Reality is subjective / comes from the mind? Really?

[Surya Deva]

Ah, more contradictions from the logic master. You already told me that there are not different levels and such, but now you are claiming there are different planes, such as the mental plane and subtle dimension. Can you please stop contradicting yourself? I find it very unsettling.

These are not contradictions my friend. It is like saying to a Buddhist who believes there is no Self, when he says "I went to the park today", "Oh look you contradicted yourself that there is no 'I'" The Buddhist would just look at you bemused and tell you that the 'I' construction they use is only pragmatic, a useful fiction they use but do not really believe it exists. Similarly, as an Advaitin monistic idealist myself, I consider the entire universe to be a holographic projection of consciousness and thus consider everything an illusion, but I have to use certain constructions like I, time, space, genus, species, class etc for pragmatic purposes because they are useful fictions.

Does this clarify my position for you now?

The China thing, are you saying that if I wanted to telepathically talk to someone in China I could go through other minds to transfer the message? Good thing you are rooted in scientific fact...

There is both testimonial evidence, logical evidence and scientific evidence for telepathy. I have personally experienced telepathy and another member strawman has said that he has experienced telepathic contact within dreams and you will find many otherwise rational people claim they have experienced it - are we all lying? Are scientists who find evidence for telepathy such as the famous Ganzfield field experiments and the vast body of scientific literature over the past century all hoaxers?

You need to update your knowledge on our current paradigm of science quantum physics which has long since falsified the classical view of an objective universe. In Bohm's theory for example of neutral monism the entire universe is a single causal system where the observer and the observed are inseparable from one another. Indeed, all experiments done in quantum physics so far have shown that consciousness is indeed inseparable from the universe.

Theoretically this is all fine and dandy, but nobody is going to be able to break down to quantum levels and teleport themselves. That is not at all possible, as we exist at the atomic level, not the quantum level. Once again, I need you to decide if the quantum level is different or decide if there is no difference between these non-existent levels, I need you to stop contradicting yourself.

Again, there is no such thing as 'levels' in reality. It is impossible that fundamentally there is no matter, space, time or laws and then at the atomic level all of a sudden there is matter, space, time. This is explained today in quantum physics as the holographic principle(predicated on Bohm's theories) which basically shows our world matter, space and time is an illusion. Henceforth even at our so-called atomic or maco level of reality the laws of the fundamental quantum still apply. Now quantum physics is applied to maco objects too and many natural processes that take place such as photosynthesis are considered to be quantum processes.

If a micro object like a particle can teleport, then there is no reason why a macro object cannot teleport. What I am illustrating is that the explanation given by Yoga for how teleportation happens is virtually identical to quantum tunneling. The fact that Yoga sutras are describing these powers and describing the mechanism by which they work in consonance with how we know they can work in quantum physics is obviously no coincidence. On the preponderance of all the evidence testimonial, logical and scientific the existence of these powers is a reasonable conclusion to draw.

I am not sure this qualifies as support for no objective reality. Despite that this yogi obviously had to take in water, control over the Self does not mean there is not objective reality, and and defying of physics, even at the quantum level, would require that aspect of reality to objectively exist. If it cannot be done by the mind alone it cannot be completely subjective.

Yes, this is not in fact proof for the lack of objective reality. I believe idvav is showing an example of the powers of the mind over matter. The mind has primacy over matter and can control matter. Indeed, this is true for we control the matter is our own body using our mind. I will to move my limbs and my will sets into motion electrical and biomechanical processes in the body and it moves.

 

[Koldo]

You should read a book called, "Noetic Sciences" by Dean Radin, who is a highly educated scientist and physicist and has worked for many prestigious scientific institutes, he shows in his book the body of research done into psychic/psi over the last 100 years.

Have you ever heard about the 1 million dollars challenge to anyone able to prove he/she has a paranormal ability?

 

[Surya Deva]

Have you ever heard about the 1 million dollars challenge to anyone able to prove he/she has a paranormal ability?

Yes, it is a fundamentally flawed challenge. I have read a lot of criticism about this challenge from many scientists who point out basically the challenge is designed for failure. In fact, most claimants who take the challenge never get past the preliminary stages, because it it premised on the fact that one of the organizations members of the Randi foundation has to agree it was paranormal, and of course as they consider paranormal nonsense, they never agree

Basically the challenge is basically nothing but a publicity stunt by the now departed James Randi. It is no substitute for proper controlled scientific experiments done by scientists. Again, one should peruse the scientific literature into psychic research over the past 100 years and they will clearly see we have a body of strong positive evidence.

