Quick question

[February-Saturday]

That is interesting. I know someone who speaks to certain Pagan gods, knows someone who does hear them, but the person I know just gets inspiration from them if I remember correctly.

What you have experienced sounds a lot like what people certain Christians experience to a lesser or greater extent.

Photo's, video and audio do not work well as evidence for things that many people think are supernatural because in the modern age, and as a designer myself, I am aware that these things can be manipulated. The first hand experience is what would really be convincing.

Has a demon ever manifested before your eyes? And are they demons in the Christians sense? Or djinn maybe?

Yes, I've had a few theophanic manifestations, two of which with other people present.

This second question is interesting to me, and of course I can only speak to my own experience, but I've actually done some work with sihr and djinn summoning.

In my experience, and I know a lot of other Satanists that would fight me on this, Judeo-Christian demons and the shayateen are pretty much the same thing. Not all djinn, since there are different classes, but ones like Maimun Abu Nuh seem indistinguishable from demons. Also in my experience, Iblis al-Shaitan is the same as Satan to the point that I can summon the one to continue a conversation I had with the other.

Personally, the idea that demons aren't fallen angels and are their own separate sort of species or order of spirit makes way more sense to me. While not all Satanists agree with me far enough to equate Iblis and the shayateen with Satan and His demons, most demonolators would agree that demons are not fallen angels.

In fact, while I'm not a Sufi, the Sufi ideas of Satan being a quasi-benevolent adversary that refines the practitioner through tests actually line up very closely with my experience. So if I had to pick, I'd say that they're closer to demons in the Islamic sense partially because Christian demonology focuses a lot on demons as fallen angels. Jews also tend to view demons along similar lines of refinement and tests.

However, obviously there are still a lot of differences in opinion there. I think it's more honest to say that they're demons in a uniquely Satanic sense. I actually think most Abrahamic occultists have a very limited understanding of demons and, due to that lack of understanding, can only ever work with corrupted echoes. This is elaborated on in pretty detailed esoteric terms by the Temple of the Black Light, who link the (and I apologize, this isn't my term) "Christian corruption" of demons almost directly to their radically different beliefs about Satan. I've spoken to Christian occultists that have a hard time coming to grips with some of the experiences of Satanists, because our experiences with demons are radically different. Most of them just outright dismiss all Satanists because of it.

 

[Hawkins]

When satan was made he was a good guy.And there was nobody around to make him rebel.If he didn't have anyone to tell him to go against God.Then why did he rebel in the first place? Sorry if I have asked this before.

It's about how freewill works. Freewill in a sense represents the ability to reject God. Someone will when given the possibility.

 

[Samael_Khan]

Yes, I've had a few theophanic manifestations, two of which with other people present.

That is fascinating

This second question is interesting to me, and of course I can only speak to my own experience, but I've actually done some work with sihr and djinn summoning.

What is a sihr?

In my experience, and I know a lot of other Satanists that would fight me on this, Judeo-Christian demons and the shayateen are pretty much the same thing. Not all djinn, since there are different classes, but ones like Maimun Abu Nuh seem indistinguishable from demons. Also in my experience, Iblis al-Shaitan is the same as Satan to the point that I can summon the one to continue a conversation I had with the other.

Me , and a few other people I know, have the opinion that Muhammed heard stories about the Demons, fallen angels, from the Bible and he got it wrong. When I was a christian I was of the idea that Satan gave a false description of himself to Muhammed so that Islam isn't opposed to the actual demons. So Satan and Iblis al-Shaitan would be the names of the same person with that view. But that is just an opinion.

Personally, the idea that demons aren't fallen angels and are their own separate sort of species or order of spirit makes way more sense to me. While not all Satanists agree with me far enough to equate Iblis and the shayateen with Satan and His demons, most demonolators would agree that demons are not fallen angels.

That depends on your definition of demons. Actually there are demons in many different religions, even in Ancient Egyptian myth, but they all refer to different entities. It is just a word. The concept you are actually thinking of might have a different name.

In fact, while I'm not a Sufi, the Sufi ideas of Satan being a quasi-benevolent adversary that refines the practitioner through tests actually line up very closely with my experience. So if I had to pick, I'd say that they're closer to demons in the Islamic sense partially because Christian demonology focuses a lot on demons as fallen angels. Jews also tend to view demons along similar lines of refinement and tests.

That is interesting, as I never knew that Sufi's had that idea of Satan. But in Islam there are good Djinn and bad Djinn, they are like human beings, a race of creatures and sometimes they even assist humans. For instance Islam has a story of how Solomon was assisted by djinn and I think he had control over them.

