Questions about literal truth in the scriptures

[Jim]

If it didn't happen the way it is told, then what good is the allegory? In the Bible the allegory only has value if what it is based upon is true. To say Abraham's sons didn't really need to have two separate mothers, but it makes for a more meaningful point to say he did, is pointless. The fact that the account of Ishmael and Isaac is true gives weight to the allegory itself. Gives weight to the truthfulness of what the allegory is representing.

If one removes portions of the Bible, alluding to them as allegory, or myth, they create gaps that cannot be filled, so the entire Bible would be myth and allegory - including Jesus's birth, ministry, death, and resurrection.
Yet, we know that Jesus started a ministry on earth, which continues today, and his people know that he still directs that work by spirit.
They know he lives.

Jewish practice today is evidence of continued tradition.
Christian practice today is also traditional, of historical events.

I’m seeing a possible value now in some people believing that the stories actually happened in the material world exactly as they are described. There would be more motivation to pass them on to following generations, exactly as they received them.

Even if the stories are true in that way, and even if it’s important for some people to know that, I still think that many people can receive the gift of faith and become followers of Jesus even if they don’t believe that any of those stories are true in that way.

 

[nPeace]

I don’t know. What are your answers to those questions?

That's my point.
How would one who takes Genesis as allegory or myth, answer such questions?
One can only answer these questions by taking the Genesis account literally.
That's why if one discards the Genesis account as myth or allegory, then the accounts of Jesus and his apostles are meaningless.
It's equivalent to throwing away salvation.

 

[nPeace]

That’s what I think too. That says very well what I think, maybe better than I could have said it myself.

I didn't understand you apparently. I thought you were of the view that the accounts were not real or literal events.

 

[nPeace]

Oh. I see it now. Some animals before Adam, and some after. That’s very helpful. I missed that the first time through.

That could be about the domestication of animals.

Verse 24 speaks of domestic animals, before man was created. I can't say what kinds were made after, since the Bible doesn't say, and I don't want to speculate.

 

[nPeace]

I’m not thinking that everything in the Bible stories about Israel actually happened in the material world exactly as it is described in those stories. I am thinking that God uses history as a method of revelation, and that the stories about Israel were pointing to a future reality.

Do you see it as history? Then you see it as real. Or perhaps I'm not following you.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I’m not thinking that everything in the Bible stories about Israel actually happened in the material world exactly as it is described in those stories. I am thinking that God uses history as a method of revelation, and that the stories about Israel were pointing to a future reality.

But if it didn't really happen, then God is not using history. He is just making up stories. I view 'history' as the actual record of what happened.

If you don't believe the history in the Bible is true, why do you believe it is from God?


Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I’m seeing a possible value now in some people believing that the stories actually happened in the material world exactly as they are described. There would be more motivation to pass them on to following generations, exactly as they received them.

Even if the stories are true in that way, and even if it’s important for some people to know that, I still think that many people can receive the gift of faith and become followers of Jesus even if they don’t believe that any of those stories are true in that way.

But why would you believe in Jesus Christ if the record of Him as told in the Bible is not true?

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[Jim]

Do you see it as history? Then you see it as real. Or perhaps I'm not following you.

But if it didn't really happen, then God is not using history. He is just making up stories. I view 'history' as the actual record of what happened.

If you don't believe the history in the Bible is true, why do you believe it is from God?


Good-Ole-Rebel

But why would you believe in Jesus Christ if the record of Him as told in the Bible is not true?

Good-Ole-Rebel

It might take dozens or hundreds of posts for me to explain it fully, but in some ways I think of it as being like a historical novel, inspired by God, I don’t mean “inspired” in the sense of direct revelation. I can’t find words to explain what I mean.

In some novels that I’ve read that were written as if they were true stories, some chapters were written as journal entries, some as personal letters, some as news articles, and in some other ways. The way I think of the Bible is something like that.

I think of the story of the exodus as being real, but not in all its details. For example, I’ve seen a theory that it didn’t happen all at once, and I think of that as possibly being true. I think of the plagues and the dividing of the waters as being metaphorical. Not that I think that any of it couldn’t have happened literally.

