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Rabbi Hirsch on the New Birth.

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John D. Brey said:
As Rabbi Hirsch makes clear, the new birth on the eighth day frees man from the law, which Rabbi Hirsch actually says rules over nature (and the flesh conceived by natural procreation), and enters man into a new plane of existence whereby he's free to make moral judgments for himself, without the law that rules over the old man,

rosends said:
Hirsch writes (page 301 of his commentary on Genesis, writing about verse 17:11)
"With cutting away the foreskin, the whole body receives the stamp of submission to the spirit carrying out the Divine Law of morality."
Note -- divine law, not man's freedom to make his own judgments.

Yes. I think the idea is that the body (flesh) is stamped with the mark of submission (the circumcision scar). But the new birth is the birth of the spirit of God in man (as contrary to the mere flesh born under subordination to law). ----Rabbi Hirsch seems clear that the flesh is conceived at night, from the passions of the flesh, and the ruler of the night (the serpent), while the spirit is conceived on the eighth day, in the light of day, not by flesh and blood, but by the Spirit of God. The flesh is subordinate to the law, but the spirit does more than the law prescribes, and that by its (the spirit's) very essence, rather than by obedience motivated by the harsh consequences of judgment on the lawbreaker.

rosends said:
Or, we can go back to volume 3 of the collected writings. The entire section on circumcision is on point, but here's a quote from p. 78, "All the physical aspects of our earthly existence, with all the impulses and forces, its riches and pleasures, must be brought under the firm control (milah) of the holy will of God."

In his writing, Rabbi Hirsch points out that the very word "milah" means "opposition." Brit milah is the covenant of "opposition" to the flesh, which is conceived in sin, and is thus born under the harsh authority of the law. He says to take a knife and put the flesh in its place. He plays on the Hebrew letters די (as you note below) which sound like "die." Circumcision is the cutting opposition (milah) that pulls the yod from underneath the dalet in the letter heh ה producing the letters dalet-yod די. Kill the flesh, and the spirit will live.

rosends said:
Circumcision is, according to Hirsch, a matter of binding the self in a covenant rife with obligations and rules as established by God. You might want to look at page 81 also, the first complete paragraph which starts "A mere glance at the Divine legislation given to Israel is sufficient to show that this Law does not in any way limit itself to regulating relations between man and man or to setting standards of justice and kindness for human society." Just read that and the rest, and your theory that circumcision frees one to make any of his own rules or to be separate from any divine law is blown out of the water. The paragraph on the top of 82 really destroys your premise. Do you have a copy of the text or should I type it all in for you? Turn to page 85 which then gets into the additions of positive commandments. At the bottom of 95 and going to 96 is also worthy of note: "It is to such a man that circumcision addresses itself, placing the knife into his hand and demanding that he himself apply the limits of God's Law to the sensual aspects of his body."

In the context of what you're saying above, Rabbi Hirsch gives the story of the Israelite's preparation to enter the land God has promised them. He notes that they're told not to spare man, woman, child, nor even animal. They are to destroy all flesh. . . . But, first, Rabbi Hirsch notes something important. Before they enter the land to annihilate their enemies, they must first destroy an enemy greater than they will encounter in the land. They are to take the knives prepared for destroying the enemies in the promised land, and circumcise all males (to include, for the first time, periah).

The knife of די is not to tame the flesh, or to mark a pact with the flesh. It's the death of the flesh. The utter destruction of the flesh. And in the symbolism, a particular, and central element of the flesh. It's ability to reproduce, to procreate. The Jew is born on the eighth day by the blood of Gentile flesh. He's born a Jew in the spirit that's freed from the flesh marked with a scar. He's virgin born on the eighth day. No flesh is used to conceive his Jewish identity. That flesh has been bled with a knife (circumcision, the foundation of Judaism, and the mechanism for conceiving the Jew). The flesh bled is not Jewish flesh. It's Gen(i)tile flesh. Bleeding that flesh is both the way a Jew is conceived, and the way we conceive what it is to be a Jew.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Kill the flesh, and the spirit will live.

Our offerings are directed to the aspect of God's rule that desires not destruction, but life. הי is the source of all life and of all future existence, and He is ready at all times to grant new life, new vigor, and a new future. Symboically, one offers his own life in order to win new life from God; one offers oneself up to God in order to be consecrated by God and to be elevated to a holy life on earth. . . To make an offering means to win from God eternal life. One does not offer up an animal; one offers up himself through the animal. When a person offers an animal before God and leans his hand upon it; when he slaughters it, collects its blood, dashes its blood upon the altar . . . in so doing he offers to God his own blood, his own mind . . and surrenders himself completely to the fire of God's Will, as set down for Israel in the Torah.

The Hirsch Chumash, Genesis 8:20.​

Circumcision is an offering. The blood is placed on the altar that is the child where the blood is drawn. Human flesh is the true altar of God. In the text quoted above, Rabbi Hirsch states that an offering is also a meal. And thus the importance of the symbolism of metzitzah.