However, obviously there are still a lot of differences in opinion there. I think it's more honest to say that they're demons in a uniquely Satanic sense. I actually think most Abrahamic occultists have a very limited understanding of demons and, due to that lack of understanding, can only ever work with corrupted echoes. This is elaborated on in pretty detailed esoteric terms by the Temple of the Black Light, who link the (and I apologize, this isn't my term) "Christian corruption" of demons almost directly to their radically different beliefs about Satan. I've spoken to Christian occultists that have a hard time coming to grips with some of the experiences of Satanists, because our experiences with demons are radically different. Most of them just outright dismiss all Satanists because of it.

What type of differences are their between actual demons and the Christian view of them?

 

[February-Saturday]

What is a sihr?

Sihr is a word for Persian/Islamic sorcery, or witchcraft. It's mostly associated with curses, but it's also associated with djinni summoning and worship. It's very similar to the medieval use of the word "witchcraft."

That depends on your definition of demons. Actually there are demons in many different religions, even in Ancient Egyptian myth, but they all refer to different entities. It is just a word. The concept you are actually thinking of might have a different name.

While that's true, I'm mostly interested in the demons of European occultism as anticosmic or Satanic manifestations, which narrows the field quite a bit.

That is interesting, as I never knew that Sufi's had that idea of Satan. But in Islam there are good Djinn and bad Djinn, they are like human beings, a race of creatures and sometimes they even assist humans. For instance Islam has a story of how Solomon was assisted by djinn and I think he had control over them.

The Testament of Solomon wasn't originally Arabic, interestingly enough. It was written in Greek alongside early Christianity. The original story was about Solomon enslaving "evil" demons with the help of the archangel Michael.

What type of differences are their between actual demons and the Christian view of them?

I'd say the two major mistakes are viewing demons as subordinate to angels and viewing demons as interlaced with the material world. There's an excessive emphasis in Christian occultism that places demons and Satan as rulers of this world, who want mankind to abandon spirituality in favor of materialistic pursuits.

In contrast, demons pushed me towards Gnosticism, which is essentially the exact opposite of that entire concept. You don't really get any more anti-materialist and pro-spirituality than Gnosticism. And in my experience, demons and angels have about the same level of power, but it all depends on the castor who interacts with them. The reason why Christian occultists tend to think angels are more powerful is because they're powerful occultists that call on several angels when faced with a single demon. You don't perform an exorcism by chasing away a demon with a crucifix, there's a reason why it's a long process that requires extensive blessings and prayers to a variety of different figures.

In my experience, and this is probably controversial among Satanists, demons do hate humans (I mean, there's a reason the Temple of the Black Light were originally named the Misanthropic Luciferian Order). And they do tempt man into self-destructive behavior. Except they don't actually want us to give into their temptations, and their contempt for us is precisely because we're so easily corruptible. It's not so much that they're "jealous" as it is a disdain for our weakness. Due to that same hatred, they're willing to help whoever petitions them to overcome that weakness; they aren't entirely malevolent. They seem to have a lot of respect for people, no matter what background, who seek to better themselves. Some Christian occultists have noticed this, too, although many of them have not.

Demons also would never betray their own worshipers. Whether they love us or not, that's a different story, but they aren't stupid. You don't screw over your own allies. It doesn't make a lot of sense to build up an ally over a whole lifetime just to bench them and torture them for eternity, or undermine them on a deal. It's just not a viable long-term strategy.

Are demons cuddly fluff-bags who support Christian values? No. They're not base, mindlessly hateful creatures, either.

 

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When satan was made he was a good guy.And there was nobody around to make him rebel.If he didn't have anyone to tell him to go against God.Then why did he rebel in the first place? Sorry if I have asked this before.

Hi @Frank Goad

I think your question is intuitive and interesting.

Outside of historians and restorational Christianity, Most Modern Jewish and Christian movements have lost the early Judeo-Christian doctrines regarding the circumstances surrounding Satan/Lucifer/Iblis’ Fall from high position among the angels; and regarding Lucifers motives for rebellion in heaven or for his actions in the Garden against adam and his continuing ire against God and those who attempt to seek to find God and to follow his plan.


MUCH OF EARLY JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN HISTORY AND TRADITIONS ARE NO LONGER TAUGHT

The loss of this historical context by later Jewish and Christian movements is important since Lucifer’s ongoing enmity and motives for being an enemy to God; his motives for engineering the “fall of Adam” and his continuing recalcitrance toward God provide concrete rational models providing greater understanding of evil which the later Judaism and Christian movements lack. And yet the fall of Lucifer/satan/iblis/the devil/etc. from heaven was a crossroads of doctrinal agreement between ancient Judaism, Christianity and Islam (and their early literature).