I think of the gospel stories as possibly being stories that were originally told or compiled by people with those names. I think of Jesus as a real person, and what the gospels say he said being more or less what He actually said.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It might take dozens or hundreds of posts for me to explain it fully, but in some ways I think of it as being like a historical novel, inspired by God, I don’t mean “inspired” in the sense of direct revelation. I can’t find words to explain what I mean.

In some novels that I’ve read that were written as if they were true stories, some chapters were written as journal entries, some as personal letters, some as news articles, and in some other ways. The way I think of the Bible is something like that.

I think of the story of the exodus as being real, but not in all its details. For example, I’ve seen a theory that it didn’t happen all at once, and I think of that as possibly being true. I think of the plagues and the dividing of the waters as being metaphorical. Not that I think that any of it couldn’t have happened literally.

I think of the gospel stories as possibly being stories that were originally told or compiled by people with those names. I think of Jesus as a real person, and what the gospels say he said being more or less what He actually said.

Of course anyone can view the Bible however they like. But it is not written as fiction. It is written as historical, and true.

But, again, if it is fiction, then the God and Christ it proclaims is equally fiction. Which means I wouldn't waste my time.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[nPeace]

It might take dozens or hundreds of posts for me to explain it fully, but in some ways I think of it as being like a historical novel, inspired by God, I don’t mean “inspired” in the sense of direct revelation. I can’t find words to explain what I mean.

In some novels that I’ve read that were written as if they were true stories, some chapters were written as journal entries, some as personal letters, some as news articles, and in some other ways. The way I think of the Bible is something like that.

I think of the story of the exodus as being real, but not in all its details. For example, I’ve seen a theory that it didn’t happen all at once, and I think of that as possibly being true. I think of the plagues and the dividing of the waters as being metaphorical. Not that I think that any of it couldn’t have happened literally.

I think of the gospel stories as possibly being stories that were originally told or compiled by people with those names. I think of Jesus as a real person, and what the gospels say he said being more or less what He actually said.

I think I understand.
In today's world, with so much opposition to, and rebellion against God and the Bible, especially with modern expert opinions that are pushing people towards a materialistic view, and away from spirituality, it is easy for people to become doubtful, and even confused about what many once considered valuable. Added to that, the corruption, and immorality in religion, that's become widespread in the media, has raised distrust in religious leaders. So...

I think though that confusion is reduced, when one studies the Bible, and gets to know for themselves, what they believe to be the truth, rather than allow "expert" opinions to influence their views.
I think when one really studies the Bible, they get to understand that we are deep in the Revelation given to John, and Chapter 12, is real, so what we are really seeing is a fulfillment. Verse 9 particularly, is noteworthy.

This is an added reason, why I know the Bible is revealing reality, from start to finish. We are seeing the foretold future become history, and it is only so because of the history, from Genesis - the beginning.
For me, there is no question.

 

[Hawkins]

NOTE: The original title if this thread was “If you believe in one creation story as history and not the other...”

In one creation story God creates Adam after the animals, and in another He creates Adam before the animals. If you think that one of those stories is what actually, physically happened less than 10,000 years ago, but not the other story, what do you think about the other story? For example, do you think it’s an allegory?

If you don’t think that way yourself, but you’ve seen or heard an answer to that question from someone who does, I would be glad for you to post it.

It's a matter of perspectives. Humans sometimes sort things out by perspectives. The 1st creation is the sequence. The 2nd creation is about how animals are created for the sake of humans.

For something similar, in one chapter it is said God hardened Pharaoh's heart while in another it says Pharaoh hardened his own heart. It's from the perspective of God's absolute sovereignty that it can be said that God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

 

[Jim]

For discussion purposes let’s say that all the stories in the Bible are literally true, whatever that means to you. I’m saying that even if that’s true, a person doesn’t need to know that, to receive the gift of faith and become a follower of Jesus.

 

[nPeace]

For discussion purposes let’s say that all the stories in the Bible are literally true, whatever that means to you. I’m saying that even if that’s true, a person doesn’t need to know that, to receive the gift of faith and become a follower of Jesus.

We can discuss from that perspective, I guess.

(Romans 15:4) For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

(1 Corinthians 10:11) Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

(2 Peter 1:19) So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts.

