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Featured Religion and Atheism

Discussion in 'General Religious Debates' started by usfan, May 26, 2019.

  1. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Psychological Projection? I suspect that we are all projectors to some extent. Every time we make assumptions about anyone or anything, we are projecting our unconscious impulses through our subconscious mind. This is a coping mechanism, that defends our ego against "unconscious impulses". For example, if I was fat, I would unconsciously see others as either being too fat or too thin. I would project these subconscious feelings and emotions about self onto someone else. This helps to cope with a whole bunch of uncomfortable, embarrassing, and annoying emotions that you don’t want to unconsciously deal with. So, regarding my projecting, was there anything that I was projecting, that was not true or not certain? What exactly is the blame that I am incorporating? Lets look at your case, and see how well I am projecting, shall we? You are the one that claim,

    to have evidence to support your claim that a Messenger of God exists. You then claim that this evidence is only sufficient to convince you.
    that God exists because God exist, because you know God exists, because you believe it with certainty.
    that a consensus of the beliefs of 93% of the population, should be evidence enough to convince the other 7%.
    that the evidence is the evidence.
    that religion itself is the best evidence, and that Atheists do not like religion.
    that the Revelations of Baha'u'llah is the evidence that God exists.
    that a Messenger of God told a human that a God exists, by writing it down. This is more evidence that God exists.
    that you haven't pasted any quotes from your book of faith(Baha'i), when you have clearly done in numerous posts.
    that no one can know God. Yet you claim God is good, love, all-powerful and all-knowing, knows more than humans, does not want to be detected, gave us our brain and our free-will,
    that women wanting an abortion are selfish, and don't want to be inconvenienced. (insensitive and callous)

    I do not find the beauty and mysticism of the Baha’i writings as intoxicating and as compelling as you do. I'm afraid that your independent investigation of truth, is referring to metaphysical and spiritual truths, not actual truths. Since the actual truths from your religious precepts, are far too obvious and simple to warrant much of an investigation. I suppose that if we just take your word for everything out of your mouth, and be led down one rabbit-hole after another, and avoid using any critical thinking, we too can call ourselves Theists. Or, am I just projecting?
     
  2. It Aint Necessarily So

    It Aint Necessarily So Well-Known Member
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    Double standard. You shower your target - people that don't respect your religion or religion in general, people who consider religious a pejorative term - with insults such as liar, indoctrinee and snowflake, and then wilt like a little girl when called a snowflake yourself, crying "Ad hom ! He insulted me" like a burglar running to the police when his intended victim takes his gun and turns it on him.

    Too bad that all you can do is list the comments that a could only offend a snowflake. Rebutting the argument made that you are a passive-aggressive provocateur wasn't an option, since you have no defense to the charge that you're here to demean those who you feel don't respect your religion

    You're here to scapegoat others. I don't see anybody buying your "Poor me, I'm just here to clarify matters to hateful atheists that attack me relentlessly for no reason." Your pants are down, your cover shot. You're here to call atheists religious in the hope of angering them. It was an ill-advised strategy given how easily it has been retroflexed and turned on you.

    Stop with this pretense already. I'm not on any boat with you, nor am I searching for anything with you. I found what I was looking for decades ago when I left Christianity for atheism and secular humanism. That's my boat, and you have been firing across its bow pretending that we are allies in some common purpose, and that you are here to be helpful. No you're not. You're here to punish those that don't respect religion.

    You lament that the word religious had become a pejorative, but fail to see your own role in causing that to be the case. What am I supposed to approve of in the effect that it has had on you? Should I be happy that this institution churns out millions of people with atheophobic attitudes like yours? Should atheists remain silent as you attack them? You seem to expect as much.
     
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  3. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    ..no problem
    Good luck
     
  4. wandering peacefully

    wandering peacefully Active Member

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    You've had your chance with your atheist enemies who as kindly as possible, attempted to explain the errors in your thinking concerning atheists. After many tries by many a-theists, you are unable to understand the concept. So I'm out. Good luck.
     
