Reconciling Paul

[Ken Brown]

Ken, you missed the part where I said "Factually" there was no flood 4400 years ago.

Its fact Ken.

Its not up for debate, its not a guess.

I dont know why you try to debate, because your mind is made up and not open to learn. If your here only to preach you may try the same faith section.

Look at what your doing here, your denouncing scientist much more educated then yourself, and you also denounce Professors of NT studies.

Hi outhouse, now you are acting like the scientist and Professors are infallible. Facts can be wrong. It was a fact that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and it wasn't up for debate, but most now feel those facts were flawed, although I still have my doubts. It's like I said, you can have your facts and opinion, and I can have my opinion, and someday one of us will be a little embarrassed. Here is a site you might want to take a gander at:

Noah's Flood: Did It Really Happen? - Good News Magazine | United Church of God

KB

 

[outhouse]

Hi outhouse, now you are acting like the scientist and Professors are infallible. Facts can be wrong. It was a fact that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, and it wasn't up for debate, but most now feel those facts were flawed, although I still have my doubts. It's like I said, you can have your facts and opinion, and I can have my opinion, and someday one of us will be a little embarrassed. Here is a site you might want to take a gander at:

Noah's Flood: Did It Really Happen? - Good News Magazine | United Church of God

KB

Please Ken. There comes a point where the evidence is weighed. Not thrown out because itgoes against religion.


Here is something from the first paragraph of your link

In the six hundredth year of Noah's life

There is no evidence in any civilization that existed 4400 years ago, nor any break in their writing, or culture that is proof positive that 100% a fact, that no global flood ever happened as stated. We have to much known history from 6000 years ago to 4000 years ago, due to the three large civilizations that were writing at that exact time.

There is also no geological evidence of any kind for a global flood.


Yet you want us to believe a global flood and a 600 year old man, isnt mythology

Ignore facts?

Heres two people who placed faith before knowledge.

Second child of faith-healing couple dies after no medical care - U.S. News

The 8-month-old son of Herbert and Catherine Schaible, fundamentalist Christians who believe in the power of prayer ahead of modern medicine, died last week, according to Philadelphia Police spokeswoman Jillian Russell.
The couple have been serving a 10-year probation sentence in the 2009 death of 2-year-old Kent Schaible.

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, it appears you did not closely look at this previous post-http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/3294711-post130.html. You should pay careful attention to 2 Cor 5:14 and answer how all were dead. This is not speaking about Paul dying daily, or about dying a first death, this is speaking about how ALL were drawn INTO the crucifixion of Yeshua and were put to death. You need to answer how all were dead. KB

Hi KB, Right! This is NOT speaking about Paul dying daily to "Sinning"; nor about dying the first death.
2 Cor.5:14-15, "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: And [that] he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again."

Paul answered that in Rom.3:9-31----all are "dead in trespasses and sins" and Eph.2:1 confirms, "And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;"
Jesus Christ's mission was to die the second death for sinners-----Just as those verses verify.

 

[sincerly]

I sort of have a problem with this idea of there being so much symbolism in the OT pointing towards future events. Just to be clear I am not including prophecy. What would be the purpose of God giving inspiration to someone to write verses that pertain to current events and ambiguously to future events, but no one knows they pertain to future events and there is really know why to establish if the future event is the one that is actually thought to be described.

What if the real Messiah came during the Dark Ages and because it was thought to be Jesus he was killed and everything about him disregarded?

Why would God provide such poor evidence when his hot button is to believe through faith? Either he wants everyone to believe and gives evidence that is credible or he makes the claim and nothing else wanting faith to cause the choice.

Hi Pappi, whether or not you want to believe in the prophetic side of the Biblical Scriptures is your choice.
As Amos 3:7 declares, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Symbolism was a teaching tool then and still today.
What is ignored is the fact that GOD gave the correct information/laws which informed one of a correct relationship to GOD and one's fellow Beings. When this was ignored/willfully disbelieved, then GOD sent the Prophets with messages for one to correct the wrong attitudes held by the people.
Those who Repented of contrary opinions were blessed in a right relationship with GOD and neighbors. Those arrogant and defiant ones to the "corrections" were subject to the consequences of lost protection from GOD.(to "natural disasters"or the ravages of the wickedness of mankind.)

Your "what if" isn't taking into account the knowledge of GOD. Jesus Christ is a part of the Trinty. He understood the motives of men while one earth and HIS Second Coming will not be thwarted by any of mankind's plans. Mankind today is making the Choice of believing or disbelieving Jesus and HIS mission.

The evidence has been given since the Creation of all things one sees. The Faith is in the Creator GOD---and the method HE choose to Redeem mankind.

It is incredibly easy to find some vague passage and attribute it to something you have already decided will have such references.

Assumed! But, the critics have jumped upon vague passages which do NOT convey their erroneous ideas/interpretations.

The symbolism, if that is what it is, though does not address the point. God says it is sufficient and does so that there can be no reasonable doubt. To be right leaves us to question does God mean what he says? Can you know that God's word holds true?

The One who wishes/seeks to discredit GOD will doubt GOD in every situation---No matter the situation.

But they did not. We are forced to make this symbolic because it is the only way for it to have any meaning the way we want it to. We ignore that God made no mention of the suffering that would be imposed in addition to not death but the withholding of immortality. The difference is subtle, but at the same time dramatically different.

GOD has said---there is no FORCE---One either believes or disbelieves---and then acts accordingly. One will accept the opinion/conclusion which agrees with the "meaning the way we want it".

Pappi, are you forgetting the (Scriptural)Factor that those evil/disobedient angels are,also, awaiting the close of probation of this world as a factor in their "sentencing"? That cleansing fire is for the disobedience which began in heaven and will end with the total eradication of Sin, death, grave, and those who enjoyed the wages of disobedience.

 

[sincerly]

From the very Beginning, GOD said, "Ye shall surely die"---for your transgression. Yet in clothing the guilty pair it was a sacrificed animal which provided the "clothing" which allowed the "sinners" to be in GOD'S presence. (Even for that brief time before being expelled from the Garden.) (Cont.)
Hi Pappi, I'm paraphrasing my previous statements which you gave these answers.

No, they did not "die that day"--because GOD had made a probational period . 1Pet.1:18-20

From the very Beginning, GOD said, "Ye shall surely die"---for your transgression. Yet in clothing the guilty pair it was a sacrificed animal which provided the "clothing" which allowed the "sinners" to be in GOD'S presence. (Even for that brief time before being expelled from the Garden.)

But they did not. We are forced to make this symbolic because it is the only way for it to have any meaning the way we want it to. We ignore that God made no mention of the suffering that would be imposed in addition to not death but the withholding of immortality. The difference is subtle, but at the same time dramatically different.

Why they were ejected from Eden.

Partially answered in previous post. Obedience was sought by GOD from/by that created pair of human beings. There was no reason to go into your "God did not(s)" at that time---The penalty of Death should have sufficed.

They were sent out of the Garden because of disobedience and to be separated from the "Tree of Life". Cain(first born) proved that to be a wise choice.

AN Animal is not the "YE" shall die". However, one does see an unfolding of that Plan of redemption so that mankind could understand the process.

A simple explanation would not have sufficed?

That was a simple answer; however, back to Amos 3:7,----there is hope in obedience and Repentence.

The "Scape goat" (Day of Atonement) is what that "festival" was portraying---the finally cleansing of all sins from heaven and earth.
AN earthly animal cannot cleanse the Heavenly Sanctuary... but symbolically, did the earthly sanctuary.(And the scriptures state that Jesus is/was the "Lamb slain from before the foundation" for the purpose of Redemption.)

Again, man made concepts trying to understand and control a world he has little grasp of. These are the acts of ignorant men not an all knowing God and certainly not one whose primary attributes include mercy and compassion.

NO! those were GOD given and showed GOD'S Mercy, Compassion and LOVE for mankind.

Heb.10:4 states that the blood of bulls and goats can not take away any sins.

God says they can in Lev, Num, Deu and other places. Hebrews is not the Lord speaking. In the face of what appears to be a contradiction which carries more weight?

But, Jesus said GOD LOVED the world(mankind) to give HIS SON to ransom mankind from that death penalty. Jesus attested to that fact as the reason for HIS "coming to the crucifixion".----"fulfilling the sacrificial offerings" for the redemption of mankind. John 3:16; Matt.5:17-18.