In the Middle Ages, the mohel expectorated into a wine glass that the parents of the child drank from. Some of the wine (which Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman notes is symbolic of the blood itself) is placed on the lips of the child. The child is God's altar such that Midrash Rabbah states that wherever sacrificial blood is placed, there God will make His Presence reside. So circumcision, in many Jewish texts, always produces a theophany of God. In the Torah, God says wherever blood is spilled on the altar, He will make His Presence seen or felt (a theophany). Properly understood, brit milah produces a theophany of God. The sacrificial blood is spilled on the true altar: human flesh and blood.



John
 
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Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
*
I was under the impression that circumcision was a blood sacrifice - in place of the human sacrifice of the firstborn of the Hebrew.

*
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Yes. I think the idea is that the body (flesh) is stamped with the mark of submission (the circumcision scar). But the new birth is the birth of the spirit of God in man (as contrary to the mere flesh born under subordination to law). ----Rabbi Hirsch seems clear that the flesh is conceived at night, from the passions of the flesh, and the ruler of the night (the serpent), while the spirit is conceived on the eighth day, in the light of day, not by flesh and blood, but by the Spirit of God. The flesh is subordinate to the law, but the spirit does more than the law prescribes, and that by its (the spirit's) very essence, rather than by obedience motivated by the harsh consequences of judgment on the lawbreaker.
Oh, so the spirit which is born on that eighth day is NOT subject to laws and when the text reads, "submission to the spirit carrying out the Divine Law of morality" that doesn't relate to the spirit. It doesn't mean that the body now has to limit itself and follow what he spirit is bound to -- God's law. So even though it says that...it doesn't mean that.


In his writing, Rabbi Hirsch points out that the very word "milah" means "opposition." Brit milah is the covenant of "opposition" to the flesh, which is conceived in sin, and is thus born under the harsh authority of the law. He says to take a knife and put the flesh in its place. He plays on the Hebrew letters די (as you note below) which sound like "die." Circumcision is the cutting opposition (milah) that pulls the yod from underneath the dalet in the letter heh ה producing the letters dalet-yod די. Kill the flesh, and the spirit will live.
Please show me where R. Hirsch makes a connection to the sound of an English word, or where he says that the flesh is "conceived in sin."

In the context of what you're saying above, Rabbi Hirsch gives the story of the Israelite's preparation to enter the land God has promised them. He notes that they're told not to spare man, woman, child, nor even animal. They are to destroy all flesh. . . . But, first, Rabbi Hirsch notes something important. Before they enter the land to annihilate their enemies, they must first destroy an enemy greater than they will encounter in the land. They are to take the knives prepared for destroying the enemies in the promised land, and circumcise all males (to include, for the first time, periah).
If you had looked at the book, you would see that the context is not as you describe. The context is in the discussion of a discussion about man's being obligated in all laws AFTER circumcision. Have you even read the text?
The knife of די is not to tame the flesh, or to mark a pact with the flesh. It's the death of the flesh. The utter destruction of the flesh. And in the symbolism, a particular, and central element of the flesh. It's ability to reproduce, to procreate. The Jew is born on the eighth day by the blood of Gentile flesh. He's born a Jew in the spirit that's freed from the flesh marked with a scar. He's virgin born on the eighth day. No flesh is used to conceive his Jewish identity. That flesh has been bled with a knife (circumcision, the foundation of Judaism, and the mechanism for conceiving the Jew). The flesh bled is not Jewish flesh. It's Gen(i)tile flesh. Bleeding that flesh is both the way a Jew is conceived, and the way we conceive what it is to be a Jew.
This is all the stuff you made up. You have avoided what Hirsch actually said (heck, I gave you page numbers...) and repeated these bizarre inventions.
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
Our offerings are directed to the aspect of God's rule that desires not destruction, but life. הי is the source of all life and of all future existence, and He is ready at all times to grant new life, new vigor, and a new future. Symboically, one offers his own life in order to win new life from God; one offers oneself up to God in order to be consecrated by God and to be elevated to a holy life on earth. . . To make an offering means to win from God eternal life. One does not offer up an animal; one offers up himself through the animal. When a person offers an animal before God and leans his hand upon it; when he slaughters it, collects its blood, dashes its blood upon the altar . . . in so doing he offers to God his own blood, his own mind . . and surrenders himself completely to the fire of God's Will, as set down for Israel in the Torah.