I think it is an important historical context to keep in mind that Lucifer’s “fall” did not happen suddenly nor in a contextual vacuum. That is, the “good” Archangel Lucifer did didn't simply wake up in a bad mood and decide to be “evil” one morning. But instead, Lucifers fall was more logical and it occurred in the context of several frustrating controversies, (some more important than others). The most famous controversy in ancient Jewish and Christian (and Islamic) texts occurred during the honoring of Adam which itself takes place in the greater context of God the Fathers Plan.

It is contextually important to understand that, in this ancient Judeo-christian theology :

1) The spirits of angels and the spirits of mankind existed prior to mortality

2) God the Father’s plan entailed moral advancement of the spirits of mankind

3) The Honoring of Adam was logical in view of his role in inaugurating God’s plan for mankind

4) Lucifer’s “rebellion” was more than a refusal to “honor Adam”.

5) Lucifer’s “punishment” relates to his rebellion against the plan AND God himself



Without considering conditions PRIOR to Lucifer’s rebellion, then the rebellion cannot be understood as the ancient Jews and Christians (who wrote their early texts) understood it.

A) GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN FOR MAN, (WHICH LUCIFER ULTIMATELY REBELS AGAINST)

In this ancient model, before the creation of this world, God was in the midst of spirits. Early textual testimonies describe innumerable spirits existing in “heaven” before creation and, they describe what God intended to do with these innumerable spirits.

Regarding his vision of pre-creation heaven, Enoch records : "No one could come near unto him [God the Father] from among those that surrounded the tens of millions (that stood) before him". (1 En 14:23). Enoch continues : "I saw a hundred thousand times a hundred thousand, ten million times ten million, an innumerable and uncountable (multitude) who stand before the glory of the Lord of the Spirits". (1 Enoch 40:1-2)"

“At the time that the Holy One, be blessed, was about to create the world, he decided to fashion all the souls which would in due course be dealt out to the children of men, .... Scrutinizing each, he saw that among them some would fall into evil ways in the world. Each one in it’s due time the Holy One, be blessed, bade come to him, and then said: “Go now, descend into this that this place, into this and this body.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

In this early Judeo-Christian model described in early literature, God was in the midst of spirits of all the spirits who ever lived or will live on this earth.



B) BECAUSE GOD WAS INTELLIGENT AND POSSESSED POWER AND CHARITY, HE DEVISED A PLAN TO ALLOW THESE SPIRITS TO ADVANCE

The ancient Jewish doctrine that God had instituted a divine plan is interwoven into multiple texts : "Before all things came to be, [God] has ordered all their designs" (Dead Sea Scrolls 4Q255-264)

“....I (the Father), in the midst of the light (glory), moved around in the invisible things, like one of them, as the sun moves around from east to west and from west to east. But the sun has rest; yet I did not find rest, because everything was not yet created. And I thought up the idea of establishing a foundation, to create a visible creation." (2nd Enoch 24:4)

The Prophet Enoch describes the earliest stages of this plan before it was known among the heavenly host : "for not even to my angels have I explained my secrets, nor related to them their origin, nor my endless and inconceivable creation which I conceived." (2nd Enoch 24:3) In these descriptions of his Plan, God the Father seems to take great care in both the planning of and in ensuring the deep involvement of the Heavenly Hosts (for whose benefit the plan existed).

Though these texts tell us that all the spirits of men existed before the creation of the earth, the spirits were in no way equals (just as we are not equal now). Among them were the more intelligent and gifted; i.e. those who were more full of grace and truth than others. In addition to Lucifer, God the Father and Adam, all other key players are all present in this pre-mortal realm. In Enoch’s vision, he also see’s the pre-mortal Jesus with the Father. Upon seeing the two together, Enoch asks who this individual (Jesus) is and what role he has in the Father's Plan :

"At that place, I saw the Beginning of days [i.e. the Father] And his head was white like wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one – from among the angels –who was going with me,..."Who is this and from where could he be, and for what reason does he go with him who precedes time?" And he answered me and said to me, "This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells...the Lord of the spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of the spirits in eternal uprightness...." (1 Enoch 46:1-4)