That was "only for the time then present". (Heb.9:1, 9+) GOD isn't humanity, but was willing, John3:16, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. "

Bad day to be Jesus. Why could he not fix this life? What is this life then? Is it just a meaningless period of time? When one accepts Jesus why does he remain trapped in this life. Early Christians and Jews did not view salvation as coming after death. The expectation was that it was to happen in this life. It is not until it became obvious that everyone who believed was living and then dieing without the promised new life that it changed.

That was HIS Mission. However, HE couldn't fix that which refused to accept the only fix for corruption---a restored life from selfishness/me first to a life filled with LOVE and compassion for GOD and Others.
This life is a testing ground to see if one will be compatible with the new heaven and new earth where Love is the Law.
JOB didn't think he was trapped in this life being "all that is", but looked for his "redeemer" and a new life--so did the prophets and those who truly knew and understood the message taught by Jesus and HIS followers.
Jesus and the disciples/Apostles taught that Salvation is accepted in this life, but will be experienced to the fullest in the earth made new. That is still the Scriptural message.

That was a corruption of the Animal sacrifices which GOD did at Eden and Noah upon exiting the ARK----by those who scattered from the Tower of Babel. Human sacrifices were never condoned.

What was Jesus?

GOD, the SON, incarnated in human form.

But still human and still sacrificed as such. You are twisting things to fit your wants it either is or it is not. He is either a human and sacrificed or he is not. Nothing can go forward until that question is answered and once it it cannot be changed to fit a later need.

Pappi, Scripturally that question was settled prior to the Creation of the world.
See above. see Rev.13:8; 1Pet.1:18-21, "Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, [as] silver and gold, from your vain conversation [received] by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. "
Jesus was Fathered by the Holy Spirit--NOT BY A HUMAN father.

No One is required to eat or drink the Blood of Jesus Christ; that is symbolic in ingesting Jesus as spiritually the food and drink that sustains and vitalizes one's life. In HIM, one lives moves and has one's being.

Earlier symbolism is important and now it is just that with no real meaning. Why would God through such effort to portray the act as an abomination only to later make it the sign of his new covenant. Drinking the blood of Christ is now the equivalent of circumcision and for many it is more than symbolic. The actually think it is real blood and necessary to be included in the covenant.

The real symbolism still is factual and TRUE. Jesus did Fulfill that which was seen in the Scriptures and "concerning HIM". Agreed, some groups have embellished/deminished the sayings of Jesus/the scriptures.
Circumcision is that of the heart---Deut.10:16; Rom.2:27-29, "And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither [is that] circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he [is] a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision [is that] of the heart, in the spirit, [and] not in the letter; whose praise [is] not of men, but of God. "

 

[Pappillion001]

Hi Pappi, whether or not you want to believe in the prophetic side of the Biblical Scriptures is your choice.
As Amos 3:7 declares, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Think about prophecy. Knowledge of specific events prior to their occurrence. There is really only two possible answers, both being less ridiculous than any others.

The future has already occurred and God exists all through time or can jump to different periods or whatever, the point being it has happened already. Then what is the point of telling someone some vague description of something with no way to reference when and no way to insure that when it does happen that it is the event referenced.

or

God is guessing and by telling us what might happen he is attempting to cause certain things to occur. The typical human response, even when done with the best of intentions, is rarely positive. We find such behavior to be manipulative, deceitful, disrespectful and demeaning as well as a long list of others. If this is the case we must question the integrity, intention and authority of God. What does he not tell us? Why does he hide it from us? Is he able to do what he claims the way he claims?

If the future is any number of possibilities to be determined by the choices we make now and his intention is for a specific outcome which requires action in the present then what is the reason for being so vague and risking that it may not happen or may be different than what was intended?

As confirmation is a silly assertion as these are never specific or beyond a reasonable doubt. If its purpose id to confirm something then you don't require that faith be part of it. It totally defeats the reason it was given and makes God seem incompetent.

If these are warnings that isn't prophecy. Saying you will be sick if you drink all night is not prophecy.

Symbolism was a teaching tool then and still today.

Would you not agree that in order for it to be a useful teaching tool the student should know it is symbolic? Should the symbolism have some obvious bridge by which the student can grasp what is being taught through the relationship?

What is ignored is the fact that GOD gave the correct information/laws which informed one of a correct relationship to GOD and one's fellow Beings.

As long as you were Jewish. He didn't give anybody else anything. (Yet oddly they managed to figure it out by themselves)

When this was ignored/willfully disbelieved, then GOD sent the Prophets with messages for one to correct the wrong attitudes held by the people.

OK

Those who Repented of contrary opinions were blessed in a right relationship with GOD and neighbors. Those arrogant and defiant ones to the "corrections" were subject to the consequences of lost protection from GOD.(to "natural disasters"or the ravages of the wickedness of mankind.)

I want to be sure I get this before responding. It is the right relationship with God or lack thereof that causes natural disasters, war, genocide, the flu or these things are ever possible but as long as you are right with God they will not effect you?

Your "what if" isn't taking into account the knowledge of GOD. Jesus Christ is a part of the Trinty. He understood the motives of men while one earth and HIS Second Coming will not be thwarted by any of mankind's plans. Mankind today is making the Choice of believing or disbelieving Jesus and HIS mission.

You don't see how you are contradicting yourself do you? First why come a second time? Why not erase the suffering of the last 2000 years and do everything that needed to be done then?

Going back to prophecy, not that he will, but could man thwart God's plan for the future? That would suggest the future has various possibilities and is unknown, making prophecy a guess. It would also suggest that in the big picture God has no power over man except that which man permits him.

The evidence has been given since the Creation of all things one sees. The Faith is in the Creator GOD---and the method HE choose to Redeem mankind.

I see a magician pull a rabbit out of his hat, but I don't call that proof of magic, but you are suggesting I should. How do we deal with what would have been considered evidence of God because of things in our world we didn't understand, but now can be explained and recreated in a controlled manner and predictable outcomes? Say fire, lightning, disease or human reproduction, the presence of the moon or the northern lights?

Assumed!

No really, give it a try.

But, the critics have jumped upon vague passages which do NOT convey their erroneous ideas/interpretations.

???

The One who wishes/seeks to discredit GOD will doubt GOD in every situation---No matter the situation.

The one who wishes/seeks to credit GOD will believe in GOD in every situation---No matter the situation.

GOD has said---there is no FORCE---One either believes or disbelieves---and then acts accordingly. One will accept the opinion/conclusion which agrees with the "meaning the way we want it".

The force is one believes or disbelieves. Why am I being forced to participate? Why may I not decline

Pappi, are you forgetting the (Scriptural)Factor that those evil/disobedient angels are,also, awaiting the close of probation of this world as a factor in their "sentencing"? That cleansing fire is for the disobedience which began in heaven and will end with the total eradication of Sin, death, grave, and those who enjoyed the wages of disobedience.

Are you discounting those evil/disobedient angels thinking they cannot alter God's plan. Think on the significance of sin originating in Heaven. That its grip was so tight that it has yet to be completely purged. Yet man is secure that he is wiser then those angels and that even if they could try and mislead him he would know. Is God just entertaining himself with this period in which he lets these things happen and then with a snap of his fingers or as a thought make everything the way you envision?

Does God not say there will be false prophets? Does not God say to know if a prophet is real see if what he says is true? Would that not suggest that there are times where one should not listen based on faith alone?

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Pappi, whether or not you want to believe in the prophetic side of the Biblical Scriptures is your choice.
As Amos 3:7 declares, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Think about prophecy. Knowledge of specific events prior to their occurrence. There is really only two possible answers, both being less ridiculous than any others.

The future has already occurred and God exists all through time or can jump to different periods or whatever, the point being it has happened already. Then what is the point of telling someone some vague description of something with no way to reference when and no way to insure that when it does happen that it is the event referenced.

or

God is guessing and by telling us what might happen he is attempting to cause certain things to occur. The typical human response, even when done with the best of intentions, is rarely positive. We find such behavior to be manipulative, deceitful, disrespectful and demeaning as well as a long list of others. If this is the case we must question the integrity, intention and authority of God. What does he not tell us? Why does he hide it from us? Is he able to do what he claims the way he claims?

If the future is any number of possibilities to be determined by the choices we make now and his intention is for a specific outcome which requires action in the present then what is the reason for being so vague and risking that it may not happen or may be different than what was intended?

As confirmation is a silly assertion as these are never specific or beyond a reasonable doubt. If its purpose id to confirm something then you don't require that faith be part of it. It totally defeats the reason it was given and makes God seem incompetent.