The Hirsch Chumash, Genesis 8:20.​

Circumcision is an offering. The blood is placed on the altar that is the child where the blood is drawn. Human flesh is the true altar of God. In the text quoted above, Rabbi Hirsch states that an offering is also a meal. And thus the importance of the symbolism of metzitzah.
Your quote is on a verse related to Noah and his sacrifice after the flood. Nothing to do with circumcision. Pulling random quotes and deciding they relate is not a very good approach. And where do you get "meal" from that quote? And are you saying that a circumcision is a meal? You are grasping at straws and not very well.
In the Middle Ages, the mohel expectorated into a wine glass that the parents of the child drank from. Some of the wine (which Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman notes is symbolic of the blood itself) is placed on the lips of the child. The child is God's altar such that Midrash Rabbah states that wherever sacrificial blood is placed, there God will make His Presence reside. So circumcision, in many Jewish texts, always produces a theophany of God. In the Torah, God says wherever blood is spilled on the altar, He will make His Presence seen or felt (a theophany). Properly understood, brit milah produces a theophany of God. The sacrificial blood is spilled on the true altar: human flesh and blood.
Can you show me a citation that the parents drank from a glass into which the mohel spit? Is there value to drinking human saliva? Did you mean that the parents drank their child's blood? That sounds like a blood libel -- I'd love to read up on it. You do realize that Abraham was commanded to circumcise himself well before his son, Isaac, was born, so well before there was any binding. Claiming it is a sacrifice is useful only in English where the concept of "giving of yourself" in the loosest terms is "sacrifice." In Hebrew, the technical term for a sacrifice is not connected to the act of circumcision. There is no "sacrificial blood spilled on an altar."
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Oh, so the spirit which is born on that eighth day is NOT subject to laws and when the text reads, "submission to the spirit carrying out the Divine Law of morality" that doesn't relate to the spirit. It doesn't mean that the body now has to limit itself and follow what he spirit is bound to -- God's law. So even though it says that...it doesn't mean that.

The spirit is the essence of the law. The spirit is not under law. The spirit of the law doesn't (can't) break the law since whatever the spirit does becomes lawful. The law is a type of the spirit. The spirit is utterly free. It's not capable of sin or lawlessness. As Saul of Tarsus said, it does more than the law prescribes, easily. Only the flesh can sin. And thus the flesh must be placed under law. But the spirit of the Jew transcends the flesh. His Gentile flesh is under law, but his Jewish spirit, residing in the flesh, for a short time, is not under law. All flesh is Gen(i)tile. A Jew who is not circumcised has no Jewish spirit, and is only Jewish in an ethnic sense. Spiritually speaking he's still a Gentile.

rosends said:
Please show me where R. Hirsch makes a connection to the sound of an English word, or where he says that the flesh is "conceived in sin."

You must learn from Him how to say "די" [“die”] to the forces of sensuality, making His will your own. You must measure all the endeavors of your sensual being by the standards of His will. With the knife of His "די" . . . you must apply the מילה [milah], you must set limits to בשר ערלתו [uncircumcised flesh], the physical aspects of your body which otherwise you would not control. Only if you impose these restraints upon your physical self can you expect His blessings and His aid.

Rabbi Hirsch, Collective Writings Volume III.

rosends said:
If you had looked at the book, you would see that the context is not as you describe. The context is in the discussion of a discussion about man's being obligated in all laws AFTER circumcision. Have you even read the text?

The key point is that circumcision is the sacrifice of the flesh. As Rabbi HIrsch has been quoted to say, in this thread, all offerings represent the same thing as circumcision, the offering of the flesh (natural life) of the offerer. We're born, all of us, already dead and under the law, which, because we can't keep it, gives it authority over us unto death. So we sacrifice that sinful dead flesh to God and He gives us eternal life. The new man, post circumcision (post sacrifice), is a spiritual man, not a fleshly man. The spiritual man is not under law. The law no longer has jurisdiction over him. He is above the law. He does more than the law could make him do with threats and beatings and punishment as its motivator. The uncircumcised flesh can't even do what the law prescribes. So it eventually succumbs to death. The new man (Jew) never dies. He has everlasting life from the moment he's conceived, the eighth day, in the light of day.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
John D. Brey said:
Our offerings are directed to the aspect of God's rule that desires not destruction, but life. הי is the source of all life and of all future existence, and He is ready at all times to grant new life, new vigor, and a new future. Symboically, one offers his own life in order to win new life from God; one offers oneself up to God in order to be consecrated by God and to be elevated to a holy life on earth. . . To make an offering means to win from God eternal life. One does not offer up an animal; one offers up himself through the animal. When a person offers an animal before God and leans his hand upon it; when he slaughters it, collects its blood, dashes its blood upon the altar . . . in so doing he offers to God his own blood, his own mind . . and surrenders himself completely to the fire of God's Will, as set down for Israel in the Torah.

The Hirsch Chumash, Genesis 8:20.

Your quote is on a verse related to Noah and his sacrifice after the flood. Nothing to do with circumcision. Pulling random quotes and deciding they relate is not a very good approach. And where do you get "meal" from that quote? And are you saying that a circumcision is a meal? You are grasping at straws and not very well.

. . . But Rabbi Hirsch speaks of "our offerings" not Noah's. He's clearly using Noah's offering as a chance to speak of "offering" in general.

rosends said:
Can you show me a citation that the parents drank from a glass into which the mohel spit? Is there value to drinking human saliva? Did you mean that the parents drank their child's blood? That sounds like a blood libel -- I'd love to read up on it.

I have a number of citations. Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman, for instance, created a stir with his book Covenant of Blood by speaking of these things. The anthropologist Eric Kline Silverman went even further than Rabbi Hoffman by explicitly comparing metzitzah to the Eucharist.



John
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
The spirit is the essence of the law. The spirit is not under law. The spirit of the law doesn't (can't) break the law since whatever the spirit does becomes lawful. The law is a type of the spirit. The spirit is utterly free.
So far you have said nothing. These empty statements are not at all meaningful.
As Saul of Tarsus said, it does more than the law prescribes, easily.
Is he one of your authorities? Because no.
His Gentile flesh is under law, but his Jewish spirit, residing in the flesh, for a short time, is not under law.
And yet that flies in the face of what Hirsch said.