It is in this context that the Apostolic Father Ignatius taught that among those spirits was "Jesus...who before the ages was with the father..” (Ignatius :6:1). The ancient records show the Father and Jesus, from early on, possessed a great similarity and unity. Jesus was given greater authority and administrated much of the Father’s plan from early on (God’s "right hand" was one of the Pre-Creation Jesus’ appellations). Diogenes relates this ancient doctrine : "And when he revealed it (his plan) through his beloved Child and made known the things prepared from the beginning, he gave us to share in his benefits and to see and understand things which none of [us] ever would have expected.. So then, having already planned everything in his mind together with his child... (Diog 301:8-11)

Jewish Zohar relates mortality to a moral education received by coming to mortality : “...why do they [the spirits of mankind] descend to this world only to be taken thence [back to heaven] at some future time? “This may be explained by way of a simile: A king has a son whom he sends to a village to be educated until he shall have been initiated into the ways of the palace. When the king is informed that his son is now come to maturity, the king, out of his love, sends the matron his mother to bring him back into the palace, and there the king rejoices with him every day..... “ (The zohar - A seal upon your heart)

The advancement entailed by God's plan was something the spirits wanted : Enoch says that he saw : "...the fountain of righteousness,...surrounded completely by numerous fountains of wisdom. All the thirsty ones drink (of the water) and become filled with wisdom. (Then) their dwelling places become with the holy, righteous, and elect ones.‘

Many spirits wanted to drink from that same wisdom and take their place with others who were “holy, righteous and elect”.

It is Baruch that reminds us of the innate ability of the spirit of men to advance in knowledge consistent with God’s plan. He says : “For the nature of men is always changeable. For as we were once, we are no longer, and as we are now, we shall not remain in the future. For if an end of all things had not been prepared, their beginning would have been senseless”. (2 Baruch 21:16-17)

Even at this early, less sophisticated stage of existence, spirits were able to exercise their agency. Thus the spirits of men were able to exercise choice to take part in this plan despite difficulties they will experience in mortality (as Job was reminded), just as they are allowed moral choice in this life.

Given the grandeur and the pure intent and profound implications of God’s plan for mankind, it may start to make some sense of what it meant for Lucifer, not only to refuse to take part in the plan, but to openly rebel against the plan, and ultimately rebel against God the Father himself.

C) GOD’S PLAN WAS SET IN MOTION AND ENTAILED A MATERIAL CREATION AND A MORTAL EXPERIENCE

God’s plan moved forward and preparations were made over a great deal of time including a physical creation in preparation for mortality.

Though multiple creation accounts exist, the earlier Christian accounts make it clear both that God created the Planets and Stars (often translated “orbs” or “circles”) out of “lessor”, or more chaotic material, and, importantly, he commissioned the Pre-creation Jesus (Often called “the word” or his “right hand”) to administrate over this material creation of an earth which will then be populated with embodied spirits for their education and testing.

Thus the early Synagogal prayer reflects this doctrine : “We give thanks to you, O God and Father of Jesus our Savior...O Master Almighty, the God of the universe, you created the world and what is in it through him,... (Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers - aposCon 7.26. 1-3)

Or prayer #3 “ Blessed are you, O Lord, King of the ages, who through Christ made everything, and through him in the beginning ordered that which was unprepared” (i.e. chaotic matter) (#3 prayer That meditates upon God’s Manifold Creative Power) (aposCon 7.34.1-8)

or prayer #4 that addresses God the Father : “For you are the Father of wisdom, the Creator, as cause, of the creative workmanship through a Mediator....” #4 (aposCon 7.35.1-10);


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The Jewish Geninza 4Q texts are clear that, despite delegation of important roles, the plan IS the Father’s plan and that he “determined all your works before you created them, together with the host of your spirits and the assembly of your holy ones… - all your designs for the end of time..”

God counsels with those whose involvement he wants, but it remains God the Father's plan : “Moreover the Holy One, blessed be he, does nothing in his world without first taking counsel with them; then he acts, as it is written” (3Enoch :4 283).

This early Jewish teaching that the physical creation was accomplished for the purpose of advancing mankind is the same tradition as the early Christians held. New Testament Hermas taught : "...don’t you understand how great and mighty and marvelous God’s glory is, because he created the world for the sake of man, and subjected all his creation to man..” (Her 47:2-4).

The physical creation of the earliest ancient accounts was accomplished by taking “lessor” or more chaotic matter, and organizing it into a “higher” or more organized and purposeful form such as the organized earth had. Old Testament Enoch describes this process : “And I called out a second time into the very lowest things, and I said, ‘Let one of the (in)visible things come out visibly, solid.’..” (2nd Enoch 26:1).

From this lesser organized, chaotic debris, the earth and other planets were formed : “And thus I made solid the heavenly circles (orbs). ...And from the rocks I assembled the dry land; and I called the dry land Earth. “ (2nd Enoch 28:1-2).