 

[1137]

There is both testimonial evidence, logical evidence and scientific evidence for telepathy. I have personally experienced telepathy and another member strawman has said that he has experienced telepathic contact within dreams and you will find many otherwise rational people claim they have experienced it - are we all lying? Are scientists who find evidence for telepathy such as the famous Ganzfield field experiments and the vast body of scientific literature over the past century all hoaxers?

Personal testimony is irrelevant. Much like having a mystical experience is irrelevant because it is causr by brain activity and is therefore perceived as real. How come you arr incapable of providing an onslaught of sources that telepathy is possible if it is so widely accepted? There have been experiments that disprove it, it isn't that hard. Expetiencing does not make it true. In your "reasoning", if I take LSD and trip that I was a attacked by a troll, it means trolls do in fact exist and I was in fact attacked by one.

You need to update your knowledge on our current paradigm of science quantum physics which has long since falsified the classical view of an objective universe. In Bohm's theory for example of neutral monism the entire universe is a single causal system where the observer and the observed are inseparable from one another. Indeed, all experiments done in quantum physics so far have shown that consciousness is indeed inseparable from the universe.

Yeah, I totally believe quantum physics accepts there is no objective reality, therefore making their own discoveries not objectively true.

Neutral monism does not contradict objective reality, it simply says that all, is one at the fundamental level. Again, you do not think levels are accepted, so please provide the sources of scientists saying that there is no difference between the atomic and the quantum, that atoms do not exist, etc. (Don't worry, I know you can't and won't).

Again, there is no such thing as 'levels' in reality. It is impossible that fundamentally there is no matter, space, time or laws and then at the atomic level all of a sudde den there is matter, space, time. This is explained today in quantum physics as the holographic principle(predicated on Bohm's theories) which basically shows our world matter, space and time is an illusion. Henceforth even at our so-called atomic or maco level of reality the laws of the fundamental quantum still apply. Now quantum physics is applied to maco objects too and many natural processes that take place such as photosynthesis are considered to be quantum processes.

This does not show that the atomic level does not exist, it says it is not the most basic. If I build a structure out of legos, both the structure and the legos exist, the structure is made of legos, the legos are more basic. The atomic level exists, it is created by the sub-atomic / quantum level, which is created by whateve is fundamental.

If a micro object like a particle can teleport, then there is no reason why a macro object cannot teleport. What I am illustrating is that the explanation given by Yoga for how teleportation happens is virtually identical to quantum tunneling. The fact that Yoga sutras are deslcribing these powers and describing the mechanism by which they work in consonance with how we know they can work in quantum physics is obviously no coincidence. On the preponderance of all the evidence testimonial, logical and scientific the existence of these powers is a reasonable conclusion to draw.

Oh I have nothing against teleportation. But the idea that you can simply choose to teleport is laughable. In objective reality we can create devices that can help us defy objective reality. Going to the moon "defied" gravity, but it doesn't damage the OP. Unless you can just choose to defy gravity objective reality exists.

 

[MetalEverywhere]

I agree that nobody should believe #1 by default. However, if we can show that the ability being demonstrated is possible then there is no reason to disbelieve it.

Yes, but until then the default position is disbelief, yo.

Indeed, we know from quantum physics that there is no separability and thus it shows if the mind is capable of even controlling a single part, it can control every other part too.

You're sounding pseudosciencey. It's cool to think about things like this, but in the end we are demonstrably limited to only move things with our muscles, and nothing else.

- Metal

 

[Storm]

Just a reminder, Doors: it's your turn.

 

[1137]

Just a reminder, Doors: it's your turn.

Haha I totally forgot! I'll make my move after my next class.

 

[Koldo]

Yes, it is a fundamentally flawed challenge. I have read a lot of criticism about this challenge from many scientists who point out basically the challenge is designed for failure.

Why?

In fact, most claimants who take the challenge never get past the preliminary stages, because it it premised on the fact that one of the organizations members of the Randi foundation has to agree it was paranormal, and of course as they consider paranormal nonsense, they never agree

Actually, if you are accepted to take part on the preliminary test, it means the foundation agrees that the power you claim to have is paranormal.

Basically the challenge is basically nothing but a publicity stunt by the now departed James Randi. It is no substitute for proper controlled scientific experiments done by scientists. Again, one should peruse the scientific literature into psychic research over the past 100 years and they will clearly see we have a body of strong positive evidence.

