Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Then what is he talking about when he indicated getting to know some Muslims is irrelevant next to the billions of them and it amounts to nothing more than a personal anecdote?
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Rape under Shariah
- Thread starter Raymann
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
Yeah, ISIS isn't that big of a group, with many methods condemned the Quran and by Islamic scholars alike.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
I do. Poverty and ignorance explain a lot.
It can't be easy to know that many countries are relatively wealthy while you are suffering.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
You said: "But there are many studies conducted by private entities that show statistics based on real cases and show in detail who are the people committing the crimes." Neither of these two sources provide "in detail" who are committing the crimes.
The first source contained 2 studies.
The first one was published in 2017 but the data is from 2015, so it's a bit old to be considered evidence of an ongoing problem. It only studies Sweden, so that's a bit narrow to make global conclusions about a religion. It also was not able to identify any details other than migrant status and continent of origin. ( That was part of your claim ) It didn't even track country of origin. So making the leap between 'Middle East/North African origin' and 'Muslim who was influenced SO MUCH by the Sharia Law in their home country that they committed rape in the new country, thinking it would be like home, and they wouldn't get caught' is something happening in your own brain, not something that is included in this study.
The second study was slightly more detailed, we still didn't get ethnicity, or religious status. It did correlate poor education with the rapists, though. Even more restrictive than the other study above, this study only includes data from 1 specific city in Sweden. So that, again, is not helpful supporting a claim of a global problem with a specific religion. The scope is too narrow. Not only that, but it studied less than 30 cases, if I read correctly. That's a very very small sample.
The second source you provided claims it can tie rape cases ( again only focusing on Sweden ) to countries of origin, but both the links provided to support these claims are broken. So, it really doesn't help your argument.
The other comment I have is that both Breitbart, and JihadWatch are questionable news sources. You're tipping your hand a bit, revealing a bias by directing readers to these 2 sites.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
You keep saying this, but you never defend it. When I say that the Qur'an encourages fighting, I back it up.
For example (see how that sounds? You might try it sometime.) verse 9:111, IMO, is one of the most important in the Qur'an, not only because of what it says, but because of its timing. It's one of the last verses created, which therefore demonstrates where Mohamed had taken Islam 20 years after inventing it. He was trying to rally the troops (troops didn't even exist in the first 12 years) to make war with the Byzantines when 'Allah' told him this: "God has bought from the believers their selves and their possessions against the gift of Paradise; they fight in the way of God; they kill, and are killed".
There are dozens of Islamic jihad groups spitting Allah's love and peace out of the barrels of AK-47s, and verses such as the above tell you EXACTLY why they're doing it.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Nothing wrong with that.
Do you think Ukraine should just "roll over" ?
Raymann
Active Member
It is important to clarify that I don't think there is any Muslim Sheik, Islamic sects nor Islamic laws that explicitly allow rape. In fact, the penalty for rape under Islam is death.
The problem is that it is impossible to prove rape under Islamic Shariah (Islamic laws).
In short, Islam harshly penalizes rape and at the same time makes it impossible to prove cases of rape.
You see the problem. On one hand, we cannot blame Islam and on the other hand, it is all Islam's fault.
Raymann
Active Member
You need to understand that none of the statistics available point specifically at Muslims as the sole reason to the problem.
That said if we evaluate that it is a fact that rape has increased dramatically after the big wave of immigrants to Europe from mostly Muslim countries then you have to draw some conclusions.
Example:
Most immigrants arriving in the wave are Muslims.
Most rapes are attributed to newly arrived immigrants.
Do we need to be geniuses to deduct that Muslim immigrants are responsible for the majority of the rapes?
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I don't think you've shown this as fact. You've brought some data from Sweden, but that's not Europe. You also haven't shown the trend of a big wave. The point I was making is that the conclusion you're drawing is your own. You haven't brought evidence of the connection. If you say it doesn't exist, then that should temper your confidence in the conclusion.
Show it with evidence.
In one study, from 2015, focused exclusively on Sweden.
The best you can say is that the majority of the rapes are from immigrants, and a good portion of those come from the Middle East and Northern Africa. Even if these immigrants identify as Muslim, what we don't know is how influenced they were by Sharia Law and the lack of repercussions in their original homes. So, you might be able to label them "most likely Muslims", but you can't blame Islam without more evidence.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Is a variation of the old self defense trope the best you can do?
Neither you nor anyone else has explained what Muslim armies were doing in places like northern Africa, Europe, and India 'defending' themselves. They were armies of conquest, and nothing you say will ever change that fact.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
You have to differentiate between the rape of captives/slaves versus Muslims (except wives, who can be raped according to verse 2:223).
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
BS.
Bin Laden was filthy rich.
The MANY "foreign fighters" that went to Syria from Europe were all but "poor" also.
I actually knew several of them. Most not personally, but through mutual friends and alike.
They weren't "poor". They were just middle class. Many weren't even of arab descent.
Having said that, poor people that aren't taken in by violent islamic doctrine don't act like that either.
To say that the core doctrines of Islam are irrelevant to these islamic militant groups, is to simply deny reality and the facts.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
How would you know?
Are you in poverty and uneducated?
You are changing the subject.
We are talking about the results of a survey regards the attitude of Muslims to al Qaeda in Indonesia and Egypt.
TagliatelliMonster
Veteran Member
I just told you in the post you are replying to.
No, I'm not.
No, we are not.
Those were just illustrations to make the point that while the statement "most muslims disagree with this" is true, there is the reverse side that while just a minority DOES agree with it, it still consists of a big chunk of people. A chunk far to big to just brush of as if they are irrelevant. They are not.
Having said that, on the poverty point..... PLENTY of countries and people live in poverty without resorting to practices the likes of that ISIS, Al qaida, Boko Haram, etc etc etc etc engage in.
And there is ONE thing that unifies all these groups. And that is the thing with which they defend their actions and with which they motivate it also.
And you know what that ONE thing is.
I'm going to allow you the chance of stating what that one thing is.
And it's not "poverty", as I have explained.
The Abdeslams weren't poor. None of the Belgians who went to Syria and joined up with ISIS were.
Several of them weren't even of arab descent.
Clearly, something else motivated them.
Guess what it was.
Here's a hint. The first wave of Belgians that went there, were recruited by a now-disbanded group called "Shariah4Belgium".
I've had several encounters with those dogs myself.
Raymann
Active Member
That's a pretty good summary,
The majority of rapes are from immigrants. TRUE
Most of these immigrants come from the Middle East and Northern Africa. TRUE
Most of these immigrants are Muslims TRUE
Can we blame Islam for the actions of Muslims? PARTIALLY YES.
Is rape easy to prove under Shariah? NO
Is it true that Muslim women would never accuse a rapist for fear to be accused of adultery? YES
So most rapes in Muslim countries are not reported? TRUE
Are there statistics of non-reported rapes? NO
Non-reported means is not happening? FALSE
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Well, that is what I was replying to.
I am not saying that it has nothing to do with religion, as religion and politics are intertwined, but your claim that poverty doesn't affect people's attitudes is quite absurd.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
Strawman. He did NOT say that. He said being poor doesn’t account for terrorism.
muhammad_isa
Well-Known Member
Terrorism is evil. There are multiple reason why people might commit evil. Poverty being one of them.
Most acts of terrorism are political in nature. Religion and politics are often intertwined.
Were WWI & WWII caused by Islamic sentiment?
I don't think so.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
The words in the Qur'an and the example set by Mohamed and the first Muslims being another.
And finish with another strawman/non sequitur.
stevecanuck
Well-Known Member
You have yet to explain how the great Islamic empire was created by fighting only in self defense.