You must learn from Him how to say "די" [“die”] to the forces of sensuality, making His will your own. You must measure all the endeavors of your sensual being by the standards of His will. With the knife of His "די" . . . you must apply the מילה [milah], you must set limits to בשר ערלתו [uncircumcised flesh], the physical aspects of your body which otherwise you would not control. Only if you impose these restraints upon your physical self can you expect His blessings and His aid.

Rabbi Hirsch, Collective Writings Volume III.
Oh wow. I see your problem. You misunderstand the line "You must learn from Him how to say "די" [“die”] to the forces of sensuality". You don't know that in Hebrew, the word "die" (or "dye"...the transliteration is immaterial) means "enough." Nothing to do with death. In this song, it is translated as "complete".
The key point is that circumcision is the sacrifice of the flesh.
No, it isn't. You again don't know the difference between giving of yourself and a "sacrifice." You conflate them so you can draw bizarre conclusions.
The law no longer has jurisdiction over him.
Still against what Hirsch said. You shoudl read what I quoted. Hirsch said that after circumcision man is still under the law.
The uncircumcised flesh can't even do what the law prescribes.
Not at all true. If that were true then someone who was never circumcised could never circumcise himself. And yet they do. QED.

So it eventually succumbs to death. The new man (Jew) never dies. He has everlasting life from the moment he's conceived, the eighth day, in the light of day.
Then according to you, a baby born to a Jew who dies before 8 days (or later circumcision if it is delayed) doesn't have a soul which exists post death. Same with a tinok shenishba. And yet the talmud doesn't exclude those people from their soul's reward. Imagine that.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Is this a justification for circumcision?

Creation is a justification for circumcision (and vise versa). Circumcision is the basis for God's creation. Hidden in its rituals and symbols is the very nature of how God was able to create creatures with freewill --- and thus the ability to sin --- without that creation transgressing his utter perfection and or his inability to have a relationship, or contact with, or creation of, sin.



John
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
. . . But Rabbi Hirsch speaks of "our offerings" not Noah's. He's clearly using Noah's offering as a chance to speak of "offering" in general.
Yes, he is. Our offerings are two fold: one is the literal -- all that we give up in our service to God and the other is the Jewish concept that prayers are the equivalent of offerings. No mention of circumcision.

I have a number of citations. Rabbi Lawrence Hoffman, for instance, created a stir with his book Covenant of Blood by speaking of these things. The anthropologist Eric Kline Silverman went even further than Rabbi Hoffman by explicitly comparing metzitzah to the Eucharist.
What a wonderful misunderstanding of pages 90-92 in Hoffman's work! NO WHERE in the book does he say that any blood is put into the cup, nor that anyone drinks anything that has blood in it. Remember, this was your quote, "In the Middle Ages, the mohel expectorated into a wine glass that the parents of the child drank from." Your citation is to Hoffman who doesn't say this. No one is questioning whether the symbolism lends itself to some reading or another (though Hoffman is clear about the tenuous relationship between the Jewish symbology and that of other religions).

So before you make a claim, have a source. You don't.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So before you make a claim, have a source. You don't.

We should not pass lightly over the contiguity between the mohel’s act of drawing blood and cauterizing it, and then immediately pouring wine to apply to the child’s lips. Now we see why no blessing anticipated this cup. It was not meant to be consumed as wine at all, but was instead reserved as an oral transfusion of wine as blood for the child. . . Moreover, it is at least of interest that the cauterizing method strongly favored by medieval tradition calls on the mohel to suck the blood from the wound with his mouth [metzitzah].

Rabbi Lawrence A. Hoffman, Covenant of Blood, p. 91.

But it does not explain the necessity of sucking by the mouth, a practice preserved staunchly even as late as modern times, when attempts to replace it with more antiseptic means were vigorously rejected by traditionalists. They continued to follow the normal tannaitic cauterizing procedure of sucking the wound orally, which is to say, emulating the act of drinking wine.

Ibid. p. 91.

When we see, then, the wine being reserved for the infant to drink – a mirror image, so to speak, of the blood being sucked from him at the very same time --- and when we observe also the content of the extended prayer that adds Ezekiel’s words (line 55-56): “`I passed by you and saw you wallowing in your blood; and I said to you: `In your blood, live’; I said to you: `In your blood, live’” (Ezek. 16:6), we cannot help but notice a certain ritual integrity centering on the symbols of blood. In short: (1) The child’s blood flows from the wound, and the mohel sucks it out. (2) He pours wine, reserving it briefly for use in the naming prayer. (3) He says a naming prayer that includes the words from Ezekiel, “`In your blood, live,’” after which he puts the wine (as blood) on the baby’s lips.