And thus, in company with the Pre-Mortal spirit of Jesus (called "the word” or “the right hand” in some accounts), the Father accomplished creation. “I said, “O Lord, you spoke at the beginning of creation, and said on the first day, ‘Let heaven and earth be made, ‘ and your word accomplished the work...Again, on the second day, you created the spirit of the firmament and commanded him to divide and separate the waters...On the third day you commanded the waters to be gather together...For your word went forth, and at once the work was done. “ (4th Enoch 3:38-42).




D) ADAM IS HONORED FOR HIS ROLE IN INAUGURATION OF GOD’S PLAN TO EDUCATE THE SPIRITS OF MANKIND

Because of what Adam is about to do, his role in inaugurating the great plan of Salvation of all men, God, the Father, places Adam on a throne and Adam is given a crown of Glory and a scepter. Jesus relates “My Father made every order [of angels] in the heavens to come and honor him, whether angel or archangel. And all the hosts of heaven worshiped God first of all, and then they honored Adam, saying, “Hail, thou image and likeness of God!” (D on Abbaton)

Christian Cave of Treasures relates the scenes thusly: “There he was arrayed in the apparel of sovereignty, and there was the crown of glory set upon his [Adams'] head, there was he made king, and priest, and prophet, there did God make him [Adam] to sit upon his honorable throne, and there did God give him dominion over all creatures and things.”

“And the angels and the hosts of heaven heard the Voice of God saying unto him, "Adam, behold; I have made thee king, and priest, and prophet, and lord, and head, and governor of everything which hath been made and created; and they shall be in subjection unto thee) and they shall be thine, and I have given unto thee power over everything which I have created." And when the angels heard this speech they all bowed the knee and honored Him.”

It ought to be perfectly clear that as milestones were reached in the moving forward of God’s Plan for the spirits of mankind, the inauguration of mortality was an incredibly important phase that all spirits had long been anticipating. Thus, the “honoring of Adam” was not simply an arbitrary and spontaneous “office party” thrown at a whim, but it was a recognition of the culmination of organization and creation over a great deal of time and the inauguration of the opening phase of mortality of all mankind..



E) LUCIFER’S REFUSAL TO HONOR ADAM WAS ONE IMPORTANT CONFLICT (AMONG MULTIPLE CONTROVERSIES) IN EARLY JUDEO--CHRISTIAN RELIGION

Regarding my reference to Lucifer’s refusal to honor Adam. It Is important that readers understand that I did not simply pick out a single “obscure” reference describing this story. Rather, this early doctrine was taught is described in many ancient Jewish, Christian and Islamic texts over a great deal of time and space.

For examples: Sedrach relates : “You commanded your angels to honor Adam, but he who was first among the angels disobeyed your order and did not honor him: and so you banished him because he transgressed your commandment and did not come forth to honor the creation of your hands." (The Apocalypse of Sedrach 5:1-7)

The Christian text “Life of Adam and Eve” relates the same incident :

Speaking to Adam, the Devil said : “ ...because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth.” 2 Adam answered, “What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Ch 13 “The devil replied,...It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. 2 When .......Michael brought you and made (us) honor you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ Ch 14 3 And I answered, ‘I do not honor Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not honor one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to honor me.’ 15 1 When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to honor him. (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3; 16:1-3)

The early Christian Text “Cave of Treasures” relates : “And when the prince of the lower order of angels saw what great majesty had been given unto Adam, he was jealous of him from that day, and he did not wish to honor him [Adam]. And he said unto his hosts, "Ye shall not honor him [Adam], and ye shall not praise him with the angels. It is meet that ye should honor me, because I am fire and spirit; and not that I should honor a thing of dust, which hath been fashioned of fine dust."

Enoch relates, in the context of this Lucifer’s rebellion : “ the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it. ....And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam. (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

Jewish Haggadah (having Talmudic origins) also relates : “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels...After Adam had been endowed with a soul, God invited all the angels to come and pay him reverence and homage. Satan, the greatest of the angels in heaven,....refused to pay heed to the behest of God, saying, “You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan

The text then relates the "battle of wits" between Lucifers spirit and Adam's spirit where Lucifer is bested and loses "face".