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  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, I am not seeing what you are seeing, and I have been posting to atheists almost exclusively for about five years, on various forums...
    What I see is that a numbered few atheists are devoted to science and some are devoted to causes such as saving species that are dying out, but I do not see many atheists like that...
    Most atheists just live their lives and they are devoted to friends and family, and some humanists go in for humanitarian works.

    Atheists are really not that different from believers, EXCEPT that they do not believe in God.
    Moreover, my religion teaches that we are all one human family, and God loves all of us.

    "How ignorant therefore the thought that God who created man, educated and nurtured him, surrounded him with all blessings, made the sun and all phenomenal existence for his benefit, bestowed upon him tenderness and kindness, and then did not love him. This is palpable ignorance, for no matter to what religion a man belongs even though he be an atheist or materialist nevertheless God nurtures him, bestows His kindness and sheds upon him His light."
    ('Abdu'l-Baha, Star of the West, Vol. 8, issue 7, p. 78)​

    That is the same teaching as we see in the Bible:

    Matthew 5:45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
    Humans are not evil or good according to what they believe, it is what they do in life that differentiates them.
    Belief does not make one a good person, behavior does.
     
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  6. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    Imo, believers should not speak for atheists and what they believe, not anymore than atheists should speak for believers...
    We can each speak for ourselves.
    So if there was any error committed on this thread, it was people speaking for other people.
    Another error was people not listening to others when they speak.

    I know what atheists believe and disbelieve, because I listen when they tell me.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    That is true, and that is WHY we should NOT make assumptions about other people. We should always ask them and then believe them when they say what they think or believe, because they know themselves better than we can know them…
    That is also true, but if we are self-aware and live consciously, then we can avoid projecting our unconscious impulses onto other people, maybe not ALL the time, but MOST of the time.

    When it comes to criticizing or seeing faults, they key is to be looking at ourselves and our own thoughts, feelings, and behavior, rather than looking at the faults of others. It is a Baha’i belief that self dissatisfaction is a sign of progress, and that is because we can only fix what we are aware of and we can only fix ourselves, not others.

    And what is the harm of seeing our faults? I know what my faults are but I do not feel compelled to share them on a public forum. However, because I am constantly aware of them, I can guard against them coming out and hurting other people because I can compensate for them by trying to go in the opposite direction when I am talking to other people.
    You said: Maybe you should learn the difference between, "disparaging" and "derogatory". Misrepresenting what others say is clearly an important part of your method of discourse for defending your beliefs. That is, along with sarcasm, elitism, arrogance, and latent insecurities.

    This is what I was referring to when I said you are projecting, because you do exactly what you accused this poster of doing. That is not to say that he does not ALSO do it, but that is irrelevant. One should not accuse others of doing things, especially if they cannot SEE that they also do the same things. Yes, I agree that he misrepresented atheism by saying they are religious, but the best way to handle that is explain how you think and feel and why you are not religious, as he described you, NOT to strike out at him. It never accomplishes anything when we strike out at others, all it does is cause a defensive reaction and disharmony. People are going to disagree about beliefs on a religious forum, but the best way to handle that is speak for yourself and listen to what others SAY about themselves, and believe what they say, rather than thinking you know more about them than they know about themselves.

    Thanks for trying to clarify what I have said. Now let’s look at what you think I have said and I will tell you whether it is true or false, because words can often be misconstrued on these forums, and I am the only one who knows what I think.
    Yes, I have claimed that I have evidence, and it is evidence that convinced me and other Bahais; otherwise, they would not ALSO be Baha’is. If it only convinced ME, I would be the only bahai in the world. It convinced me and 7 million other people.
    If God exists, God exists, because that is REALITY; God does not exist because I believe that or know it with certainty since beliefs do not determine REALITY.
    No, not at all. The 93% of believers should NOT even be trying to convince atheists that God exists, because that is not their responsibility.

    No, the fact that 93% of people believe that God exists is NOT evidence that God exists, because 93% of people could all be wrong.

    It is the fallacy of Argumentum ad populum that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia
    No, the evidence is not the evidence; rather evidence is evidence and the evidence is what indicates that what I believe is true.
    Yes, I believe that religion is the best evidence that God exists; actually it is the only real evidence because other evidence does not come directly from God, it is indirect.