Ibid. p.93

The practice reported by Kohen Tzedek turns up again in a medieval work that lists differences in custom between Jews in Babylonia and Jews in the Land of Israel. There we see that using a blood-water mixture was known to be a typically Babylonian practice. We get further information as well: "In Babylonia, they circumcise over water, and put it on their faces. In the Land of Israel, the circumcise over earth." And where on their faces did these young men apply the blood? Parallel texts in other medieval collections of geonic responsa tell us precisely--- "on their mouths." Just as the newly circumcised child had wine representing blood put on his mouth, so the older boys applied the child's actual blood (mixed with water) to theirs.

Ibid. p. 105.

Medieval Jews dunked the severed foreskin in a bowl of spiced water during circumcision, then washed their hands and faces in the bloody liquid (Trachtenberg 1939). Sometimes the infant's blood directly dripped into a basin of perfumed water for adolescent boys to rinse their hands, and faces, and mouths (Hoffman 1996: 103-105). In addition to evoking the ancient temple sacrifices, argues Hoffman, these ablutions expand the ritual focus beyond the child to encompass the entire community in covenantal renewal. . . During the annual Passover seder, Jews spill a drop of red wine to somberly recall the spilt blood of the Egyptians. Wine also symbolizes blood during the circumcision ceremony (Goldberger 1991: chap. 4; Hoffman 1996). The mohel raises a goblet and recites the standard blessing over wine (kiddush). But no sip immediately follows. Why the peculiar delay, which threatens to waste a ritual utterance of God's name? Because, answers Hoffman (1996:91), the wine is blessed as wine but quaffed as blood. . . The first person to sip during the circumcision ceremony is the infant. After the mohel performs metzitzah, he traditionally spits the child's blood into a goblet of wine or sloshes the blood and wine in his mouth and expectorates into a cup. Then the mohel dips his finger and gives the child a taste. The boy's parents next take a sip, followed by the mohel. . . Today, most Jews sip only wine. But they once drank blood. . . Sipping the circumcision wine as wine rather than blood also dilutes the symbolic potency of the rite. The Torah , to repeat, firmly prohibits the consumption of blood, one of the premier laws incumbent on all of humanity and not just Jews. Yet paramount ritual remembrance of the covenant, with all its promise of progeny, requires participants to violate this decree by drinking a child's "life force." To abandon this complex morality, regardless of whether or not one endorses it, is to deny the ceremony the very power that has enabled it to endure.

Eric Kline Silverman, From Abraham to America: A History of Jewish Circumcision, p. 138.
Silverman's last few statements are profound. How ironic that Jews drain circumcision blood of its lifeblood. The blood of circumcision, which is the very lifeblood of Jewish ritual, and thus reality, is drained of its symbolic import, its lifeblood, so that the ritual can become one more mitzvah slavishly practiced as though slavish obedience to the harsh law of the flesh ---that enslaves the old man ---- is made more real than circumcision blood, which, when properly understood, i.e., when not drained of its symbolic lifeblood, frees man from his slavery to law and allows him to ascend to the divine freedom of right action and right motivation.

Drinking blood is against the law. But since circumcision is the birth of the spirit, which is never under the law, since it's the spirit of the law (the law is its slave), whatever the spirit does informs and commands the law. There is no salvation without the ingestion of blood. Jesus said unless a man drinks the blood of circumcision he will not enter the kingdom of God. But a man cannot, and will not, drink circumcision blood unless, and until, he comes to believe that circumcision can free him from the slavery he incurred by means of the means of his first birth, rather his first conception, through the organ sacrificed to provide the blood for his new birth, his becoming born-again.

Circumcision blood is the conception of the essence of a Jew. The lifeblood of the ritual, when properly understood, allows us to conceive the spirit of Judaism.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
So before you make a claim, have a source. You don't.

PdRE [Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer] and Targum Jonathan are our earliest attestations of the custom of burying the severed foreskin and the blood. This custom should perhaps be connected with the equation of circumcision with sacrifice, since, according to PdRE, the blood of the atonement sacrifices is poured out on the foot of the altar in order to mingle with the blood of Abraham's circumcision (see above). Circumcision blood, like sacrificial blood, is to return to the earth. They allowed the circumcision blood to drip into a cup of water, and the resulting mixture was applied to the hands (or, in some versions, and faces) of those assembled for the event. In Germany in the high middle ages additional customs arose concerning the blood: the circumciser would spit the blood of metzitzah from his mouth into the cup of wine from which the baby would be given a few drops to drink; the circumciser would use a cloth to wipe the blood off his hands and mouth, and this cloth would be spread over the synagogue entrance; the blood would be collected in a cup and poured out on the ground in front of the Torah ark; some blood would be allowed to drip onto the baby's swaddling cloths, from which a Torah binder (a wimpel) would be made and presented to the synagogue. Perhaps some of these customs should be linked with the prominence assigned to circumcision blood by the medieval mystical traditions.

Shane J. D. Cohen, A Brief History of Jewish Circumcision Blood (from, The Covenant of Circumcision: New perspectives on an Ancient Jewish Rite, edited by Elizabeth Wyner Mark).

Several new practices placed special emphasis on bloodshed. After performing metsitsah, sucking blood from the circumcised penis, the mohel would spit some blood into the cup of wine from which he would place drops on the child's lips. He wiped blood form his hands and mouth ont a cloth, which was laid across the entrance to the synagogue. Some blood would be dripped into a cup and emptied before the Torah ark.