If these are warnings that isn't prophecy. Saying you will be sick if you drink all night is not prophecy.[/quote]

Hi pappi, You didn't answer from the Scriptures themselves---but as Col.2:8 says, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Jesus Christ told a group, "Ye do err not knowing the scriptures". Those Scriptures Start out By acknowledging the Creator GOD and ALL that HE MADE. GOD very well does know our every functioning cell and its actions and reactions. Initially all things were Created and declared upon final "finishing"/"Ceasing to Create"---"very Good."

Mankind was a/the "free thinking Being" which caused non-harmonious conditions to occur. That action had/was given a "restoration" plan---even "before the foundation of the world".
It isn't GOD'S WILL that ANY PERSON "should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". (2Pet.3:9)

In John 3:16 Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Isa.42:8-9, "I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. "

John 13:19, "Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]."

What is ignored is the fact that GOD gave the correct information/laws which informed one of a correct relationship to GOD and one's fellow Beings.

As long as you were Jewish. He didn't give anybody else anything. (Yet oddly they managed to figure it out by themselves)

Did they?? That isn't the message given in multiple verses.Num.15:14,29, "And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever [be] among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.......Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. "

In the sight of GOD who only made a pair of human beings(Adam and Eve) ALL humans are equal. GOD is "NOT a respecter of persons".
This is seen in Deut.10:17 and Acts 10:34.
It was the Jewish Nation who failed to teach the other Nations the laws of GOD, but took upon themselves the laws pertaining to the other "gods".

(Cont.)

 

[sincerly]

Those who Repented of contrary opinions were blessed in a right relationship with GOD and neighbors. Those arrogant and defiant ones to the "corrections" were subject to the consequences of lost protection from GOD.(to "natural disasters"or the ravages of the wickedness of mankind.)

I want to be sure I get this before responding. It is the right relationship with God or lack thereof that causes natural disasters, war, genocide, the flu or these things are ever possible but as long as you are right with God they will not effect you?

Pappi, Since The Resurrection of Jesus and the "unto all the world with the whatosever I have told you, there hasn't been a "Nation of Believers", but "Believers in every Nation". Therefore, "Natural disasters" (Floods, famines, earthquakes, windstorms, etc.) effect the good and the bad. As does physical ailments.
At the time of the OT Writings, the peoples of a certain Belief lived in groupings of those individuals.(kingdoms). However, from the Babylonian Captivity to the present day, The Jewish peoples have not had a "land" of their own----until the present "State of Israel".
As stated above, The Creator GOD'S people are seen as individual Believers in ALL Nations. Rom.2:27-29; 9:4-11; Gal.3:26-29.

Again, Rom.8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. "

The principle is that whatever comes upon a true Believer in the end was done with GOD'S purpose at the start. (Job as an example--- as was Joseph)

Your "what if" isn't taking into account the knowledge of GOD. Jesus Christ is a part of the Trinty. He understood the motives of men while one earth and HIS Second Coming will not be thwarted by any of mankind's plans. Mankind today is making the Choice of believing or disbelieving Jesus and HIS mission.

You don't see how you are contradicting yourself do you? First why come a second time? Why not erase the suffering of the last 2000 years and do everything that needed to be done then?

Going back to prophecy, not that he will, but could man thwart God's plan for the future? That would suggest the future has various possibilities and is unknown, making prophecy a guess. It would also suggest that in the big picture God has no power over man except that which man permits him.

Pappi, the first time was to fulfill the Scriptural prophecies as Jesus was the "Image" which casted the Shadow/those animal sacrifices over the past centuries. Col.2:2-17
There were still prophecies to be fulfilled (not by Jesus Christ) and people to decide for a or against having Jesus as Lord of their lives.(per scriptures).
No! Mankind will not ever be able to thwart GOD'S PLANS.
Man can only Choose between accepting or rejecting the offered pardon(with its conditions) for transgressions.

The evidence has been given since the Creation of all things one sees. The Faith is in the Creator GOD---and the method HE choose to Redeem mankind.

I see a magician pull a rabbit out of his hat, but I don't call that proof of magic, but you are suggesting I should. How do we deal with what would have been considered evidence of God because of things in our world we didn't understand, but now can be explained and recreated in a controlled manner and predictable outcomes? Say fire, lightning, disease or human reproduction, the presence of the moon or the northern lights?

You may accept the theory of evolution as the reason for all you see, but I see a Loving, Compassionate,Creator GOD. I, also, see the mystery of the ages which Paul wrote concerning. See, Matt.13:17; Luke 8:10; Col. 2:2; 1Tim.3:16; Rev.10:7

The one who wishes/seeks to credit GOD will believe in GOD in every situation---No matter the situation.

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

GOD has said---there is no FORCE---One either believes or disbelieves---and then acts accordingly. One will accept the opinion/conclusion which agrees with the "meaning the way we want it".

The force is one believes or disbelieves. Why am I being forced to participate? Why may I not decline

Pappi, you made the choice to debate the Biblical Scriptures. NO one forced you to participate. And you certainly can decline to participate; and decline to acknowledge the Scriptures as truth; and decline to believe.

The Scriptures only relate the message in them. What one does with the messages contained in them----is a conclusion made by the individual. What in you caused any "force"?? The strawman you built is of your own making.

Pappi, are you forgetting the (Scriptural)Factor that those evil/disobedient angels are,also, awaiting the close of probation of this world as a factor in their "sentencing"?
That cleansing fire is for the disobedience which began in heaven and will end with the total eradication of Sin, death, grave, and those who enjoyed the wages of disobedience.

Are you discounting those evil/disobedient angels thinking they cannot alter God's plan. Think on the significance of sin originating in Heaven. That its grip was so tight that it has yet to be completely purged. Yet man is secure that he is wiser then those angels and that even if they could try and mislead him he would know. Is God just entertaining himself with this period in which he lets these things happen and then with a snap of his fingers or as a thought make everything the way you envision?

Does God not say there will be false prophets? Does not God say to know if a prophet is real see if what he says is true? Would that not suggest that there are times where one should not listen based on faith alone?

1) From the Scriptures, those Disobedient Angels were given time to expand from one dis-satisfied Angel(Lucifer) to 1/3 of the Angels. (GOD is Long suffering, Gracious, Merciful, Love, JUST.) They were casted out of heaven after a rebellious war.
2)No, mankind is still vulerable to deception---But the Scriptures which we are debating does give some pointers as expressed by Jesus to "overcoming".
3) NO! GOD is NOT hardly "entertained" by the wickedness of man's inhumanity to man. It cost HIS SON'S Life on the cross.
4) It is in GOD'S power to call an end to the saving of Persons when that last person to REPENT AND SUBMIT TO GOD'S WILL DOES SO.
5) Yes, there will be false prophets, teachers, and doctrines to expose and discard.
6) Absolutely, It is "faith" in such as you are suggesting and all of man's contrary surmisings that one has to "put away". The Faith has to be focused upon Jesus Christ and HIS Sacrifical Death upon the Cross for the Propitiation of mankind---as specified by the Scriptures.

 

[Pappillion001]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Pappi, whether or not you want to believe in the prophetic side of the Biblical Scriptures is your choice.
As Amos 3:7 declares, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."

Now there is an example of the problem as I see it. Want should not be part of the decision. When want is involved fact gets pushed out of the way.

Hi pappi, You didn't answer from the Scriptures themselves---but as Col.2:8 says, "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."

Jesus Christ told a group, "Ye do err not knowing the scriptures". Those Scriptures Start out By acknowledging the Creator GOD and ALL that HE MADE. GOD very well does know our every functioning cell and its actions and reactions. Initially all things were Created and declared upon final "finishing"/"Ceasing to Create"---"very Good."

Did you expect him to say I could have done better or I'll need to fix this later? Based on results it really wasn't all that good, but ok he made everything and it was good. Now what?

Mankind was a/the "free thinking Being" which caused non-harmonious conditions to occur.

Read the words without knowing what they mean. Because your creating a meaning that isn't there. What free thinking were Adam and Eve doing? Why did God give us the ability to think if he knew it would cause all these problems?

That action had/was given a "restoration" plan---even "before the foundation of the world".
It isn't GOD'S WILL that ANY PERSON "should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance". (2Pet.3:9)

Why is there a Hell? When was it created? Had Adam and Eve not eaten the fruit what would have happened?

In John 3:16 Jesus said, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

I actually get upset when anybody says this as it is the most absurd statement in the Bible. Would it be fair then to say he loved Jesus less? What was different about this world compared to the world he drowned? How is it possible to atone for sin by committing a sin? How can anyone who has read the Bible not recall any one of a dozen plus verses in which God prohibits this one way or another?