Christian Bartholomew also confirms the story as Lucifer says : “And when I came from the ends of the world, Michael said to me: ‘Honor the image of God which he has made in his own likeness.’ But I said: ‘I am fire of fire. I was the first angel to be formed, and shall I honor clay and matter?” And Michael said to me: ‘Honor, lest god be angry with you.’ I answered: ‘God will not be angry with me, but I will set up my throne over against his throne, and shall be as he is [Isa. 14:14f]. ‘ then god was angry with me and cast me down,...” (The Gospel of Bartholomew Ch IV)

This doctrinal controversy is not simply Jewish and Christian in it’s nature, but it’s also confirmed by the Sixth Century Quran text :

"..And (remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "I am going to create a man (Adam) from sounding clay of altered black smooth mud. So, when I have fashioned him completely and breathed into him (Adam) the soul which I created for him, then fall (you) down prostrating yourselves unto him." So, the angels prostrated themselves, all of them together. Except Iblis (Satan), - he refused to be among the prostrators. (Sura 15:28-31)

In Sura 20 : “ And (remember) when We said to the angels: "Prostrate yourselves to Adam." They prostrated (all) except Iblis (Satan), who refused. (Sura 20:116)

In Sura 38 : “ (Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." So the angels prostrated themselves, all of them: Except Iblis (Satan) he was proud and was one of the disbelievers. (Sura 38:71-74)

In Sura 7 : “And surely, We created you (your father Adam) and then gave you shape (the noble shape of a human being), then We told the angels, "Prostrate to Adam", and they prostrated, except Iblis (Satan), he refused to be of those who prostrate. (Allah) said: "What prevented you (O Iblis) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblis said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay." (Sura 7:11-12)

In Sura 18 : “And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord.... (Sura 18:50)

The point in repeating this doctrine from so many different ancient sources and versions is to show that this specific controversy and it’s relation to the doctrine of the “Origin” of Satan, is VERY ancient, the doctrine is VERY widespread among a large group of ancient literature, and the doctrine is VERY “orthodox” to the ancient Christians and other religious groups as well.

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G) THE NATURE OF LUCIFER’S REFELLION IN THE CONTEXT OF GOD THE FATHER’S PLAN.

The nature of Lucifer’s punishment indicates the seriousness of what he did : When Enoch tells the fallen angel Azaz’el that “There will not be peace unto you; a grave judgment has come upon you. They will put you in bonds because you have taught injustice (1st Enoch 13:1-3), Enoch is not speaking of mere “naughtiness” or mere “disagreement” with God’s plan.

Such fallen angels were told “judgment is passed upon you. 5 From now on you will not be able to ascend into heaven unto all eternity, (1st Enoch 14:3-5) because their rebellion had much greater ramifications than simple disagreement with God.

The jewish Haggadah describes the “wary reluctance” some souls experienced to leave a pre-mortal “heaven” to be born into mortality. Speaking this sort of “reluctance” the Zohar describes how God, tells a spirit to “Go now, descend into this and that place, into this and this body.” Yet often enough the soul would reply: “Lord of the world, I am content to remain in this realm, , and have no wish to depart to some other, where I shall be in thralldom, and become stained.” Whereupon the Holy One, be blessed, would reply: “Your destiny is, and has been from the day of thy forming, to go into that world.” (The Zohar - The Destiny of the Soul)

Such “unconfidence” is not “rebellion” and such souls are given encouragement and still sent into mortality through birth according to God’s plan. However, just as “reluctance” is not “rebellion”, Lucifer’s “rebellion” was not merely “reluctance”. Lucifer’s rebellion was described as a willful and confident full fledged disagreement which evolved into a plan for an asaultive counter “coup” having a DIFFERENT administration under a DIFFERENT King and DIFFERENT goals to the ultimate effect of nullifying God’s initial plan.

In the context of controversies such as Lucifer’s “last straw” over Adam, one can better understand the sparks that made up the fires of the Rebellion or “war in heaven” itself.

In reference to a different, earlier controversy regarding the knowledge, that IF man, having free will, was sent to earth, then mankind would certainly commit moral atrocities. This was known long before the fall of Adam, and in fact, long before Adam was placed into the Garden. 3rd Enoch relates one of the fallen angels complaints against God the Father and his plan :

"Then three of the ministering angels, Uzzah, Azzah, and Aza’el, came and laid charges against me in the heavenly height. They said before the Holy One, blessed be he, ‘Lord of the Universe, did not the primeval ones give you good advice when they said, Do not create man!’ The Holy One, blessed be he, replied, ‘I have made and will sustain him; I will carry and deliver him.’ (3rd Enoch 4:6)

Such references hint of the other controversies and together, they offer a coherent history regarding such related controversies and their relationship to Lucifers Fall.


