christians may share a little but nowhere near enough, not to the levels that Jesus would expect. And I know we all can't be perfect and Jesus will forgive us.......but if you really did want forgiveness, shouldn't you sacrifice so much more? I think your maker will not be happy with you at all ........

First, Jesus was a Theocrat and believed in biblical theocracy ( God Rule )
Not the modern-day definition of theocracy with is defined as clergy rule.
Remember: while on Earth Jesus did Not cure everyone, Not resurrect everyone, Not feed everyone.
Jesus main purpose was the preaching and teaching theme about God's Kingdom ( thy kingdom come..... ) - Luke 4:43
Jesus sacrificed much time instructing others to do the same - Matthew 24:14; Acts 1:8
As far s sacrifice we are to have the 'same self-sacrificing love' for others as Jesus has - John 13:34-35; 15:12
Show practical love on a one-on-one basis besides telling others about the good news of God's Kingdom - Daniel 2:44

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'd argue that the demise is mostly due to idolatry. Usury isn't associated with blindness.

I was referring to the context of the post I was replying to.
i.e. the free enterprise system

 

[URAVIP2ME]

That's the point and you agree 'I find even as atheist can be a neighborly good-person Samaritan in showing practical love for others.'
If this is so, knowing about Gods Kingdom etc is not necessary.
We don't need Jesus to tell us how to be good, could it be anyone with as much love in his heart?

Even before Jesus, the Constitution of the Mosaic Law for ancient Israel taught God-like love for neighbor.
Love can't do away with sickness and enemy death - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26; Isaiah 25:8
Jesus demonstrated on a small scale what he will be doing on a grand-global international scale - Rev. 22:2
Jesus as King (President) of God's Kingdom government will end death on Earth - Rev. 1:18
So, 'yes' God's KIngdom (Daniel 2:44; 7:13-14) is necessary to bring about the beautiful paradisical conditions on Earth as described in the 35th chapter of Isaiah.

 

[Kfox]

I don't agree with that.
That is an extreme viewpoint .. all extremisms are doomed to failure,
whether left or right.

There must be a balance .. and that is something the world has lost.
Usury carries the greatest blame for mankind's demise.

So when did Jesus ever preach socialism?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

........................ .. all extremisms are doomed to failure,
whether left or right.
There must be a balance .. and that is something the world has lost....................

To me the world lost balance in the Garden of Eden.
Adam's sin un-balanced the Scale of Justice and we being imperfect can't balance it.
However, a sinless Jesus could and did re-balance the Scale of Justice for us.
What the world lost, Jesus is regaining for us now and into his coming 1,000 year reign over Earth - 1st. Cor. 15:24-26
Regaining now in a spiritual way, and in the coming future also in a physical way - 'Healing' for earth's nations - Rev. 22:2

 

[Ebionite]

I was referring to the context of the post I was replying to.
i.e. the free enterprise system

OK, but free enterprise could relate to an ideology?

 

[muhammad_isa]

OK, but free enterprise could relate to an ideology?

I've already commented on extreme views.

"Free enterprise" should not include unlawful things .. immoral things.

 

[Ebionite]

I've already commented on extreme views.

"Free enterprise" should not include unlawful things .. immoral things.

Who gets to decide what is lawful and/or moral?

 

[Madsaac]

That's quite the claim. It doesn't hold more than a few ounces of water, but prejudice against and scapegoating of "religion" (as if that's a singular thing that can be meaningfully spoken about - HAH!) is, unfortunately all the rage these days. When you can name names and get specific your claim might hold more than a few ounces of water. That includes being specific about these "problems" as something is a "problem" because some human says it is - it's a value judgement and a subjective assessment. You need to present a "for the sake of discussion, we are going to consider X a problem even though different cultures do not agree and hold to different values." Next, connect the problem you have identified to a specific religious traditions and identify the specific teachings within that religion that would meaningfully contribute to said problem. Most importantly, name specific individual humans taking real-world actions that directly cause the problem you have identified.

Be specific.

Name names.


Nonsense.