Isa.42:8-9, "I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. "

You make God come across as inept. If you really wanted someone to know something and it was important to you that they know would you write vague descriptions that may or may not be applicable with no reference as to when it might happen or something specific with a date or cross reference with a secondary event?

John 13:19, "Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he]."

Even accepting questionable interpretations concerning Jesus, most of what is thought to be prophecy is wrong. The fact that it isn't obvious despite God stating that it is supposed to be evidence is just wishful thinking. There would be no need for 100's of obscure verses from numerous prophets. Just 1 prophet who says On Passover when Herod is King The Roman Pilot will be given the Messiah after being arrested for Blasphemy and inciting the people. That much and there is never a conversation about prophecy, Jesus or the Bible

Did they?? That isn't the message given in multiple verses.Num.15:14,29, "And if a stranger sojourn with you, or whosoever [be] among you in your generations, and will offer an offering made by fire, of a sweet savour unto the LORD; as ye do, so he shall do.......Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, [both for] him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them. "

If a Gentile is in the Land he is expected to comply with the Law. It does not say go to the lands of the Gentiles and teach them. This is no different than any country in history. Being a foreigner is not an excuse to break laws and neither is ignorance. So No they weren't given anything.

In the sight of GOD who only made a pair of human beings(Adam and Eve) ALL humans are equal. GOD is "NOT a respecter of persons".

How can you honestly say that God did not choose the Jews as his people and to be their God? That he commanded them to eradicate even the livestock of people living in Canaan. Was circumcision just a joke? It really doesn't set the Jews apart from Gentiles marking them the chosen of God?

This is seen in Deut.10:17 and Acts 10:34.
It was the Jewish Nation who failed to teach the other Nations the laws of GOD, but took upon themselves the laws pertaining to the other "gods".

You are making it mean things that just are not there. Why can Jews own Gentile slaves but not Jewish slaves? God intended to separate the Jews from the world. They were his chosen people. Were you unaware of these verses?

Deut is full of verses such as

37Because he loved your ancestors and chose their descendants after them, he brought you out of Egypt by his Presence and his great strength, 38to drive out before you nations greater and stronger than you and to bring you into their land to give it to you for your inheritance, as it is today. 39Acknowledge and take to heart this day that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth below. There is no other. 40Keep his decrees and commands, which I am giving you today, so that it may go well with you and your children after you and that you may live long in the land the Lord your God gives you for all time.




2The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3It was not with our ancestorsa that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.



Deut 6 and below 7 seems rather clear


1When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girga****es, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you— 2and when the Lord your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally.a Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy. 3Do not intermarry with them. Do not give your daughters to their sons or take their daughters for your sons, 4for they will turn your children away from following me to serve other gods, and the Lord’s anger will burn against you and will quickly destroy you. 5This is what you are to do to them: Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones, cut down their Asherah polesb and burn their idols in the fire. 6For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
7The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. 8But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. 9Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

 

[Pappillion001]

Pappi, Since The Resurrection of Jesus and the "unto all the world with the whatosever I have told you, there hasn't been a "Nation of Believers", but "Believers in every Nation". Therefore, "Natural disasters" (Floods, famines, earthquakes, windstorms, etc.) effect the good and the bad. As does physical ailments.

The Papal States and then Vatican come to mind.

So prior to the resurruction bad things happened to people because their relationship with God was lacking. Which is what your response to a previous question boiled down to. As you move away from that anser I am curious what prompted it? I only ask because I think it absolutely true that whatever in the Bible is clear, concise and can overcome reasonable objections can be from God. That is what one would expect from the creator of the universe attempting to convey his wishes to his creation.

At the time of the OT Writings, the peoples of a certain Belief lived in groupings of those individuals.(kingdoms). However, from the Babylonian Captivity to the present day, The Jewish peoples have not had a "land" of their own----until the present "State of Israel".
As stated above, The Creator GOD'S people are seen as individual Believers in ALL Nations. Rom.2:27-29; 9:4-11; Gal.3:26-29.

Again, Rom.8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. "

How do we know that?

The principle is that whatever comes upon a true Believer in the end was done with GOD'S purpose at the start. (Job as an example--- as was Joseph)

Job is a wonderful example of how to portray God as a callous, self centered diety who lacks any understanding of human beings. That its blatant acts of cruelty and disregard are ignored or made into acts to be praised and admired is defies logic.

Pappi, the first time was to fulfill the Scriptural prophecies as Jesus was the "Image" which casted the Shadow/those animal sacrifices over the past centuries. Col.2:2-17
There were still prophecies to be fulfilled (not by Jesus Christ) and people to decide for a or against having Jesus as Lord of their lives.(per scriptures).

Would it not have been more efficient to just identify your self as God, proclaim why he is there and then proceed? This is related closely to #4 at the bottom

No! Mankind will not ever be able to thwart GOD'S PLANS.

Adam and Eve did

Man can only Choose between accepting or rejecting the offered pardon(with its conditions) for transgressions.

You may accept the theory of evolution as the reason for all you see, but I see a Loving, Compassionate,Creator GOD. I, also, see the mystery of the ages which Paul wrote concerning. See, Matt.13:17; Luke 8:10; Col. 2:2; 1Tim.3:16; Rev.10:7

Evolution has nothing to do with the question, nor did I bring it up. In Paul's time and you have just agreed Nature was seen as proof of God. Since then many of those pieces of evidence have been shown to have no supernatural or divine origin. How do you reconcile that the evidence is flawed and Paul's belief based on that evidence has lost at least some credibility. Some examples I gave were lightning, fire and Northern Lights)

Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

Which Paul used when presented with an objection that he was unable to provide a reasonable answer for. Because onlu some things are spiritually discerned that are spiritual and of those they often are not discerned the same. Obviously one must only think they know, but how do other know which and what was able to imitate that spiritual understanding?

Pappi, you made the choice to debate the Biblical Scriptures. NO one forced you to participate. And you certainly can decline to participate; and decline to acknowledge the Scriptures as truth; and decline to believe.

The Scriptures only relate the message in them. What one does with the messages contained in them----is a conclusion made by the individual. What in you caused any "force"?? The strawman you built is of your own makin

g.

You misunderstand. I am not saying I am forced to debate scripture. I am saying I am forced to submit to God's judgment and either go to Heaven or Hell.

Think of it like a will animal preserve. The fact that the cage is 1000 square miles or that the animals think they are free does not make it being in the wild. I have no choice other than what I am given which I have no input regarding its composition. Not deciding is equivalent to rejection.

Is forced not a reasonable term to express the situation?

1) From the Scriptures, those Disobedient Angels were given time to expand from one dis-satisfied Angel(Lucifer) to 1/3 of the Angels. (GOD is Long suffering, Gracious, Merciful, Love, JUST.) They were casted out of heaven after a rebellious war.

Do you think it served God;s purpose to give them continued access to us here? Funny how Satan shows up in Heaven to discuss Job seeing how he had already been cursed for his part in the Fall, but I guess his rebellion had not yet happened. Since sin can not endure in Heaven how did those Angels rebel?

2)No, mankind is still vulerable to deception---But the Scriptures which we are debating does give some pointers as expressed by Jesus to "overcoming".

We can only hope that the early church didn't lose anything important when they lost control of the integrity of the instructions and content passed to them. Or that later additions and omissions which they felt were permissible didn't include any of those tips. The last decade has seen pages worth of text removed or footnoted to reflect more recent discoveries. You are aware the Bible was compiled based on its ability to support accepted doctrine at the time as there was no one who could say if any of it was original.

3) NO! GOD is NOT hardly "entertained" by the wickedness of man's inhumanity to man. It cost HIS SON'S Life on the cross.

As harsh as this may sound at first Jesus was born for no other reason than the cross. He did not "lose" anything. If anything was lost it was the separation caused by Jesus' birth as a human. He did not die never yo be seen by God again which is what your term implies, but went back to God where he came from.

God and Jesus are not human subject to the same experiences and emotions as us. Jesus dying on the cross, taking away the redemption aspect is a much different event than the the thieves next to him. They lost out on living, they suffered with no idea when it would and what would follow. Their families would not see them again or know what happened to them once they died.

4) It is in GOD'S power to call an end to the saving of Persons when that last person to REPENT AND SUBMIT TO GOD'S WILL DOES SO.

This create an interesting set of questions.

There will no longer be any more people after Judgment?
Is judgement based on numbers? So many to win or only so many will fit?
What purpose is being served by waiting? It is in nobody's interest to do so. It portrays God as unorganized, indecisive and of questionable commitment. These are not qualities attributed to God, but possessed by man.