Leonard B. Glick, Marked in Your Flesh: Circumcision from Ancient Judea to Modern America, p. 63.

One medieval Ashkenazic custom that made blood public and visible was the habit of taking the cloth with which the mohel (the ritual circumciser) had wiped his hands of the blood and hanging it in the door of the synagogue in which the circumcision had been performed. The source that describes this custom specifies that the practice replicates the salvific smearing of the blood on the doorposts of the Jews in Egypt as protection against the Angel of Death. Yet the practice was enacted in the context of a Christianity that also publicly displayed icons of the blood of Christ. . . The justification for this rabbinic custom of metzitzah was generally medical: it was believed that sucking the blood would prevent infection. However, it is hard to avoid the suspicion that something more ritualistic was at stake. These Jewish practices might be called the mirror image of the Eucharist. In both cases, blood appears to be consumed, although in fact it is not.

David Biale, Blood and Belief: The Circulation of a Symbol between Jews and Christians, p. 98-99.

In the continuation of Abulafia's discussion in Gan Na'ul, either a cooptation of Christian motifs or the articulation of some remarkably parallel themes is apparent. The passage recalls the Christian perception of the sacred nature of Jesus' blood, which originates in the Gospels' contention that Jesus' blood possessed a sanctifying nature. The point of contact between this theme and that discussed earlier, concerning the blood placed on the posts and lintels of the doors of Israelite homes during the Exodus story, bears mentioning. Jesus is identified as the paschal sacrifice in the New Testament. As the lamb, his is the blood on the doors of the Israelite homes. For Abulafia, the structure of the posts and lintels of those doors signified circumcision. Implicitly, in that earlier case, the blood of circumcision was imbued with the same aura of sacrality, by Abulafia, that Christians ascribe to Jesus' blood.

Robert J. Sagerman, The Serpent Kills or the Serpent Gives Life: The Kabbalist Abraham Abulafia's Response to Christianity, p. 318.​




John
 

rosends

Well-Known Member
PdRE [Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer] and Targum Jonathan are our earliest attestations of the custom of burying the severed foreskin and the blood. This custom should perhaps be connected with the equation of circumcision with sacrifice, since, according to PdRE, the blood of the atonement sacrifices is poured out on the foot of the altar in order to mingle with the blood of Abraham's circumcision (see above). Circumcision blood, like sacrificial blood, is to return to the earth. They allowed the circumcision blood to drip into a cup of water, and the resulting mixture was applied to the hands (or, in some versions, and faces) of those assembled for the event. In Germany in the high middle ages additional customs arose concerning the blood: the circumciser would spit the blood of metzitzah from his mouth into the cup of wine from which the baby would be given a few drops to drink; the circumciser would use a cloth to wipe the blood off his hands and mouth, and this cloth would be spread over the synagogue entrance; the blood would be collected in a cup and poured out on the ground in front of the Torah ark; some blood would be allowed to drip onto the baby's swaddling cloths, from which a Torah binder (a wimpel) would be made and presented to the synagogue. Perhaps some of these customs should be linked with the prominence assigned to circumcision blood by the medieval mystical traditions.

Shane J. D. Cohen, A Brief History of Jewish Circumcision Blood (from, The Covenant of Circumcision: New perspectives on an Ancient Jewish Rite, edited by Elizabeth Wyner Mark).

Several new practices placed special emphasis on bloodshed. After performing metsitsah, sucking blood from the circumcised penis, the mohel would spit some blood into the cup of wine from which he would place drops on the child's lips. He wiped blood form his hands and mouth ont a cloth, which was laid across the entrance to the synagogue. Some blood would be dripped into a cup and emptied before the Torah ark.

Leonard B. Glick, Marked in Your Flesh: Circumcision from Ancient Judea to Modern America, p. 63.

One medieval Ashkenazic custom that made blood public and visible was the habit of taking the cloth with which the mohel (the ritual circumciser) had wiped his hands of the blood and hanging it in the door of the synagogue in which the circumcision had been performed. The source that describes this custom specifies that the practice replicates the salvific smearing of the blood on the doorposts of the Jews in Egypt as protection against the Angel of Death. Yet the practice was enacted in the context of a Christianity that also publicly displayed icons of the blood of Christ. . . The justification for this rabbinic custom of metzitzah was generally medical: it was believed that sucking the blood would prevent infection. However, it is hard to avoid the suspicion that something more ritualistic was at stake. These Jewish practices might be called the mirror image of the Eucharist. In both cases, blood appears to be consumed, although in fact it is not.

David Biale, Blood and Belief: The Circulation of a Symbol between Jews and Christians, p. 98-99.

In the continuation of Abulafia's discussion in Gan Na'ul, either a cooptation of Christian motifs or the articulation of some remarkably parallel themes is apparent. The passage recalls the Christian perception of the sacred nature of Jesus' blood, which originates in the Gospels' contention that Jesus' blood possessed a sanctifying nature. The point of contact between this theme and that discussed earlier, concerning the blood placed on the posts and lintels of the doors of Israelite homes during the Exodus story, bears mentioning. Jesus is identified as the paschal sacrifice in the New Testament. As the lamb, his is the blood on the doors of the Israelite homes. For Abulafia, the structure of the posts and lintels of those doors signified circumcision. Implicitly, in that earlier case, the blood of circumcision was imbued with the same aura of sacrality, by Abulafia, that Christians ascribe to Jesus' blood.