How much have you studied the history of philosophy, or the history of the intellectual traditions of the West just in general? Just start with this, for one example, and then add to that all the other tens and thousands of religions in the world:

Role of Christianity in civilization - Wikipedia

I'm not even Christian, and I cannot just ignore the massive contributions Christianity made in promoting literacy, developing the Western intellectual tradition, fostering the sciences, and inspiring the arts. Sorry, but this is just nonsense.

I'm no academic and not that way inclined to form 'in depth' arguments but.....

It's contradictory for you say 'my claim may hold a ounces of water if I be specific about these "problems" as something is a "problem" because some human says it is - it's a value judgement and a subjective assessments'. Every religion make their rules and beliefs through ancient texts written by humans in an ancient time without a shred of any evidence.

And if religions can make bold claims without any evidence, then its not unreasonable to make generalisations about the many problems associated with religion such as the conflict with science, curtailing freedoms, claims of having the exclusive truth, fear of punishment, feeling guilt, justification of violence, limitation on the rights of women, outdatedness, persecution and of course prejudice.

I agree Christianity did make massive contributions in the 'ancient world' because back then people didn't know any better but now of course we do, so in turn the 'developing/developed' world use scientific research to help live a better life, not ancient beliefs.

 

[InChrist]

Maybe he wouldn't encourage socialism but he would not look to fondly at the capitalist world western Christianity beholds.

I appreciate people who say they have found the light but how often does their behaviour really change. After you are transformed doesn't that mean you share your wealth with the needy? And love ALL your neighbours?

Well, I agree, I don’t think Jesus would look kindly on selfish capitalism. But socialism can be just as selfish as any political construct, maybe more so. In socialism those on top live in luxury, while controlling the masses who live in bare minimum.
I can certainly also agree that lots of American or western Christians live selfishly, pursuing wealth… but many don’t. Many, many Christians and churches are consistently involved with helping financially and in person at food banks, homeless shelters, domestic abuse shelters, etc. in their local areas, as well as supporting relief efforts for the poor around the world.

 

[Soapy]

Thank you Soapy for your ^ above ^ reply.
I find as far as Jesus' 'mindset' that his 'mindset' is that he is mild tempered, lowly in heart as per Matthew 11:29-30
Jesus displayed being humble - Zechariah 9:9

Trinitarians do not dare quote this verse and yet it is the pinnacle point of Phil 2, that though Jesus Christ was EMPOWERED with the Spirit of God and could have made himself earthly rich, an earthly king, been a world military leader, made himself ‘A God to humanity’ - Almighty God, the Father, is STILL IN CHARGE: Pharoah was still in charge over Joseph even as Joseph’s was ‘made to rule for a period of time…! Joseph could not have usurped Pharoah’ THRONE!!.

So, this is why the verse reads… INSTEAD, he made himself as nothing… setting himself LAST as though a Servant to mankind and giving himself over the law, even to insults, beatings, flogging, being spat on, being unbelieved (imagine telling 100% truth and no one believes you!!!) and DYING A GRUESOME DEATH the likes of which was reserved for those committing sedition against Rome.

 

[Altfish]

Firstly, if you are a Christian and you follow Jesus - Why aren't you all socialists?

Yes, this is spot on. Why are they supporting Trump and the GOP who cut funding for social programs and hate anyone 'different'. JC will detest people like that if the Bible is to be believed.

 

[Soapy]

I would Not venture to say 'explain in the past' but that Satan is the god of this world of badness as per 2nd Corinthians 4:4
As far as 'natural phenomena' we find the account of Jesus regulating 'weather phenomena' at Mark 4:39. - Psalm 89:9
Jesus was demonstrating a sample, a preview, a coming attraction of what Jesus will be doing during his coming 1,000-year governmental rule over Earth. - 1st Corinthians 15:24-26

‘Controlling’ nature is fraught with problems. This has been written about in fiction and is not to far from the truth.

Notice that Jesus only CALMED the storm because the disciples were SO AFRAID…

Jesus, himself, was just sleeping through it.

Man, given such powers, would exploit if politically and to the detriment of all on the globe… remember that ‘a leaf falling in the forest on the other side of the world has an eventual effect on us on the other side, too / whether (???) for bad of fog good - who is to say!!

 

[muhammad_isa]

Who gets to decide what is lawful and/or moral?

Almighty God..
..and of course, our own conscience.