5) Yes, there will be false prophets, teachers, and doctrines to expose and discard.

And the serpent being far more devious

I suspect that it is already mostly done and is just being maintained.

6) Absolutely, It is "faith" in such as you are suggesting and all of man's contrary surmisings that one has to "put away". The Faith has to be focused upon Jesus Christ and HIS Sacrifical Death upon the Cross for the Propitiation of mankind---as specified by the Scriptures.

[/quote]Why do you suppose we have contracts? Why do those contracts often contain something as security? Even God demands something to prove his covenants. Because faith is not a trustworthy concept. You have faith that what Paul said and experienced was true, but what if Paul really met one of those fallen Angels and only thought it was Jesus? At least the Apostles were physically with Jesus so one can reasonably assume what they say is what Jesus said. Yet it is Paul's doctrine which in some cases voids commands given by God.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Pappi, Since The Resurrection of Jesus and the "unto all the world with the whatosever I have told you, there hasn't been a "Nation of Believers", but "Believers in every Nation". Therefore, "Natural disasters" (Floods, famines, earthquakes, windstorms, etc.) effect the good and the bad. As does physical ailments.

The Papal States and then Vatican come to mind.

Hi Pappi, GOD'S Believers were in the kingdom of Israel then it split into a northen and southern kingdom. Then Jesus stated your house is left to you desolate. The "followers of the Way" by 1Peter 1+2 were believers "scattered" all over.

Your above were prophesied by Dan.7:25 and seen in 2 Thess.2:3-4 to be in opposition to GOD'S Believers, but claiming to be "speaking for GOD".

So prior to the resurruction bad things happened to people because their relationship with God was lacking. Which is what your response to a previous question boiled down to. As you move away from that anser I am curious what prompted it? I only ask because I think it absolutely true that whatever in the Bible is clear, concise and can overcome reasonable objections can be from God. That is what one would expect from the creator of the universe attempting to convey his wishes to his creation.

At the time of the OT Writings, the peoples of a certain Belief(Judaism) lived in groupings of those individuals.(kingdoms). However, from the Babylonian Captivity to the present day, The Jewish peoples have not had a "land" of their own----until the present "State of Israel".That was a burning desire at the time of Jesus--- to "restore the kingdom of Israel".
As stated above, The Creator GOD'S people are seen as individual Believers in ALL Nations. Rom.2:27-29; 9:4-11; Gal.3:26-29.

Have you read concerning the back-sliddings of the Israelites and the prophets sent with warnings and telling of the various pushments that would come upon the people because of continued rebellion? God had rather send "Blessings" than "cursings". The people chose disobedience rather than repentance.
With the people believing in the same GOD, it was easy to send a chastizement to remind the people to Repent and return. But even so, the rain and the sun falls on all.(GOOD OR BAD)
Sicknesses, can be widespread or more confined.
In Ex.15:26 this is found, "And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, ]b]I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.[/b]'

Again, Rom.8:28, "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose. "

How do we know that?

Gen.50:20; Prov. 12:21; 2COR.4:17; 2TIM.1:9.

The principle is that whatever comes upon a true Believer in the end was done with GOD'S purpose at the start. (Job as an example--- as was Joseph)

Job is a wonderful example of how to portray God as a callous, self centered diety who lacks any understanding of human beings. That its blatant acts of cruelty and disregard are ignored or made into acts to be praised and admired is defies logic.

Would it not have been more efficient to just identify your self as God, proclaim why he is there and then proceed?

GOD did so in the Garden at Creation to Adam and Eve. In Love, mercy, compassion, Graciousness and Justice. GOD gave the guity pair "life' from a sacrificed animal who was the shadow of that promised "image" seen in the "seed of the woman".
(Cont.)

 

[Pappillion001]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Pappi, Since The Resurrection of Jesus and the "unto all the world with the whatosever I have told you, there hasn't been a "Nation of Believers", but "Believers in every Nation". Therefore, "Natural disasters" (Floods, famines, earthquakes, windstorms, etc.) effect the good and the bad. As does physical ailments.



Hi Pappi, GOD'S Believers were in the kingdom of Israel then it split into a northen and southern kingdom. Then Jesus stated your house is left to you desolate. The "followers of the Way" by 1Peter 1+2 were believers "scattered" all over.

Your above were prophesied by Dan.7:25 and seen in 2 Thess.2:3-4 to be in opposition to GOD'S Believers, but claiming to be "speaking for GOD".

Have you read concerning the back-sliddings of the Israelites and the prophets sent with warnings and telling of the various pushments that would come upon the people because of continued rebellion? God had rather send "Blessings" than "cursings". The people chose disobedience rather than repentance.
With the people believing in the same GOD, it was easy to send a chastizement to remind the people to Repent and return. But even so, the rain and the sun falls on all.(GOOD OR BAD)
Sicknesses, can be widespread or more confined.
In Ex.15:26 this is found, "And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, ]b]I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I [am] the LORD that healeth thee.[/b]'


Gen.50:20; Prov. 12:21; 2COR.4:17; 2TIM.1:9.

I feel this is about as close as I am going to get to a definitive yes or no.

GOD did so in the Garden at Creation to Adam and Eve. In Love, mercy, compassion, Graciousness and Justice. GOD gave the guity pair "life' from a sacrificed animal who was the shadow of that promised "image" seen in the "seed of the woman".
(Cont.)

I can't even understand how anyone can come away with that understanding unless that is the understanding they intended to come away with. It simply does not say that literally or figuratively.

example.

God made them naked and ignorant and in this state of ignorance they were not ashamed. The only thing that has changed is they now have knowledge of good and evil. That they were not cognizant that their nakedness was shameful does not mean it wasn't before. It can be reasoned that God created man in a shameful state or at least did nothing about their nakedness until it created a problem between them.


What is God waiting for? A shadow of the image promised in the seed of the woman. There is no promise being made. It is a curse being invoked. There is nothing to suggest salvation from Jesus by this. By having these preconceived ideas of what must be you make it impossible to really understand it.

Maybe somewhere it explains what God is waiting for. Could he not have forgiven them at that moment? It has been 6,000 years bible time, 2,000 years since Jesus.

 

[sincerly]

I can't even understand how anyone can come away with that understanding unless that is the understanding they intended to come away with. It simply does not say that literally or figuratively.

The Actions speak louder tha words whether or not you choose to "understand" the narrative.

example. God made them naked and ignorant and in this state of ignorance they were not ashamed. The only thing that has changed is they now have knowledge of good and evil. That they were not cognizant that their nakedness was shameful does not mean it wasn't before. It can be reasoned that God created man in a shameful state or at least did nothing about their nakedness until it created a problem between them.

Not quite, The pair was clothed in purity, innocence, righteousness("MADE VERY GOOD"---NO FLAWS, NO GUILT, AND IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR MAKER.)

Ignorant? not hardly. Adam gave names to all the animals which would be under his "dominion" and GOD gave Adam and Eve the custodian responsibility of the Garden. Theirs was the responsibilty to populate the world.

The pair had no reason to be "ashamed'---as above--- they were initially from their maker in satisfactory condition. The "shame" came into being with disobedience and the knowledge of a "failed hope and expection" of the potential they lost.

Your explanation is what is "flawed". The "nakedness" GOD created them with wasn't the problem. The problem came about with the "nakedness" which disobedience left them custodians---stripped of their Righteousness and Innocence before their Creator.

What is God waiting for? A shadow of the image promised in the seed of the woman. There is no promise being made. It is a curse being invoked. There is nothing to suggest salvation from Jesus by this. By having these preconceived ideas of what must be you make it impossible to really understand it.

Could it be GOD is waiting for your understanding of what HE HAS SAID in those Scriptures. (When one reads the Book, one makes a decision concerning it.)

There was a promise made by GOD of what that "SEED" would accomplish in the time frame of HIS "WILL".

And a "curse was involked". However, the narrative started in those few chapters has its ending in another book with a lot of clarifying information between.

Maybe somewhere it explains what God is waiting for. Could he not have forgiven them at that moment? It has been 6,000 years bible time, 2,000 years since Jesus.

See above. The compiliation of the "66 Books" does a good job of "explaining"and NO! GOD has not forgotten. The "Forgiveness" is discussed within those pages as well.

 

[John Martin]

Can you reconcile these three statements by Pul which seem to offer a contradiction?