Robert J. Sagerman, The Serpent Kills or the Serpent Gives Life: The Kabbalist Abraham Abulafia's Response to Christianity, p. 318.​




John
Between all these quotes you have mentioned a few different ideas -- one that blood is represented by wine. This is nothing new, though the degree and intentionality which is claimed moves the needle a little. The blood being mixed with water or wine and used as an ablution is likewise interesting but not all that telling, nor inovative.

The claims by Silverman and Cohen are somewhat strange but fascinating. However, they present a problem for your logic. First Silverman also claims that the mohel becomes a demon and that "others" have to recite benedictions because he has become "gory." While others recite benedictions, the logic he employs is wrong. He also speaks of women who ate the foreskin. I wonder what conclusion you can draw about what the essence of the milah is based on that. It is clear, though, that the instance of mixing the spitted out blood with wine and drinking it was extant for only a brief time. Are you then saying that a practice which was established only in talmudic times (metzitzah) and the iteration which includes expectorating and drinking which was only in the middle ages represents the only time when circumcision was effective in the way you state?

That means that anyone and everyone, from Abraham to Moses to Jesus and for the next 1000 years, and then in any post medieval time and this includes Hirsch, isn't doing circumcision right and circumcision has never had the effect you insist it must. The process began in "middle high ages" Germany so that new practice is the only way that has any value? And something which you insist is the essential meaning and value was never written in ANY actual Judaic text, but had to arise as a very local custom in one place, in one limited era? I just want to make sure I know your position.

And of course, women cannot be saved.
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Between all these quotes you have mentioned a few different ideas -- one that blood is represented by wine. This is nothing new, though the degree and intentionality which is claimed moves the needle a little. The blood being mixed with water or wine and used as an ablution is likewise interesting but not all that telling, nor inovative.

The claims by Silverman and Cohen are somewhat strange but fascinating. However, they present a problem for your logic. First Silverman also claims that the mohel becomes a demon and that "others" have to recite benedictions because he has become "gory." While others recite benedictions, the logic he employs is wrong. He also speaks of women who ate the foreskin. I wonder what conclusion you can draw about what the essence of the milah is based on that. It is clear, though, that the instance of mixing the spitted out blood with wine and drinking it was extant for only a brief time. Are you then saying that a practice which was established only in talmudic times (metzitzah) and the iteration which includes expectorating and drinking which was only in the middle ages represents the only time when circumcision was effective in the way you state?

That means that anyone and everyone, from Abraham to Moses to Jesus and for the next 1000 years, and then in any post medieval time and this includes Hirsch, isn't doing circumcision right and circumcision has never had the effect you insist it must. The process began in "middle high ages" Germany so that new practice is the only way that has any value? And something which you insist is the essential meaning and value was never written in ANY actual Judaic text, but had to arise as a very local custom in one place, in one limited era? I just want to make sure I know your position.

And of course, women cannot be saved.

There's a thread (it's red and thus not properly read, not properly digested) that ties all these ideas together. Take, as you point out, women swallowing bloody foreskins. There's a number of ideas being made manifest in that practice. And as Silverman points out, often times the most important symbols and practices are hidden by the transgressive nature of their identity. If metzitzah represents drinking blood, and drinking blood is lawless, then the truest meaning of metzitzah is hidden from all good and lawful people by the transgressive nature (at least according to law) of the practice. Like metzitzah, women swallowing bloody foreskins is transgressive and repulsive to good people. It's hard to swallow let alone digest. It's problematic on a number of counts since the foreskin is generally considered an imperfection and a source of evil and sin. It's removal is thought of as the removal of an imperfection on the human body. Mystical texts even relate the foreskin to the serpent wound around the tree of life (i.e., the circumcised phallus). In this spirit, the foreskin is the serpent blocking the way to the tree of life; hiding the tree of life. Even implying that it, the serpent, is the tree of life.

So how can women benefit from swallowing the very imperfection circumcision is supposed to eliminate? In one sense there's the Jewish idea that you must come through knowledge (the tree of knowledge) to get to true life (even though they---truth and knowledge --- are often strange bedfellows). On another level, the practice suggests the blood of circumcision is so potent in a salvific sense that it can render even the very imperfection requiring circumcision clean and beneficial. But there's a much more fundamental meaning that requires the interpreter to understand concepts and revelations hidden even deeper behind transgressive allusions and the outer covering that is the pshat narrative of the Torah.

When reading a great sage like Rabbi Hirsch, it's important to realize that Rabbi Hirsch, and all like him, wrestle with the duality of the law and the spirit (with varying degrees of success) since the spirit of the law often appears to transgress the very law that comes out of its rib. The creation of the law wounds the spirit of the law, and that wound, when it becomes a suture (Gen. 2:21) starts the fallen zeitgeist that is human history after the simultaneous creation of the phallus and the woman, from the original desecration (Gen. 2:21). The creation of the woman requires the original desecration of the human body that's the source of the original sin: the creation of the organ (the penile raphe as the suture in Genesis 2:21) that makes the original sin possible.

