Religion & Logic

[Kuzcotopia]

Please note my deliberate and sincere use of the word "some".



Except that I never made any such assumption or declaration, and thus you are arguing against assertions of your own invention.

Fair enough. Apologies.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

You should read some ancient Greek philosophy and compare how much of that is like modern western culture as compared to non-western ones. Greeks, Romans, Jews, Persians, the Germanic tribes all had plenty to do with "western culture" being the way it is.

Prometheus Bound, a Greek Tragedy, parallels the Jesus mythology, written in 500+ BC. Except for the happy ending.

 

[`mud]

hey Jumi,
great link....I'm going to enjoy it all day.
One of my favorites so far:
Love is the attempt to form a friendship inspired by beauty.
Marcus Tullius Cicero
~
'mud

 

[Typist]

You should read some ancient Greek philosophy and compare how much of that is like modern western culture as compared to non-western ones. Greeks, Romans, Jews, Persians, the Germanic tribes all had plenty to do with "western culture" being the way it is.

Agreed and point taken. I tend to focus on Catholics only because nobody else dominated western culture so thoroughly for such a long period of time. Hopefully it's clear I'm not selling Catholicism, only pointing to it's huge influence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree. Religion is too big to be either good or bad, a this or a that. I admit to some rhetorical excess in overselling the case for religion. It seems a more reasoned analysis would attempt to carefully identify the positive aspects of religion and keep those, while discarding the less constructive elements, which do indeed exist.

Of course... but here's the thing: a person doesn't need to be religious himself or herself to adopt good ideas from religion.

As an atheist, I can already steal virtually anything from, say, Catholicism that I consider demonstrably positive, but it wouldn't make me a Catholic. This means that accepting Catholicism as a belief system would only mean accepting:

- the stuff that's questionable
- the stuff I consider outright negative
- any positive stuff that can't be obtained without actually being Catholic (though I haven't found anything that fits this bill for Catholicism or any other religion)

So... even for a religion that's mostly good, to a person who isn't already a member, the prospect of adopting the religion is questionable at best and negative at worst.

 

[Typist]

Of course... but here's the thing: a person doesn't need to be religious himself or herself to adopt good ideas from religion.

Agreed completely.

As an atheist, I can already steal virtually anything from, say, Catholicism that I consider demonstrably positive, but it wouldn't make me a Catholic.

It would make you a partial Catholic, but then as a member of western culture, you already are that, as are we all.

So... even for a religion that's mostly good, to a person who isn't already a member, the prospect of adopting the religion is questionable at best and negative at worst.

To continue with the Catholic example, it should be said that Catholics rarely agree with church doctrine in every detail. By becoming Catholic one would be joining a community of people with the same interests and some measure of agreement on fundamental principles.

Further, a common misunderstanding (imho) is that Catholicism is whatever somebody in the Vatican says it is. Catholic clergy are a tiny fraction of the Catholic community who have appointed themselves as leaders. They are influential beyond their small numbers for sure, but don't have the ability, or usually even the desire, to enforce a single form of belief on all members.

Catholicism is the sum total of what all Catholics believe, and more importantly, do.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It would make you a partial Catholic, but then a member of western culture, you already are that, as are we all. [/
QUOTE]
Heh... if I'm a "partial Catholic", then the Catholic Church is mostly Pagan and a bit Muslim. I don't think that's a useful or accurate way to label things.

To continue with the Catholic example, it should be said that Catholics rarely agree with church doctrine in every detail. By becoming Catholic one would be joining a community of people with the same interests and some measure of agreement on fundamental principles.

Further, a common misunderstanding (imho) is that Catholicism is whatever somebody in the Vatican says it is. Catholic clergy are a tiny fraction of the Catholic community who have appointed themselves as leaders. They are influential beyond their small numbers for sure, but don't have the ability, or usually even the desire, to enforce a single form of belief on all members.

Catholicism is the sum total of what all Catholics believe, and more importantly, do.

You don't need to educate me on the Catholic Church. As it happens, I investigated it for several years.

In any case, I wasn't even thinking of fringe doctrines - I'd file core beliefs like the existence of God and the validity of the sacraments under "questionable" or "negative".

 

[LuisDantas]

The way I see it, the flaw is in some religions insisting on presenting themselves as solidly immutable and dogmatic.

It should be seen as natural for people to question and correct the course of their own religions.

I'm not big on the idea of "partial Catholicism", though. It does sound more than a little bit like giving credit to people who did not earn it.

 

[Typist]

I'm not big on the idea of "partial Catholicism", though. It does sound more than a little bit like giving credit to people who did not earn it.

I don't see how it has anything to do with giving credit. I mean only that, for the better and the worse, the Catholic Church dominated the cultural landscape of western civilization to a degree unimaginable today for 1,000 years.

As westerners, we simply don't have the power to step completely out of such an enormous influence, even if we vehemently hate the Catholic Church. As example, the same may be true in China in regards to Confucianism. Influences of that scale are not a suit of clothes one can take on and off at will.