"...The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17b KJV

"For not the hearers of the law arejust before God, but the doers of the law shall bejustified." Romans 2:13

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:38 KJV __________________
"I suppose if we couldn’t laugh at things that don’t make sense, we couldn’t react to a lot of life."
-Hobbes



Dear Sandy,
I think we need to understand the statements of Paul from his anthropology. He sees human evolution in three levels:first the state of innocence where people live without law and morality. The second stage is the stage of the Law where morality comes in people feel that there are in right relationship with God by following the Law. If a person sincerely tries to follow the Law that person will discover that no one can fully follow the Law and the Law shows that the human beings are imperfect. This experience opens one to surrender to God and discover the image and likeness of God within us. Faith is the transition from the external Law to the discovery of our image and likeness of God. Our image and likeness of God is already saved. Here we discover that our salvation is a pure grace of God and not the result of following the Law. In the discovery of our image and likeness we discover who we are and what our real nature is. It is discovering the Law written in our hearts. It is the experience of the New Covenant. In this New Covenant there is no need to be told by others what to do and what not to do but we follow the commandments naturally and spontaneously.
The just live by Faith, the just go beyond the external Law by discovering our image and likeness of God by faith.
Those who have discovered their image and likeness of God follow the commandments as a natural way.
By discovering our image and likeness of God we discover that our justification is through faith that brings us to our image and likeness of God and not following the deeds of the Law.

I hope this helps

 

[Pappillion001]

The Actions speak louder tha words whether or not you choose to "understand" the narrative.

Yes they do and the actions of all involved are very clear.

Not quite, The pair was clothed in purity, innocence, righteousness("MADE VERY GOOD"---NO FLAWS, NO GUILT, AND IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR MAKER.)

OK so the exact words are

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Not made very good, not no flaws, no guilt and in a right relationship with their maker.

Those are your words that you take from the actual term used "very good" and he was not talking about Adam and Eve specifically. And God saw everything he had made from day 1 to that final day 6 and that is what he says is very good. That would include Adam and Eve, but is not specifically directed at them which makes your additional language make no sense at all.

Ignorant? not hardly. Adam gave names to all the animals which would be under his "dominion" and GOD gave Adam and Eve the custodian responsibility of the Garden. Theirs was the responsibilty to populate the world.

You say innocent because it sounds better or they were naive. You get offended at the use of the word ignorant. Ignorant does not mean stupid or incapable. Ir means there were things they did not know. He names the animals, mind you he doesn't guess at what their bane already are he simply says the first word that comes to mind. I am not impressed that this is a significant feat of intelligence. Add to that all the animals are to be subject to man. Meaning what? That they have less mental capacity then we do or that our body's allow us to do things no animal will ever do. It would be very strange if we were to read that none of Gods creatures were to be killed and they are to be free to live in harmony with man

The pair had no reason to be "ashamed'---as above--- they were initially from their maker in satisfactory condition. The "shame" came into being with disobedience and the knowledge of a "failed hope and expection" of the potential they lost.

Here are the exact words

And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.


And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

So again we see you have taken two simple sentnece and created this story of what happened and what it means, but that is coming from you. It is right there and nothing of what you say is anywhere to be found in Genesis. And just so we are clear the word translated as naked is used 47 times in the Bible it means naked and that is it, just naked. No symbolic use, no multiple meanings, just naked.

Your explanation is what is "flawed". The "nakedness" GOD created them with wasn't the problem. The problem came about with the "nakedness" which disobedience left them custodians---stripped of their Righteousness and Innocence before their Creator.

So far I haven't offered an explanation I have just pointed out how you have created something and said the bible supports it, but upon looking nothing of what you have said is there. You have a preconceived idea of what should happen and why and you make the text have meaning to fit. Even after this I would bet you will still insist that what you say it says is correct despite not one word of it being there.

They were not stripped of anything. Comprehension slammed into them. What were the first words from Gods lips when the man said why he hid? Who told you you were naked? Meaning how is it that you know what I did not want you to know? Why would God ask that if they had been stripped of their righteousness or your first attempt to explain being disobedience and lost hope. Its like saying God asked them who told you you were disobedient? It wouldn't make any sense.

Could it be GOD is waiting for your understanding of what HE HAS SAID in those Scriptures. (When one reads the Book, one makes a decision concerning it.)

No because I could say the same thing to the billions of people who have lived and died waiting for God to deliver them from the horror of this world. Or I could say maybe he is waiting for you to stop changing his words so other will have a chance to decide based on what is written.

Yes one does make a decision, but it should be made after you read it. One must decide to accept the truth even though it may not look or feel like we want. If the Bible is the inspired word of God given so that people will understand his will. What would be the point in making it so complicated nobody could understand it? Or make it possible that only those with the spirit are able to when you want everyone to? That is not the thought process of a God who can create the Universe.

There was a promise made by GOD of what that "SEED" would accomplish in the time frame of HIS "WILL".

Again exactly what is said

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes that the woman and her descendants will forever be hostile towards the serpent and his descendants.

That is it. That is the only promise that was made and is part of Eve and the serpents punishment

If you want to tear it apart looking for hidden meaning ask yourself this.

Why would the serpent initiate this chain of events?
Why does Eve and the serpent share a punishment where there is enmity between them?
Why does the serpent condemned to eat dust?
Why was Eve's punishment to include painful labor, desire for her husband and submitting to him?
Why is Adam cursed to return to the dust he came from and which the serpent will consume?

And a "curse was involked". However, the narrative started in those few chapters has its ending in another book with a lot of clarifying information between.

Why would God do that? It is so counter productive to what he supposedly wants that to even consider it as plausible is mind boggling. The entire OT flows from one story to the next. It is a History, it does not jump around. Also and maybe more important this is not Biblically supported. As a matter of fact it says the almost the opposite.


And it shall be with him, and he shall read 7121 therein all the days 3117 of his life 2416: that he may learn 3925 to fear 3372 the LORD 3068 his God 430, to keep 8104 all the words 1697 of this law 8451 and these statutes 2706, to do 6213 them: Deu 17:19

And thou shalt write 3789 upon the stones 68 all the words 1697 of this law 8451 very 3190 plainly 874.Deu 27:8

See above. The compiliation of the "66 Books" does a good job of "explaining"and NO! GOD has not forgotten. The "Forgiveness" is discussed within those pages as well.

How could it with all the extra meanings that have been added? There can be little doubt that at least concerning what was discussed that what you had said is not there. It is made up to support the story you want. Tour defense renders God an unorganized deity who seems like he is figuring things out through trial and error with no idea what the results will be. That doesn't sound like the God who created the universe to me.

I doubt that this will have any effect other than to offend you, which despite appearances is not my goal. I just strongly believe that wasting time being stuck on interpretations that are baseless only causes problems.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Actions speak louder than words whether or not you choose to "understand" the narrative.

Yes they do and the actions of all involved are very clear.

Hi Pappi, Thank you! That includes yours as well.

Originally Posted by Pappillion001
example. God made them naked and ignorant and in this state of ignorance they were not ashamed. The only thing that has changed is they now have knowledge of good and evil. That they were not cognizant that their nakedness was shameful does not mean it wasn't before. It can be reasoned that God created man in a shameful state or at least did nothing about their nakedness until it created a problem between them.

Not quite, The pair was clothed in purity, innocence, righteousness("MADE VERY GOOD"---NO FLAWS, NO GUILT, AND IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR MAKER.)

OK so the exact words are

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day." Gen.1:31

Not made very good, not no flaws, no guilt and in a right relationship with their maker.

Those are your words that you take from the actual term used "very good" and he was not talking about Adam and Eve specifically. And God saw everything he had made from day 1 to that final day 6 and that is what he says is very good. That would include Adam and Eve, but is not specifically directed at them which makes your additional language make no sense at all.

Yes, those were my words and my words were directed at "The pair"/(Adam and Eve). Yes, GOD had included "all things made" and you admit "would include Adam and Eve, therefore, your whole post is a non-sequitur.

You say innocent because it sounds better or they were naive. You get offended at the use of the word ignorant. Ignorant does not mean stupid or incapable. Ir means there were things they did not know. He names the animals, mind you he doesn't guess at what their bane already are he simply says the first word that comes to mind. I am not impressed that this is a significant feat of intelligence. Add to that all the animals are to be subject to man. Meaning what? That they have less mental capacity then we do or that our body's allow us to do things no animal will ever do. It would be very strange if we were to read that none of Gods creatures were to be killed and they are to be free to live in harmony with man

No! I said innocence because the pair came from the Creator's hands without quilt. GOD was satisfied with their make-up by pronouncing them(and all else)--"very good"(no flaws)---and that would include the "relationship"(GOD gave them dominion of HIS Creation.)
And consider it "strange", because after Creating "all things", on the sixth day GOD said, "Gen.1:29, "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."(food)
Flesh "foods" wasn't given to eat until after the flood.

