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Questions

Discussion in 'Invitation Only Debates' started by Terry Sampson, May 19, 2020.

  1. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Guilty as charged. But because the kid looks like me doesn't mean it's mine.
     
  2. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Yes.
    Perhaps I should attempt to define prophecy.

    Prophecy, called Nevuah (נבואה) in Hebrew means 'clear-sight', which denotes the ability some individuals attain through hard work to connect with God on the highest level possible (for a mortal, that is). The Navi, prophet, is first and foremost, an individual that can communicate with God during periods of active nevuah. After that, sometimes God will choose a navi, prophet, to go out and give messages from him to the people - usually Jews, but not just.

    The nevuah itself is not necessarily predicting the future.
    The nevuah itself is an abstract experience. The nevuot (plural of nevuah) written in the Tanach are the divinely-inspired interpretations of the prophet and his or her attempts to put that down in writing. The navi sees all sorts of visions and the level of his prophetic capabilities is defined by how well he can grasp what he's seeing and how well he can put that down on paper (or cowhide, in their case...). So for example, when a prophet says he saw angels with twelve wings, he didn't really see humanoid beings with twelve wings - that's just a metaphor to describe what he witnessed and experienced. The most well-known example is God's first prophecy to Jeremiah: Jeremiah is asked a few times: what do you see? And every answer symbolizes something that will happen in the future if Israel doesn't repent.
     
    #42 Harel13, May 20, 2020
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
  3. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    This touches on another "thing" (within the subject of "The nature of God, according to Judaism") that I've wanted to explore for a while.
    Ahhh, an irreconcilable difference. Finally! ;)
     
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  4. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    So you think Jesus knew what he was talking about?
     
  5. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Hey @rosends, if you're interested and willing to check out the thread and join in on the discussion, I'd be happy to hear your input, and in particular about what I wrote here:
     
  6. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    I do.
    For the record, I've been mulling my conjecture/hypothesis over and have pretty decided that,
    • if it's true that, in B.C.E. and first century C.E., Judaism viewed the Ruach ha-Kodesh as something similar to the JWs' notion of "God's active force", channeled--as it were--like/in the form of "tzinorot",
      • then it seems to me more probable that early non-Jewish Christians did all the changing of "a tube" or "pipe" into a hypostatic version/manifestation of God, distinctly different than the Sheckhina or the infinite, eternal HaShem.
    • In any case, you've given me enough to decide not to pursue the matter any further, in this thread or public.
    That brings me to a second topic on my mind: Noachidism, and a question.
    • By what authority, and roughly when, did Judaism concede that non-Jewish adoption of Noachide laws was an acceptable alternative to full conversion to Judaism (circumcision, and obedience to ritual and moral laws)?
    • And where is it written that the moral impurity of non-Jews that prevented intermarriage was abated by their acceptance of the Noachide laws?
     
    #46 Terry Sampson, May 21, 2020
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  7. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    I think this more up Rival's alley, but if you prefer, I can look into it.
     
  8. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Don't bother, then. Maybe I'll take my questions to Mi Yodeya.

    That brings me to my third and final topic. But I have to practice writing it up first, before raising the subject here.
     
  9. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    It never conceded anything; conversion to Judaism was never willed or encouraged with any sort of force. It HaShem wanted everyone to follow the Torah he would have given everyone the Torah. The Noachide Code was always the standard before the Torah for non-Jews and those who would become Jews. We see this when Cain is admonished for murder; when Noach is called righteous; when Sodom is destroyed; when Nineveh is rebuked (after Torah). Yet none of the things these people did, pre-Torah, that are prohibited by the Torah are punished; e.g., Jacob marrying two sisters at the same time. It's the opposite - the standard was raised for those in the Torah Covenant, not lowered for everyone else.

    Non-Jews cannot become impure otherwise we'd have purity laws.

    If you think this is inappropriately posted, I'll delete it.
     
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  10. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    I'll leave the issue of whether or not your post is inappropriately posted here up to the Moderators to decide.
    Whether or not you've accurately presented your argument may require a judgement from the Beth Din, because I read:
    • In Judaism
    • The doctrine of "inherited sin" is not found in most of mainstream Judaism. Although some in Orthodox Judaism place blame on Adam and Eve for overall corruption of the world, and though there were some Jewish teachers in Babylon[120] who believed that mortality was a punishment brought upon humanity on account of Adam's sin, that is not the dominant view in most of Judaism today. Modern Judaism generally teaches that humans are born sin-free and untainted, and choose to sin later and bring suffering to themselves.[121]