Why don't you consider it to be a proper controlled scientific experiment?
What strong positive evidence?

 

[Storm]

Haha I totally forgot! I'll make my move after my next class.

Sure you will.

Love ya.

 

[1137]

Eh, this class is boring.

The notion that our subjective realities actually contribute to the unknowable objective one. I'm getting tired and can't really go into detail without it coming out gibberish, so I'll let JMS say it for me: "Our thoughts form the universe - they always matter."

I don't think it holds much merit. I can affect my personal reality, like convincing myself this class is interesting haha. However, these are subjective opinions in the first place. I cannot change the laws of physics through thought, they are objective.

 

[ChristineES]

The way I see it: Reality is always reality. It is our perceptions of it that are subjective.

 

[Storm]

Eh, this class is boring.



I don't think it holds much merit. I can affect my personal reality, like convincing myself this class is interesting haha. However, these are subjective opinions in the first place. I cannot change the laws of physics through thought, they are objective.

Conclusions are all well and good, but you should really show your work.

In all fairness, though, I'm having trouble figuring out how to explain the idea... why don't you tell me what you think I mean for a starting point?

 

[idav]

The way I see it: Reality is always reality. It is our perceptions of it that are subjective.

I agree with this....now if we could just explain that to gravity.

 

[1137]

Conclusions are all well and good, but you should really show your work.

In all fairness, though, I'm having trouble figuring out how to explain the idea... why don't you tell me what you think I mean for a starting point?

I think it ia saying that objective reality can bend to our will.

 

[otokage007]

that everyone and everything are bound to gravity, is a real objective fact. Therefore 1 is false, therefore 2 3 4 5 6 etc are false.

 

[ChristineES]

I agree with this....now if we could just explain that to gravity.

Gravity is all around us. Why not just tell it "Hey, gravity..." Seriously, even if someone were to reject gravity exists, it is still what is holding us onto the planet. That won't change.

 

[Storm]

I think it ia saying that objective reality can bend to our will.

Not quite, as that implies deliberate action on our part and resistance from 'reality.'

I didn't want to resort to fictional demonstrations, but have you read much Gaiman, Sandman in particular?

 

[1137]

Not quite, as that implies deliberate action on our part and resistance from 'reality.'

I didn't want to resort to fictional demonstrations, but have you read much Gaiman, Sandman in particular?

I have not.

 

[crossfire]

I think it ia saying that objective reality can bend to our will.

A satellite in a geosynchronous orbit appears to be defying gravity. However, it is actually a case of objective reality accommodating the will to have the satellite there. (Where there's a will, there's a way, but not necessarily in the manner you want it to be in.)

 

[Surya Deva]

Personal testimony is irrelevant.

Not really, because if it is irrelevant then we could never settle any cases in court Witness testimony and witness credibility do indeed play a factor. Your knowledge of scientific methods is pretty outdated. In modern science even qualitative research methods are considered valid means of collecting data and testimony is accepted as valid data.

Much like having a mystical experience is irrelevant because it is causr by brain activity and is therefore perceived as real.

Your belief. There is no proof that shows conscious experience is caused by brain acitivty. If you have proof, then submit it the scientific community and a nobel prize is guaranteed. As the biggest problem both in philosophy of science and philosophy of mind today is the hard problem of consciousness It literally appearing in every scientific field and proving to be a huge roadblock. So you seem to think you have proof, so your proof will be appreciated

How come you arr incapable of providing an onslaught of sources that telepathy is possible if it is so widely accepted?

I have already given you one reference to read Dean Radin's book, "Noeitic sciences" I never said it was widely accepted, I just said there is a strong body of research which if you are genuinely interested in you can easily find yourself by persuing the scientific literature. Dean Radin's book is a good start in outlining the key scientific experiments over the last century in the field. Dead Radin is a scientist himself and highly educated, working in many prestigious scientific departments as part of his career.

However, I believe you are simply close minded on this issue and no amount of evidence is going to be sufficient for you. After all for you the existence of an objective universe, time and space is your faith. Faith is by definition irrational. You are not available for rational discussion on this subject.

There have been experiments that disprove it, it isn't that hard. Expetiencing does not make it true. In your "reasoning", if I take LSD and trip that I was a attacked by a troll, it means trolls do in fact exist and I was in fact attacked by one.