The pair had no reason to be "ashamed'---as above--- they were initially from their maker in satisfactory condition. The "shame" came into being with disobedience and the knowledge of a "failed hope and expection" of the potential they lost.

Here are the exact words

"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed." Gen.2:25
"And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." Gen.3:7

So again we see you have taken two simple sentnece and created this story of what happened and what it means, but that is coming from you. It is right there and nothing of what you say is anywhere to be found in Genesis. And just so we are clear the word translated as naked is used 47 times in the Bible it means naked and that is it, just naked. No symbolic use, no multiple meanings, just naked.

Yes, in the KJV the English word "naked" does appear 47 times in the OT and NT, however, in the Genesis account(2:25) the Hebrew is "arowm" found 16 times.(without clothes) and in Gen.3:7 it is "eyrom" found 10 times.(signifying in want; lacking necessity; helpless). Therefore, in 3:7, after their disobedience, their condition changed---"ye shall surely die". They were powerless to avert that sentence. They were "cognizant" that they were to lose all that GOD had bestowed upon them---and that was cause for "shame". The fact that they were not "ashamed" of being without clothes previously to disobedience wouldn't be a factor following disobedience. However, now seeing the "helpess condition"(naked) they found themselves would be a reason for such.

Again exactly what is said

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes that the woman and her descendants will forever be hostile towards the serpent and his descendants.

That is it. That is the only promise that was made and is part of Eve and the serpents punishment

The other part of that was in the "crushing of the head"---death of the "serpent".

And a "curse was involked". However, the narrative started in those few chapters has its ending in another book with a lot of clarifying information between.

Why would God do that? It is so counter productive to what he supposedly wants that to even consider it as plausible is mind boggling. The entire OT flows from one story to the next. It is a History, it does not jump around. Also and maybe more important this is not Biblically supported. As a matter of fact it says the almost the opposite.

Unless one understands all that has happened in those other "in-between-books", one cannot really see/understand what GOD "supposedly wants".

How could it with all the extra meanings that have been added? There can be little doubt that at least concerning what was discussed that what you had said is not there. It is made up to support the story you want. Tour defense renders God an unorganized deity who seems like he is figuring things out through trial and error with no idea what the results will be. That doesn't sound like the God who created the universe to me.

I doubt that this will have any effect other than to offend you, which despite appearances is not my goal. I just strongly believe that wasting time being stuck on interpretations that are baseless only causes problems.

Pappi, The Creator GOD of the Universe spoke to 39 of those OT Prophets who make up the Scriptures of the Bible. ----they make up the bulk of the writings and for the most part the context centered upon the Disobedience of the peoples GOD choose out of the Nations to represent HIM in teaching the other Nations HIS Truths of a correct overall Relationship.
Paul was a zealot for GOD in contradistinction to the history left by the Israelites--by those Prophets.

 

[Pappillion001]

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Actions speak louder than words whether or not you choose to "understand" the narrative.

I didn't write it and can only understand it in a way that makes sense. It has to all flow together otherwise how can you think it came from God?

Hi Pappi, Thank you! That includes yours as well.

Originally Posted by Pappillion001
example. God made them naked and ignorant and in this state of ignorance they were not ashamed. The only thing that has changed is they now have knowledge of good and evil. That they were not cognizant that their nakedness was shameful does not mean it wasn't before. It can be reasoned that God created man in a shameful state or at least did nothing about their nakedness until it created a problem between them.

Not quite, The pair was clothed in purity, innocence, righteousness("MADE VERY GOOD"---NO FLAWS, NO GUILT, AND IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR MAKER.)

Yes, those were my words and my words were directed at "The pair"/(Adam and Eve). Yes, GOD had included "all things made" and you admit "would include Adam and Eve, therefore, your whole post is a non-sequitur.

This is an important point you are trying to avoid. Very good does not mean a single word of what you said. Nobody even understands it mean something is perfect. On a test a B is very good and an A does not mean a perfect score. You are acknowledging that you add meaning to what is written, but refuse to see how that changes the meaning. How different is the story when you remove the 3 concepts you stated above, but are not actually in the story?

No! I said innocence because the pair came from the Creator's hands without quilt.

Why would they be created with guilt? Why would it even be a consideration if they were or not? They story is not about guilt.

GOD was satisfied with their make-up by pronouncing them(and all else)--"very good"(no flaws)---and that would include the "relationship"(GOD gave them dominion of HIS Creation.)

To say something you have made is very good is that it has turned out as expected. It may or may not be perfect. Typically if one wanted to express the idea that something was better or above expectation or contained 0 flaws they use the word perfect, not good and not very good.

He also told them to subdue it. As for the relationship, there is nothing describing what it was supposed to look like. Man was to take care of the garden and that is it. The next time we here from God he is cursing everybody. There was no relationship beyond I made you for a purpose, go do your purpose.

And consider it "strange", because after Creating "all things", on the sixth day GOD said, "Gen.1:29, "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."(food)
Flesh "foods" wasn't given to eat until after the flood.

Yes God showed us how to kill living things.

Yes, in the KJV the English word "naked" does appear 47 times in the OT and NT, however, in the Genesis account(2:25) the Hebrew is "arowm" found 16 times.(without clothes) and in Gen.3:7 it is "eyrom" found 10 times.(signifying in want; lacking necessity; helpless). Therefore, in 3:7, after their disobedience, their condition changed---"ye shall surely die". They were powerless to avert that sentence. They were "cognizant" that they were to lose all that GOD had bestowed upon them---and that was cause for "shame". The fact that they were not "ashamed" of being without clothes previously to disobedience wouldn't be a factor following disobedience. However, now seeing the "helpess condition"(naked) they found themselves would be a reason for such.

First when you threaten someone with death as a result of their doing something you don't mean of old age. You mean right then and there. Step in front of a bus and you will surly die means at that moment otherwise there is no warning. If they will die in 40, 50, 60+ years there is no danger in stepping in front of a bus. God did not say I will kill you, so the reasonable conclusion is that the fruit would cause them to die then and there. It did not and as later from Gods lips we learn that man is banished from the Garden NOT for disobedience, but to prevent him from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever now that he has knowledge of good and evil.

Not exactly. When you look at Strong's if a word has a few different meanings then it will list the meaning and then give which verse with the the word is used in that sense. In this case the first entry is simply naked and applies to the verses in in Genesis. The helpless is meant the other 7 times in other verses. So it is still referring to physically naked. Now yes this is a different word suggesting something about it is different. Your position is that it is symbolic of their guilt and knowledge of what they would lose and having no means of preventing it. That doesn't fit though with the way the story infolds. It just says they made clothes for themselves and then heard God and hid. When they told God they hid not because they had disobeyed that doesn't even seem to have registered with them. God's first statement was Who told you that you were naked? That is a statement that says he knew they were, but did not tell them and they were not supposed to know. The other verses that use the word give a sense that the what was helpless was the condition of being naked, which we see was in fact true. They were made naked and God did nothing to alter that.

The other part of that was in the "crushing of the head"---death of the "serpent"

You are repeating what I put. Nothing was left out. Why do you suppose God would not dimply kill the serpent? Why let him not only live but reproduce and insure that man would always have an enemy? That is hardly the act of a loving compassionate God who wants only us to prosper. So what if 2, 4 or 6 thousand years later he is vanquished. In that period of time how many millions probably billions will have paid for that.

Unless one understands all that has happened in those other "in-between-books", one cannot really see/understand what GOD "supposedly wants".

This of course makes sense to you. Have you considered what that means. If this were true God provided the instructions or imparted his will piecemeal, spread out over thousands of years. Additionally he made impossible to properly understand until it was all given and then one had to have received the Holy spirit. Keep in mind that man was punished the entire time for failing to properly conform to God's will. Again does that sound like the God you have been describing? So something is not correct and it isn't my understanding. I am not adding anything to the text.

Pappi, The Creator GOD of the Universe spoke to 39 of those OT Prophets who make up the Scriptures of the Bible. ----they make up the bulk of the writings and for the most part the context centered upon the Disobedience of the peoples GOD choose out of the Nations to represent HIM in teaching the other Nations HIS Truths of a correct overall Relationship.
Paul was a zealot for GOD in contradistinction to the history left by the Israelites--by those Prophets.