Regarding Lucifers’ specific controversy with Adam :

Jewish Haggadah relates that “The extraordinary qualities with which Adam was blessed, physical and spiritual as well, aroused the envy of the angels......You created us angels from the splendor of the Shekinah, and now you command us to cast ourselves down before the creature which you fashioned out of the dust of the ground!” God answered, “Yet this dust of the ground has more wisdom and understanding than you.”... (The Haggadah -The Fall of Satan)

This Haggadic summary illuminates the growing anger in an envious Lucifer. This haggadic text goes on to relate a subsequent battle of wits between the spirits of Lucifer and Adam which leaves Lucifer publicly upstaged and discontented and frustrated. Much like the one-sided debates we sometimes see on this public forum when a poster loses face. How would an envious, upstaged and angry Lucifer be expected to react? Especially given that “the devil understood how I wished to create another world, so that everything could be subjected to Adam on the earth, to rule and reign over it.” 2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1;

As the earth was created and it’s preparations finished and the time arrived for God’s plan to be inaugurated, the mood among the hosts of heaven becomes one of anticipation and excitement. It is under these circumstance that the body for Adam is created and joined to his spirit and God commanded that Adam was to be honored for his role in inaugurating God’s plan upon the earth. Michael calls all the angels to honor Adam for what he is about to do. A seemingly “fed up” Lucifer arrives to the occasion with a bad attitude.

It is in such a context that later, the fallen Lucifer later explained to the fallen Adam : ..Michael brought you and made (us) honor you in the sight of God, and the Lord God said, ‘Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.’ And I answered, ‘I do not honor Adam.’ ...’Why do you compel me? I will not honor one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to honor me.’ .... When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to honor him. And Michael asserted, ‘Honor the image of God. But if now you will not honor, the Lord God will be wrathful with you.’ And I said, ‘If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 12: 1-2, 13:13, 14:2-3; 15:1-3)

As I’ve pointed out, there are multiple versions of this same story. In these early christian texts, the anger and frustration of Lucifer does not remain a private gripe, but becomes an open rebellion.

”... one from the order of the archangels deviated, together with the division that was under his authority. He thought up the impossible idea, that he might place his throne higher than the clouds which are above the earth, and that he might become equal to my power. 5 And I hurled him out from the height, together with his angels.” (2nd Enoch 29:3-5)

The Book of John the evangelist confirms Satan’s presumption in similar language “He set his seat above the clouds of heaven”. Bartholemew records this occurrence in almost the same words as the other versions : “I will set my throne over against his throne” (bar 4:55) ;

It is for carrying out the actual plan and organized attempt to “set up [his] throne above the stars of heaven and ..be like the Most High” that Lucifer was punished. (“Stars” was a euphamism for the greatest angels).

Speaking of Lucifer and the angels who allied with him the ancient psalm read : “Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it. Yet they know not that what they thought will recoil upon their own heads. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they.... (The Coptic Psalm-book - Let us worship the spirit of the paraclete) Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11)

This attempted “coup” would have divided heaven and created a rival Kingship over a rival group in heaven. It was an attempt to set up a rival administration with it’s own rival plan for man. This was no mere show of minor “disloyalty”. Also, one should note the doctrine that the father delegated the successful battle which overcame Lucifer “through the Word” (who was his son). The earthly Devil had undergone multiple prior perceived offenses as the pre-mortal Lucifer. AND, his memories of pre-mortal happenings were not “veiled” from him, as Adams came to be. Certain battle lines were drawn long, long ago.

It is in this larger set of contexts that it was said : “And the Rebel meditating these things Fol. 5b, col. 2 would not render obedience to God, and of his own free will he asserted his independence and separated himself from God. But he was - swept away out of heaven and fell, and the fall of himself and of all his company from heaven took place ...because he turned aside from the right way, ... he lost the apparel of his glory. And behold, from that time until the present day, he and all his hosts have been stripped of their apparel, (Cave of Treasures, chapt on “The Revolt of Satan”)

Once Lucifer finds himself and his fallen angels on the earth, his own recognition and understanding and sense of what he had done increased, but this recognition was not associated with remorse nor repentance, but rather with an obstinate resolve and desire and plan for revenge (and other motives) and for continuing his rebellion.

“..he fled from heaven; Satona, because his name was satanail. 5 In this way he became different from the angels. His nature did not change, (but) his thought did, since his consciousness of righteous and sinful things changed. And he became aware of his condemnation and of the sin which he sinned previously. 6 And that is why he thought up the scheme against Adam." (2nd Enoch 31:2-8, 32:1)

As one reviews the literature of Early Judaism and Christianity (and Islamic literature), I hope that it is clear that the early Christian doctrines and texts DID have a sensible concept of the origin of the Devil and for some of the underlying motives as to why Lucifer battles against God and God's plan for the moral education of those among mankind who are willing and wanting to live by the moral laws which will ultimately allow them to live in happiness and harmony. Compared to modern theories (or lack of theories), the ancient Jewish and Christian doctrines were, I think, more coherent and more logical than that of the later various Jewish and Christian movements.