Strawman. Neither straw dog or myself have said we did LSD. I have had psychic experiences of various kinds under no effects of drugs, and they have been vivid experiences and I have been able to corroborate them. I will not discuss the details with you because they are personal. However your general attitude which equates everybody whose had psychic experience with drug users is really offensive. In general you do have this offensive attitude that anybody who does not share your beliefs, must be stupid. But like I said before it says more about you than it does others.

Yeah, I totally believe quantum physics accepts there is no objective reality, therefore making their own discoveries not objectively true.

Non Sequiter fallacy. Quantum physics does not say anything definitive about the quantum because it cannot measure the quantum, the limits of quantum physics end at quantum decoherence. So quantum physics can indicate the quantum and the fact there is no objective reality, but it cannot say anything beyond that. In the same way as I told you the famous philosopher Kant was able to indicate the existence of noumenon or things in themselves, but could not actually say anything about the noumenon.

Your breadth of thought on the various perspectives that exist within philosophy of science is very narrow. I honestly think you would hate studying philosophy formally, for you do not really seem capable of challenging your basic assumptions like objective reality, and if you are rude and offensive as you are here with me with your lecturers in class and insinuate they are stupid for thinking objective reality does not exist, you can consider yourself expelled.

Neutral monism does not contradict objective reality, it simply says that all, is one at the fundamental level. Again, you do not think levels are accepted, so please provide the sources of scientists saying that there is no difference between the atomic and the quantum, that atoms do not exist, etc. (Don't worry, I know you can't and won't).

Neutral monism says that the mental and the physical are inseparable aspects of one another. That is indeed saying there is no independent physical objective reality.

This does not show that the atomic level does not exist, it says it is not the most basic. If I build a structure out of legos, both the structure and the legos exist, the structure is made of legos, the legos are more basic. The atomic level exists, it is created by the sub-atomic / quantum level, which is created by whateve is fundamental.

The building blocks here are the legos which aggregate to form the structure which is also made out of lego. However, in quantum physics it is shown that fundamentally there is no matter, space, time or gravity, so how can something which is spaceless, timeless, immaterial aggregate to form something which forms space, time and matter. To use your lego analogy it is like the base of the structure is non-existent, and if the base of your structure is non-existent, then the top of the structure cannot exist.

What you fail to appreciate which is pretty to obviously to anybody who thinks about it rationally that the reality that we perceive that appears to our to our senses is not the same as the actual reality. It is a representation. Hence in our representation we have many notions like space, time, matter, gravity and the 'I' which allows objective reality in the first place. In the actual reality these notions have shown not to be existent. Yes actual reality - not a "level of reality" There is no level of reality. Our perceived reality as proven by neuroscience is virtual The life-world that we live is nothing like the actual reality.

Many philosophers in several traditions of the world have pointed out our sensory reality is NOT reliable. Our sensory reality shows us many things which are not there like solidity of matter, the blueness of the sky, the flatness of the Earth and now as proven by quantum physics time and space itself.
The philosopher of Science Sellers calls this the "manifest image" This is the image of reality that we perceive. While, the image of reality described to us by science is known as the "scientific image" The scientific image is obviously more reliable than our manifest image.

Oh I have nothing against teleportation. But the idea that you can simply choose to teleport is laughable. In objective reality we can create devices that can help us defy objective reality. Going to the moon "defied" gravity, but it doesn't damage the OP. Unless you can just choose to defy gravity objective reality exists.

Again my contention is if it is possible for it happen via technology, it is possible for it to happen via the mind. After all, our mind is coordinating all processes in our body, chemical transformations, circulation, electrical activity, biomechanical processes, cell formation and bone formation and indeed in the actual reality we know this is all quantum processes. Moreover the body is not separate from the environment it is situated in, for the body is formed of the food we take in, the light we receive from the sun, the air we breath and the gravitational and magnetic forces that are exerted on it by the planet, sun and the moon. For even a simple process like lifting your finger it requires the fine coordination and cooperation of the entire system. If the mind is capable of controlling all these complex processes - then why can it not enable quantum processes like teleportation, levitation?

In fact technologies themselves that we develop can be found mirrored in natural systems like bats for example have their own sonar system and natural computers for navigation. Plants photosynthesize light at over 90% efficiency which no artificial man made processes can do, it is now believed that photosynthesis is using quantum computation.

As quantum physics show as there is no separability in reality and more recent experiments are showing there is no reality(i.e., a physical existence independent of consciousness) the existence of mind-matter interactions and action at a distance become a possibility.