Can you show me where in the OT God commands the Jews to go forth and teach the World or instruct them to teach Gentiles to have a relationship with God. Before you take the verses I know you will teaching Gentiles who happen to be in Israel what the rules are while in Israel is not the same.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by sincerly
The Actions speak louder than words whether or not you choose to "understand" the narrative.

I didn't write it and can only understand it in a way that makes sense. It has to all flow together otherwise how can you think it came from God?

Neither did I write the Bible and the true narrative that is presented in it---but it is easily to understand and does make sense from page one to the last page. And I have no doubt that it truly came from the Creator GOD who Made all things as told in those pages.

Not quite, The pair was clothed in purity, innocence, righteousness("MADE VERY GOOD"---NO FLAWS, NO GUILT, AND IN A RIGHT RELATIONSHIP TO THEIR MAKER.)

Yes, those were my words and my words were directed at "The pair"/(Adam and Eve). Yes, GOD had included "all things made" and you admit "would include Adam and Eve, therefore, your whole post is a non-sequitur.

This is an important point you are trying to avoid. Very good does not mean a single word of what you said. Nobody even understands it mean something is perfect. On a test a B is very good and an A does not mean a perfect score. You are acknowledging that you add meaning to what is written, but refuse to see how that changes the meaning. How different is the story when you remove the 3 concepts you stated above, but are not actually in the story?[/quote]

One isn't placing Adam and Eve up against the standard of perfection ---GOD, but the Creator did say Mankind and all else was made "Very Good".
In the "rest of the Scriptures" one sees the answers which aren't present readily in the "Beginning".
Before their disobedience, they were created "very Good". Their "physical condition" didn't cause their disobedience that was a choice of the intellect. Nor were they intellectually compromised--as you suggested. The context showed that Eve reasoned from what the Serpent had said to her conclusion to take and eat.
Nor was GOD at fault for their choices---"all the cards were on the table"---Their choices were simply wrong. They chose to die with their actions and GOD Actions and instructions gave a foundation for the rest of their lives(and that of mankinds)---in 3:15-to the end of the chapter.

Why would they be created with guilt? Why would it even be a consideration if they were or not? They story is not about guilt.

It was the Disobedience which caused the guilt as I said in saying they were created "innocent, with out guilt snd flaws." They had no fear of meeting/being in the presense of GOD prior to that disobedience.

To say something you have made is very good is that it has turned out as expected. It may or may not be perfect. Typically if one wanted to express the idea that something was better or above expectation or contained 0 flaws they use the word perfect, not good and not very good.

He also told them to subdue it. As for the relationship, there is nothing describing what it was supposed to look like. Man was to take care of the garden and that is it. The next time we here from God he is cursing everybody. There was no relationship beyond I made you for a purpose, go do your purpose.

The fact that the tree of life was there was evidence that GOD intended mankind to live and not die. Isa.66:22 verifies the fact that GOD intends to create a new heaven and earth. Futher evidence that the Relationship is ongoing.

And consider it "strange", because after Creating "all things", on the sixth day GOD said, "Gen.1:29, "And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."(food)
Flesh "foods" wasn't given to eat until after the flood.

Yes God showed us how to kill living things.

Yes, but it wasn't for dietary reasons--3:21--was because of sins. And that explained more fully in Lev.17:11, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. "(and Cain and Abel)
(cont.)

 

[Pappillion001]

Originally Posted by sincerly

The Actions speak louder than words whether or not you choose to "understand" the narrative.

Does it not seem odd that it could be understood anyway but the way God intended?

Neither did I write the Bible and the true narrative that is presented in it---but it is easily to understand and does make sense from page one to the last page. And I have no doubt that it truly came from the Creator GOD who Made all things as told in those pages.

What was gained by writing it this way. Spread out over thousands of years, written in a way that was intentionally unclear with hidden meanings and requiring that one act contrary to what was previously revealed.

This is an important point you are trying to avoid. Very good does not mean a single word of what you said. Nobody even understands it mean something is perfect. On a test a B is very good and an A does not mean a perfect score. You are acknowledging that you add meaning to what is written, but refuse to see how that changes the meaning. How different is the story when you remove the 3 concepts you stated above, but are not actually in the story?

One isn't placing Adam and Eve up against the standard of perfection ---GOD, but the Creator did say Mankind and all else was made "Very Good". [/QUOTE]

That was what you were doing. You went from very good to perfect. Making them flawless.

In the "rest of the Scriptures" one sees the answers which aren't present readily in the "Beginning".

Why? You still have not offered anything why God would be so confusing.

Before their disobedience, they were created "very Good". Their "physical condition" didn't cause their disobedience that was a choice of the intellect.

It is the desires of the flesh that are the cause of sin. The spirit is of God and returns to God. Eve saw that the fruit was good (How did she knew of good and evil yet), pleasing to the eye and she wanted to be like God. This is the crime of man. To strive to be more than the tool God intended.

Nor were they intellectually compromised--as you suggested. The context showed that Eve reasoned from what the Serpent had said to her conclusion to take and eat.
Nor was GOD at fault for their choices---"all the cards were on the table"---Their choices were simply wrong. They chose to die with their actions and GOD Actions and instructions gave a foundation for the rest of their lives(and that of mankinds)---in 3:15-to the end of the chapter.

We are told what we were created for. To tend the Garden. That is what is stated, there is nothing about fellowship with God. That is something that is made up because it sounds nice.

We were made so that we would perish. We were not made to live forever. Sin does not cause death. God withheld the Tree of Life from man and that is why we do not live forever. The idea of eternal life to come after we die is absurd. I asked this before what is the point of this life? This life is how man began, he was never promised anything else. Do you think had Adam never sinned that he would have died and then gone to live forever in Heaven?

It was the Disobedience which caused the guilt as I said in saying they were created "innocent, with out guilt snd flaws." They had no fear of meeting/being in the presense of GOD prior to that disobedience.

Of course they had flaws. If they did not they would not have sinned, but sin was already present. What was the serpent about? Why did God wish to keep man in the ignorance of his creation? We were ejected from the garden lest we take from the Tree of Life. The God of peace and loving put us forever at war with the serpent. Why what the serpent said is true, God confirms it.

The fact that the tree of life was there was evidence that GOD intended mankind to live and not die. Isa.66:22 verifies the fact that GOD intends to create a new heaven and earth. Futher evidence that the Relationship is ongoing.

If God wanted man to live forever he would have made him that way. Man was made to die. God then decided that may or may not be a good idea. So after man is made he puts the Tree of Life in the Garden.

Think about it logically, the traditional version just doesn't fit. It sounds nice, but the evidence does not support it.

Yes, but it wasn't for dietary reasons--3:21--was because of sins. And that explained more fully in Lev.17:11, "For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. "(and Cain and Abel)
(cont.)

How silly. God has all these formal ceremonies in order for man to atone for sins he has committed, assumed will commit and for those he did, but didn't realize he did. Do you need blood to forgive someone? Do you not see how the same sin or worse is forgiven with a sacrifice, but God requires more blood. Why would he need an animal to be killed in order to forgive something?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Can you reconcile these three statements by Pul which seem to offer a contradiction?

"...The just shall live by faith." Romans 1:17b KJV

"For not the hearers of the law arejust before God, but the doers of the law shall bejustified." Romans 2:13

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:38 KJV __________________
"I suppose if we couldn’t laugh at things that don’t make sense, we couldn’t react to a lot of life."
-Hobbes



Dear Sandy,
I think we need to understand the statements of Paul from his anthropology. He sees human evolution in three levels:first the state of innocence where people live without law and morality. The second stage is the stage of the Law where morality comes in people feel that there are in right relationship with God by following the Law. If a person sincerely tries to follow the Law that person will discover that no one can fully follow the Law and the Law shows that the human beings are imperfect. This experience opens one to surrender to God and discover the image and likeness of God within us. Faith is the transition from the external Law to the discovery of our image and likeness of God. Our image and likeness of God is already saved. Here we discover that our salvation is a pure grace of God and not the result of following the Law. In the discovery of our image and likeness we discover who we are and what our real nature is. It is discovering the Law written in our hearts. It is the experience of the New Covenant. In this New Covenant there is no need to be told by others what to do and what not to do but we follow the commandments naturally and spontaneously.
The just live by Faith, the just go beyond the external Law by discovering our image and likeness of God by faith.
Those who have discovered their image and likeness of God follow the commandments as a natural way.
By discovering our image and likeness of God we discover that our justification is through faith that brings us to our image and likeness of God and not following the deeds of the Law.

I hope this helps

Gobbledygook.