Good luck in forming your own models as to what went on before creation and regarding the origin and motives of Satan/Lucifer/Iblis (etc) @Frank Goad

Clear
φυδρνεω

 

[nPeace]

When satan was made he was a good guy.And there was nobody around to make him rebel.If he didn't have anyone to tell him to go against God.Then why did he rebel in the first place? Sorry if I have asked this before.

Good question.
Answer : Ezekiel 28:15, 17

 

[Samael_Khan]

Sihr is a word for Persian/Islamic sorcery, or witchcraft. It's mostly associated with curses, but it's also associated with djinni summoning and worship. It's very similar to the medieval use of the word "witchcraft."

Good to know.

While that's true, I'm mostly interested in the demons of European occultism as anticosmic or Satanic manifestations, which narrows the field quite a bit.

Ah... OK. Good to know. What do you mean by "anticosmic"?

The Testament of Solomon wasn't originally Arabic, interestingly enough. It was written in Greek alongside early Christianity. The original story was about Solomon enslaving "evil" demons with the help of the archangel Michael.

I am not surprised. I think that many Quran stories originated from other scriptures or from stories that were travelling through the area.

I'd say the two major mistakes are viewing demons as subordinate to angels and viewing demons as interlaced with the material world. There's an excessive emphasis in Christian occultism that places demons and Satan as rulers of this world, who want mankind to abandon spirituality in favor of materialistic pursuits.

It is fascinating that Christian occultists see demons as subordinate to angels since they would be angels themselves.

In contrast, demons pushed me towards Gnosticism, which is essentially the exact opposite of that entire concept. You don't really get any more anti-materialist and pro-spirituality than Gnosticism. And in my experience, demons and angels have about the same level of power, but it all depends on the castor who interacts with them. The reason why Christian occultists tend to think angels are more powerful is because they're powerful occultists that call on several angels when faced with a single demon. You don't perform an exorcism by chasing away a demon with a crucifix, there's a reason why it's a long process that requires extensive blessings and prayers to a variety of different figures

In my experience, and this is probably controversial among Satanists, demons do hate humans (I mean, there's a reason the Temple of the Black Light were originally named the Misanthropic Luciferian Order). And they do tempt man into self-destructive behavior. Except they don't actually want us to give into their temptations, and their contempt for us is precisely because we're so easily corruptible. It's not so much that they're "jealous" as it is a disdain for our weakness. Due to that same hatred, they're willing to help whoever petitions them to overcome that weakness; they aren't entirely malevolent. They seem to have a lot of respect for people, no matter what background, who seek to better themselves. Some Christian occultists have noticed this, too, although many of them have not.

Demons also would never betray their own worshipers. Whether they love us or not, that's a different story, but they aren't stupid. You don't screw over your own allies. It doesn't make a lot of sense to build up an ally over a whole lifetime just to bench them and torture them for eternity, or undermine them on a deal. It's just not a viable long-term strategy.

Are demons cuddly fluff-bags who support Christian values? No. They're not base, mindlessly hateful creatures, either.

Your depiction of demons and their intent reminds me of the portrayal of Satan in Paradise Lost by John Milton.

 

[February-Saturday]

Good to know.

Ah... OK. Good to know. What do you mean by "anticosmic"?

"Anticosmic" is closely linked to the concept of anti-materialism, but on a larger order of magnitude. It's often portrayed as a malevolence towards the world or the flesh, but it can as easily refer to somebody who wants to cut off those baser parts of themselves.

Your depiction of demons and their intent reminds me of the portrayal of Satan in Paradise Lost by John Milton.

John Milton described much of Paradise Lost as inspired by visions that he received. Maybe there's more truth to it than most fictions. It did sort of set into motion the literary Satanism movement.

 

[Samael_Khan]

"Anticosmic" is closely linked to the concept of anti-materialism, but on a larger order of magnitude. It's often portrayed as a malevolence towards the world or the flesh, but it can as easily refer to somebody who wants to cut off those baser parts of themselves.

Sounds very much like the Gnostics viewpoint.

John Milton described much of Paradise Lost as inspired by visions that he received. Maybe there's more truth to it than most fictions. It did sort of set into motion the literary Satanism movement.

I did not know this at all with regards to him having visions. People at the time did criticise Milton because he placed Satan in a sympathetic light.