      Jewish theologians are divided in regard to the cause of what is called "original sin". Others teach that it was due to Adam's yielding to temptation in eating of the forbidden fruit and has been inherited by his descendants; the majority of chazalic opinions, however, do not hold Adam responsible for the sins of humanity,[122] teaching that, in Genesis 8:21 and 6:5-8, God recognized that Adam did not willfully sin. However, Adam is recognized by some[120] as having brought death into the world by his disobedience. Because of his sin, his descendants will live a mortal life, which will end in death of their bodies.[123] According to book Legends of the Jews, in Judgement Day, Adam will disavow any complaints of all men who accuse him as the cause of death of every human on earth. Instead, Adam will reproach their mortality because of their sins.[124]
      • B. Shabbat 145b-146a:
        • Rabbi Yoḥanan then explained to them: Why are gentiles ethically contaminated? It is because they did not stand on Mount Sinai. As when the snake came upon Eve, i.e., when it seduced her to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, it infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination remained in all human beings. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai, their contamination ceased, whereas gentiles did not stand at Mount Sinai, and their contamination never ceased. Rav Aḥa, the son of Rava, said to Rav Ashi: What about converts? How do you explain the cessation of their moral contamination? Rav Ashi said to him: Even though they themselves were not at Mount Sinai, their guardian angels were present, as it is written: “It is not with you alone that I make this covenant and this oath, but with he that stands here with us today before the Lord our God, and with he that is not here with us today” (Deuteronomy 29:13–14), and this includes converts
      • B. Yevamot 103b:
        • The Gemara answers: He implants filth in her and contaminates her, as her body accepts his semen. As Rabbi Yoḥanan also said, based on his understanding that the serpent seduced Eve into having sexual relations with him: When the serpent came upon Eve, he infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination remained in all human beings. When the Jewish people stood at Mount Sinai their contamination ceased, whereas with regard to gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai, their contamination never ceased.
      • B. Avodah Zarah 22b:
        • And if you wish, say instead: Even when he finds the wife, he also engages in bestiality with the animal, as the Master said: The animal of a Jew is more appealing to gentiles than their own wives, as Rabbi Yoḥanan says: At the time when the snake came upon Eve, at the time of the sin of her eating from the Tree of Knowledge, it infected her with moral contamination, and this contamination lingers in all human beings. The Gemara asks: If that is so, a Jew should also be suspected of engaging in bestiality. The Gemara answers: With regard to the Jewish people, who stood at Mount Sinai and received the Torah, their contamination ended, whereas in the case of gentiles, who did not stand at Mount Sinai and receive the Torah, their contamination has not ended.
    (To be continued)
     
  11. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I don't deal in Talmud. That's not my area. I'm also sure you hashed this out with Tumah at some point. The source itself says that this is not the dominant view though, so not sure why you're bringing this up? The idea of Eve having sex with the snake is not a dominant view, neither is the Christian like concept of OS.

    You do seem to have a fascination with Eve + serpent, though and I wonder why?
     
  12. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Neither is this thread, but you didn't that stop you, didja?
    Tumah was kind enough to support my suspicion that the Christian Doctrine of Original Sin has it's roots in the story of the defilement of Eve in Genesis, and that's all the "hashing out" that we did.
    The "source" you're refering to is wikipedia. That's somewhat less authoritative on what the dominant view is. The Talmud, which I quoted, is a tad bit more authoritative, even if I do say so myself. Why am I bringing this up? Are you asking me for a clue, ... finally?
    Forget the "sex with the snake" part, that's actually a minor detail as far as I'm concerned, even if I did "Woo-hoo" over that part way back when. It's the "moral contamination" that took place that got wiped off the slate of those who stood at Sinai that interests me. If the rabbis believed there was no moral contamination in the Garden, then why did they discuss it in the 2nd or 3rd century C.E. and why did they say that "the Gentiles" were still morally contaminated?
    Oh great! An ex-casual-Christian Noachide telling me that the Christian-like concept of Original Sin is not the dominant view in Judaism.... anymore.
    For an interloper, you're getting kind of fussy over what I'm interested in, IMHO. But who am I to whine, eh?
    Believe me, I'd have much rather have read a story about Adam and a female serpent or Lilith getting it on in the Garden, but I wasn't in charge of story-time back then.
     
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  13. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    Well, I won't continue if you don't want. I did ask you in my first post if you didn't want me to.
     
  14. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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  15. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    I'm calm, and I think I'm playing nice, too.
     
  16. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    I suggest you guys simply delete the last few posts and we'll continue on in peace.
     
  17. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    One of the reasons for not inviting you from the beginning is that I wanted input from an orthodox Jew because I haven't met one yet who couldn't find his way through the Talmuds, etc.
     
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  18. Rival

    Rival Ankh, Wedja, Seneb
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    I'm fine. I just assumed he was alright with it as I did footnote my post by asking if he were. He said leave it to the mods, and as I am a mod and he made no response to the effect that he didn't want me to post here I just continued. I was shocked at his latest reply, after that. I don't have any animosity!
     
  19. Harel13

    Harel13 Nin-Jew Master
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    Excellent, no animosity, people. Now we're getting somewhere. I may have a future in negotiations. (and someone actually hinted I'm some sort of warmonger. Bah! :))
     
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  20. Terry Sampson

    Terry Sampson Well-Known Member

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    Hardly. Mods have to ding you before you get that boy scout badge. And you don't get an eagle scout badge until you've been banned for some period of time.

    So, can you tell me, in light of my quotes from the Talmud, in my post #50, whether or not my initial questions regarding my second topic make sense, or shall we leave the matter where I proposed leaving it in my post #46?
     
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