    Yes, what I have observed by posting to atheists 24/7 on various forums for five years is that atheists do not like religion. If they liked religion they would be willing to accept it as evidence for the existence of God.
    Yes, I believe that the Revelation of Baha’u’llah is evidence that God exists, but it is not the ONLY evidence. The Bible and the Qur’an and other scriptures are also evidence.
    A Messenger of God knew that God existed because God revealed Himself to that Messenger. Then the Messenger wrote it down. This is part of the evidence that God exists, the scriptures.

    To be clear, the only Messengers that wrote anything down themselves were the Bab and Baha’u’llah. Mohammad revealed the Qur’an to scribes who wrote it down, but the Bible was not revealed by God to a Messenger; it was written by men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    Yes, I have posted quotes from the Baha’i Writings, but I did not post them directly to YOU, not since you told me you were not interested in Baha’i some time ago.
    I have said that nobody can ever know the Essence of God, God’s intrinsic nature, but we can know some of the Attributes of God and we can know the Will of God for every age, because these are revealed to the Messengers of God.
    No, I did not say that wanting an abortion was selfish, I said that HAVING an abortion is selfish, and I said that is not true across the board, because there are exceptions.
    I never said that I find beauty and mysticism in the Bahai writings intoxicating or compelling.
    I never said anyone should EVER take MY word for anything I believe. I have repeatedly said that if people want to know the truth about God or my religion, they have to independently investigate and determine if it is true or not.

    One should never avoid critical thinking. I am a Baha’i because of critical thinking, not because I want to be one.
     
  8. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Clearly your understanding of the importance of projecting is different to mine. It represents only one part of our cognition process. Our genetic and behavioral traits, autonomic and endocrine/exocrine glands, cognitive dissonance, instincts, our limbic, reflexive, and sympathetic response systems, are just a few of the other unconscious/subconscious physical and mental controls, that affect our human condition. Using the term "projecting" is at best misleading, and at worst a pejorative. We do not have any overt conscious control over our unconscious impulses. The assumptions about people we make everyday is hardwired into our psyche by evolution. This is invaluable in determining friend or foe, or fight or flight.

    My faults are not the issue here. Are you are suggesting that whenever someone makes silly, willful, childish, fairy tale claims, that critical thinkers and skeptics should begin the process of introspection, and look at their own faults, and not criticize your nonsense claims? Do you think this method of inquiry will lead to truth and the highest certainty? Maybe all scientists should adopt this new method of inquiry in their search for discovering new knowledge? Every comment I made, I can point to why(and usually do) I made them. It has nothing to do with projecting my own faults. You are no different, and commit the same level of dishonest discourse. Lets just look at your responses to a few comments I mentioned.

    More semantic games. Others did not make the claim. You did. Therefore, we are talking about the evidence that have convinced YOU. Evidence is not subjective or fact-less. Evidence is not unsupported testimonial evidence, it should be objective and able to stand on its own merits. You can't claim to know anything, if you can't show how you know it. Is your claim now, that pregnant women wanting to have an abortion are not selfish? That only those women having an abortion are selfish? WoW! Just more semantic games to mask social apathy, insensitivity, and callousness.

    This is just pure obfuscated incoherent gibberish. There is no observed or objective-based connection between God and reality. Also, how does the evidence indicate what you believe is true? Just because you say so(your word)? Maybe one day you might begin to realize that a God position, will never be the default position. No matter how much you try to convince yourself that it is.

    You have the right to believe in anything you want. You also have the right to force your reality to fit your belief-fantasies. But critical and skeptical thinkers are not fooled by your deceptions, misdirection, double talk, and intellectual dishonesty. You seem to be playing both sides of the argument, to give your views a perception of honesty and understanding. But you merely say what the undecideds want to hear, as a lure to attract their attention. Especially since there are no independent methods of investigations that can determine the truth, or falsity, of a God or spirituality itself. This is another lure, since critical thinking requires objective evidence to be even relevant.