 

[Jumi]

What are specific Catholic traits that we have?

 

[Typist]

What are specific Catholic traits that we have?

Well, this thing we are doing here where every idea gets challenged by another, very Jesuit.

Over thinking intellectual nerdism, very Catholic.

Faith in the infinite reach of powers un-proven, whether they be gods or human reason, Catholics, and atheists too.

Excessive concern with ideology such as is seen on net forums, Catholic again.

The obsessions with sex which dominate every corner of western media? Yep, you guessed it, them again!

The morality with which many justly criticize failings of the Catholic Church, pounded in to the heads of western culture by 1,000 years of Catholic influence.

I realize this will be impossible for many atheist ideologues to swallow, and that's ok, I'm not going to beat it to death. But for those with a more open mind, it's a lesson in humility. None of us fully choose what our beliefs are.

 

[Jumi]

Ideology I'm not interested in if I can avoid it, neither with sex and obsessions about it. The morality pre-existed the Catholic Church as can be seen in various philosophical writings before them.

Nerdism? What does that mean.

I realize this will be impossible for many atheist ideologues to swallow, and that's ok, I'm not going to beat it to death. But for those with a more open mind, it's a lesson in humility. None of us fully choose what our beliefs are.

A lesson in humility this is not, maybe an attempt to humiliate? Read your own words.

 

[Typist]

A lesson in humility this is not....

Yes, for those unable or unwilling to accept the limits of their own choice, it will not be a useful lesson, agreed.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't see how it has anything to do with giving credit. I mean only that, for the better and the worse, the Catholic Church dominated the cultural landscape of western civilization to a degree unimaginable today for 1,000 years.

That I just don't think I can agree with, although I think a sufficiently generous person might.

But even if I did, agree with you, that would make me culturally influenced by Catholicism (which I am), not a partial Catholic.

As westerners, we simply don't have the power to step completely out of such an enormous influence, even if we vehemently hate the Catholic Church. As example, the same may be true in China in regards to Confucianism. Influences of that scale are not a suit of clothes one can take on and off at will.

I think you are actually being rude with Catholicism here, by reducing its significance to its political influence.

Nor do I think it is very practical to compare and contrast Catholicism with Confucianism. They're very different religions.

 

[LuisDantas]

Well, this thing we are doing here where every idea gets challenged by another, very Jesuit.

Over thinking intellectual nerdism, very Catholic.

Faith in the infinite reach of powers un-proven, whether they be gods or human reason, Catholics, and atheists too.

Excessive concern with ideology such as is seen on net forums, Catholic again.

The obsessions with sex which dominate every corner of western media? Yep, you guessed it, them again!

The morality with which many justly criticize failings of the Catholic Church, pounded in to the heads of western culture by 1,000 years of Catholic influence.

I realize this will be impossible for many atheist ideologues to swallow, and that's ok, I'm not going to beat it to death. But for those with a more open mind, it's a lesson in humility. None of us fully choose what our beliefs are.

Roughly the first half of this list looks all the world like a list of misappropriations and misattributions.

 

[Typist]

That I just don't think I can agree with, although I think a sufficiently generous person might.

Ok, fair enough, I have no problem with you not agreeing.

But even if I did, agree with you, that would make me culturally influenced by Catholicism (which I am), not a partial Catholic.

I'm agreeable to that choice of words if you prefer them.

I think you are actually being rude with Catholicism here, by reducing its significance to its political influence.

Hmm... Not sure where you got this, as I don't recall mentioning politics. I was discussing values, paradigms, ways of seeing the world.

Nor do I think it is very practical to compare and contrast Catholicism with Confucianism. They're very different religions.

Except that um, I didn't compare and contrast them. I only pointed to the fact that both have had a big influence on their respective cultures.

 

[`mud]

The only word that comes to mind is "TWISTOLAGIST"
Summing Catholics and atheists in much of his posts is quite interesting.
Maybe I'll re-read some of his 'stuff', maybe not, I'm sure there's more to come.
How about that Typist ?
~
'mud

 

[Jumi]

Yes, for those unable or unwilling to accept the limits of their own choice, it will not be a useful lesson, agreed.

If you say to someone "be humble and accept my view" you are not being humble yourself, but instead you are being proud and making the other person less.

Do you accept that Catholicism didn't really bring any of these things you mentioned into Western culture, but it was taken from pre-existing ideas in the mediterranean?

 

[Typist]

How about that Typist ?

How about it indeed Mr. Mudd.

 

[Typist]

If you say to someone "be humble and accept my view" you are not being humble yourself, but instead you are being proud and making the other person less.

I didn't ask you to be humble and accept my view. I am typing. You are free to read or not, as you wish, with my non-religious blessing in either case.

Do you accept that Catholicism didn't really bring any of these things you mentioned into Western culture, but it was taken from pre-existing ideas in the mediterranean?

I agree that Catholics should not be given credit for anything at all and that the Pope is the anti-Christ and that only a holy atheist jihad can rid the world of this horrible threat to all that is good and just and wonderful, and then the utopia will come.

Better?