The original sin is made possible by an original desecration, which, in a typological sense, is parallel to removing the law from the spirit and suturing up the spirit so that it can have intercourse with the law to birth a fallen conception of the relationship between law and spirit (mirrored in the creation of Lilith, followed by the original sin of phallic-sex, conceiving and birthing the murderer Cain).



John
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
There's a thread (it's red and thus not properly read, not properly digested) that ties all these ideas together. Take, as you point out, women swallowing bloody foreskins. There's a number of ideas being made manifest in that practice. And as Silverman points out, often times the most important symbols and practices are hidden by the transgressive nature of their identity. If metzitzah represents drinking blood, and drinking blood is lawless, then the truest meaning of metzitzah is hidden from all good and lawful people by the transgressive nature (at least according to law) of the practice. Like metzitzah, women swallowing bloody foreskins is transgressive and repulsive to good people. It's problematic on a number of counts since the foreskin is generally considered an imperfection and a source of evil and sin. It's removal is thought of as the removal of an imperfection on the human body. Mystical texts even relate the foreskin to the serpent wound around the tree of life (i.e., the circumcised phallus). In this spirit, the foreskin is the serpent blocking the way to the tree of life; hiding the tree of life. Even implying that it, the serpent, is the tree of life.

So how can women benefit from swallowing the very imperfection circumcision is supposed to eliminate? In one sense there's the Jewish idea that you must come through knowledge (the tree of knowledge) to get to truth (even though they---truth and knowledge --- are often strange bedfellows). On another level, the practice suggests the blood of circumcision is so potent in a salvific sense that it can render even the very imperfection requiring circumcision clean and beneficial. But there's a much more fundamental meaning that requires the interpreter to understand concepts and revelations hidden even deeper behind transgressive allusions and the outer covering that is the pshat narrative of the Torah.

When reading a great sage like Rabbi Hirsch, it's important to realize that Rabbi Hirsch, and all like him, wrestle with the duality of the law and the spirit since the spirit of the law often appears to transgress the very law that comes out of its rib. The creation of the law wounds the spirit of the law, and that wound, when it becomes a suture (Gen. 2:21) starts the fallen zeitgeist that is human history after the creation of the phallus and the woman, from the original desecration (Gen. 2:21) that is the source of the original sin: the creation of the organ (the penile raphe as the suture in Genesis 2:21) that makes the original sin possible.

The original sin is made possible by an original desecration, which, in a typological sense, is parallel to removing the law from the spirit and suturing up the spirit so that it can have intercourse with the law to birth a fallen conception of the relationship between law and spirit.



John
And by doing this you have elevated the folk practice, the fringe and unacceptable and turned it into the normative and the ideal by inventing symbolism which aligns with your agendized core belief system. There is a reason that certain practices never existed before or after one moment in time, and it isn't that everyone else is wrong; it is because the practice is problematic and does not conform to the actual belief system.

And I do think that Rabbi Hirsch would agree with my statement.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
And by doing this you have elevated the folk practice, the fringe and unacceptable and turned it into the normative and the ideal by inventing symbolism which aligns with your agendized core belief system. There is a reason that certain practices never existed before or after one moment in time, and it isn't that everyone else is wrong; it is because the practice is problematic and does not conform to the actual belief system.

And I do think that Rabbi Hirsch would agree with my statement.

I believe there's a comprehensive and uniform symbolism strewn throughout the Bible, Talmud, midrashim, for which we only get brief glimpses of the most virile threads that tie it all together. Rabbi Hirsch was positive toward the Zohar and kabbalah. It's just that circumstances led him in a different direction from the more mystical elements, which he believed in strongly, but didn't study fully. He was a true shepherd of the Jewish people and dealt with their needs at the time he lived. Horeb is one of my favorite books. It ranks at the top of my list of fatherly teaching from a true and faithful man of God.

I think it would be fair to consider the idea that what you call the "folk," the "fringe," the "unacceptable," is actually the spirit, which modern Judaism has placed beneath the law. And there's justification for doing that (placing spirit beneath the law) since the law provides the very possibility of the spirit being manifest and known.

But that returns us to the folk idea of the law being Eve, or Lilith, and the spirit being the blood of the first human. Can that which is formed, created, from another, rise above and enslave the very thing from which it was formed? Can the creature impound the creator? Can a woman teach a man? Can a woman rule a man? Can the law imprison the spirit from which it came?

Scholem speaks of a "primal flaw" that occurred in the original sin. The primal flaw inverts things. Law rules spirit. Women rule men. And this as a natural necessity of the way the world has fallen from its original form.


John
 
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rosends

Well-Known Member
I think it would be fair to consider the idea that what you call the "folk," the "fringe," the "unacceptable," is actually the spirit, which modern Judaism has placed beneath the law.
See, that's the thing. I don't. I think the spirit is the spirit and the folk custom is the folk custom. And the unacceptable? Unacceptable.
 
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