    I never said you did. I said that, "I do not find the beauty and mysticism of the Baha’i writings as intoxicating and as compelling as you do.". Please read carefully next time. My comment was in reference to a quote that you posted(I didn't say to me either, before you look for another excuse). Finally, stop saying you have evidence for your claims, since you KNOW what evidence is needed. Stop claiming you don't know the nature or mind of God(or the Messenger), when you keep making claims that you do(do I need to list them all?). Finally, stop denying your own quotes, by changing the goal posts every time it is used as evidence, to cite your meaning. This brings into question your credibility and integrity. If all this is just your belief, then go for it. But if you think your belief is true, then prove it. If you can't, then don't try an baffle us with BS. I'm certain that there are hundreds of other threads that may be more suited to your special kind of logic.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Well-Known Member

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    I did not say I thought that projection was the main cause for how we think. It is just one factor of many. Clearly our thought process is complex.
    I did not say that your faults are the issue. I only suggested that people in general should look at their own faults rather than the faults of others.

    No I am not suggesting that whenever someone makes [what you consider to be] silly, willful, childish, fairy tale claims, that critical thinkers and skeptics should begin the process of introspection, and look at their own faults, and not criticize [what you consider to be] nonsense claims. Criticize the claims all you want to, just do not criticize the PERSON who is making the claims.
    I do not know why you have to get so defensive? I am not accusing you of anything. I was just talking about people in general, and how I think they should behave.

    If someone accuses someone of faults that they have then they are most likely projecting their faults onto that other person, even if that person also has those faults.
    That is only YOUR standard for evidence, but YOU do not set the standards for everyone else in the world. I have facts about my religion that I consider evidence but how those facts are interpreted is subjective.
    I make no claims; I just have beliefs and opinions. I play no games, I am just giving my HONEST opinion, and I have a right to my opinion. Just because you do not agree with my opinion you hurl insults at me. You might want to ask yourself why you expect everyone to agree with you. Not everyone will. Some people do not believe in abortion, and I am sure you already know that. I never used to give it a second thought till I thought about it.

    There you go again, criticizing me, and maybe you do not even realize how much you do that? It is constant.
    You cannot even get through a few lines of a post before you start with your personal assessments and criticisms --
    “games to mask social apathy, insensitivity, and callousness.”

    This is an attack on my character. Do you really think that nobody else notices this? Most people are just too polite to say anything to you.
    I never said anything you are saying I said so you misconstrued what I said.

    I did not say that there is any observed or objective-based connection between God and reality.

    I said If God exists, God exists, because that is REALITY;

    The evidence indicates to me that what I believe is true.

    The evidence does not indicate to everyone that what I believe is true.

    A position is not true simply because it is the default position. The default position could be either true or false.
    “deceptions, misdirection, double talk, and intellectual dishonesty.”
    More personal criticisms, you just cannot control yourself, can you?

    Nobody else ever accuses me of these things except you. Logically speaking, what does that tell you? It tells me that you are the one who is misperceiving me.
    I am not playing games here. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I do not care what other peoples’ perceptions are I am not here to impress anyone. You are impugning motives to me. Why can’t you just stick with the subject at hand? Why all the personal commentaries. All that does is distract from the subject.

    No, there are no independent methods of investigations that can determine the truth, or falsity, of a God or spirituality itself. That is not something that can be proven true or false.
    I am not going to play your silly blame games. Johnny, you did x, no, Johnny I did not do x! How childish. Excuse for what? Everything always has to be somebody’s fault, doesn’t it? Who cares who said what? This is not a court of law.
    I won’t stop and you cannot stop me. I do not care what evidence YOU need. I have the evidence I need.
    No, I never said I know the nature of or the mind of God. All I ever said is that I know the Will of God because it was revealed to Baha’u’llah. The Will of God is not the Mind of God; it is what God Wills for humanity. Go ahead, find them and list them, so you can try to prove you are right again and I am wrong.
    You sure do like to tell me to stop saying things. If this was your forum you could make me stop, but it isn’t your forum.

    I do not have any goal posts because I do not have any goals. Only people with motives have goals. I just respond to what I see in posts. I have no motives.

    I am not trying to baffle anybody. That is just some weird sort of thing you imagine.

    I do not have to prove my belief just because I think it is true. I must have told you dozens of times I cannot prove my belief is true, so why keep asking me to prove it?
     
    #469 Trailblazer, Jun 9, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
  10. Truly Enlightened

    Truly Enlightened Well-Known Member

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    Changing the goal posts has nothing to do with personal goals and motives. Another straw man. Clearly, there seems to be a big difference in the words you use to create a thought, and the true meaning of your thoughts. As long as you can keep saying that you never said those exact words, you can keep denying the meaning of your words, or even change the meaning. You sometimes create your own straw man to deny. Why did you assign truth or falsity to the default position(no God position)? Do you that a God belief is the default position? If so you have the burden of proof. Another straw man. When will you ever understand, that it is you that is making these assertions. You are the one making these claims. You have the burden of proof to back up these claims. Do you really expect any rational person just to take your word, that the supernatural or a Messenger of God exists? What makes you think you know what the "Will" of God is? What makes you think that you know what the nature(all the Omni's, and love) of God is? You KNOW absolutely nothing for certain, no matter how many man made, man created, self-professed Messengers of God(prophets) tell you that you do. No matter how logical it may seem to you, without one piece of evidence, it's just another child's fairy tale being told by adults. If you can't show it, then you don't know it. I certainly can show you a lot of things that I know.

    Do you even understand the nature, and relevance of your own extraordinary claims? Do you understand why any supernatural claim would be so hard to believe? Let alone any supernatural claim that provide zero evidence? Of course you don't have to prove anything, because you can't even if you had to. No one can. But, if you are still truly committed to misleading and infecting the unsuspected to increase membership(goal), https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jt0cBv39RZI would you please at least state this in the beginning,

    That the evidence you claim supporting your belief, is only evidence that you believe is true. This gives rational people a heads-up.
    That your supernatural claims are only what you believe are true, and that you have no scientific objective evidence to support your claims.
    That you are not trying to convince anyone of anything, and don't care what other people's perceptions are.
    That if anyone criticizes your logic, beliefs, or assertions, that they are just projecting their own faults onto you
    That you will distort, misrepresent, take out of context, equivocate, deflate, anything that threatens your belief in fairy tales.
    That everything out of your mouth is just your own opinion and belief

    I think once you reach the point where you can't not belief in something, you have reached a state of cultist mentality. No amount of reasoning or critical thinking, can compete with cognitive dissonance, presuppositional bias(top-down logic), and the delusion that you are in control. Clearly, you are not interested in the exchange of ideas, you seem only interested in just going the distance. All I have gained from this wasteful discourse, is some insight into the closed mind of a cultist. Now I know what deprogrammers must go through, to help those who are completely convinced that they are also right. My requests for you to stop making certain claims, was to avoid further confusion and misunderstandings. Can't stop you? Now who's being defensive? Fortunately death doesn't care what you believe in. We are all in the same boat I'm afraid. Good luck.
     
  11. wandering peacefully

    wandering peacefully Active Member

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    Amen! :)
     
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  12. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    LOL! :D

    Right. Beliefs never hurt anyone... :rolleyes:

    Tell that to the victims of genocide from national socialists and communists in the last century.

    Tell that to terror victims of ideologues.

    Beliefs are the well spring from whence the actions flow. Actions do not just randomly happen, with no basis.

    Shots at me, personally, are just ad hom deflections, from 'debaters!' without reason.
     
  13. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    No problem. Everyone has to do their own believing and their own dying...

    Ive just examined some terminology, I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs.
    :shrug:
     
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  14. usfan

    usfan Well-Known Member

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    Since you're not 'out', but still posting, I'll reply.
    1. I'm not looking for a chance, whatever you mean by that.
    2. I have no 'atheist enemies!', from my perspective, at least. This is a demeaning smear.
    3. Nobody has 'explained errors!', just brow beat me with personal accusations, for suggesting the term 'religious!' applies EQUALLY to atheistic beliefs. :eek: ..and, i don't remember any 'kind!' replies.. just hostile indignation at the suggestion that THEIR beliefs were religious, like everyone else's.
    4. Casting aspersions on my understanding is just another, tired, ad hominem deflection, to disparage your 'enemy!!'
    5. Don't project your hangups and biases on me.
    6. If you do leave the thread, again, good luck to you, too. ;)
     
  15. wandering peacefully

    wandering peacefully Active Member

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    Okay.
     
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