These scriptures were written by the apostles.
What they evidently are saying, is that the reason we have what is written in the Hebrew scriptures - evidently by God's will, is that we may be instructed about God's ways; his dealings; his purpose, so that we might benefit.

Is that what you get from reading those texts?
Actually, for me, knowing the past, especially in relation to God's purpose, and seeing his will unfold, is what has strengthened my faith in his promises.
Had it not been for the Hebrew scriptures, I'm not sure the Greek scriptures alone would have had that impact.

In fact, one of the strongest evidences to me, is fulfilled prophecy... which the Hebrew scriptures are packed with, and seeing the fulfillment is amazing. It boosts my conference in future promises mentioned in the Greek scriptures.

Another point.
Without the Hebrew scriptures... particularly Genesis, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel... Revelation would be a closed book.
Now it's opened.

What are your thoughts on these?

 

[Jim]

We can discuss from that perspective, I guess.

(Romans 15:4) For all the things that were written beforehand were written for our instruction, so that through our endurance and through the comfort from the Scriptures we might have hope.

(1 Corinthians 10:11) Now these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have come.

(2 Timothy 3:16, 17) All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.

(2 Peter 1:19) So we have the prophetic word made more sure, and you are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place (until day dawns and a daystar rises) in your hearts.

These scriptures were written by the apostles.
What they evidently are saying, is that the reason we have what is written in the Hebrew scriptures - evidently by God's will, is that we may be instructed about God's ways; his dealings; his purpose, so that we might benefit.

Not only, we have those scriptures by God’s will, but also those things happened by God’s will so that we would have those scriptures.

Is that what you get from reading those texts?

Yes.

Actually, for me, knowing the past, especially in relation to God's purpose, and seeing his will unfold, is what has strengthened my faith in his promises.

Many times in my study of the gospels I’ve seen examples of Him alluding to passages in the Hebrew scriptures that I hadn’t noticed before. That reinforces my feeling that His actual words have been fairly well presented.

Had it not been for the Hebrew scriptures, I'm not sure the Greek scriptures alone would have had that impact.

I agree.

In fact, one of the strongest evidences to me, is fulfilled prophecy... which the Hebrew scriptures are packed with, and seeing the fulfillment is amazing. It boosts my conference in future promises mentioned in the Greek scriptures.

Not only prophecies. The words of Jesus are packed with meanings that can only be understood with knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures.

 

[nPeace]

Not only, we have those scriptures by God’s will, but also those things happened by God’s will so that we would have those scriptures.

Yes.

Many times in my study of the gospels I’ve seen examples of Him alluding to passages in the Hebrew scriptures that I hadn’t noticed before. That reinforces my feeling that His actual words have been fairly well presented.

I agree.

Not only prophecies. The words of Jesus are packed with meanings that can only be understood with knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures.

I'm glad we agree.

 

[sooda]

That's my point.
How would one who takes Genesis as allegory or myth, answer such questions?
One can only answer these questions by taking the Genesis account literally.
That's why if one discards the Genesis account as myth or allegory, then the accounts of Jesus and his apostles are meaningless.
It's equivalent to throwing away salvation.

I posted an interesting lesson on the "words" of Genesis yesterday on the flood story in particular, but someone seemed to think it was an advertisement.

Looking at the words makes sense to me.

Like "firmament".

What Does Firmament Mean? Bible Definition and Meaning
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/firmament
Firmament [N] from the Vulgate firmamentum, which is used as the translation of the Hebrew raki'a . This word means simply "expansion.". It denotes the space or expanse like an arch appearing immediately above us. They who rendered raki'a by firmamentum regarded it as a solid body.

 

[sooda]

Not only, we have those scriptures by God’s will, but also those things happened by God’s will so that we would have those scriptures.

Yes.

Many times in my study of the gospels I’ve seen examples of Him alluding to passages in the Hebrew scriptures that I hadn’t noticed before. That reinforces my feeling that His actual words have been fairly well presented.

I agree.

Not only prophecies. The words of Jesus are packed with meanings that can only be understood with knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures.

The stories were redacted and amended many, many times. Prophecy was usually written after the fact or altered to refer to some more recent event. Daniel is based on a popular character in a Syrian poem that dates to about 1500 BC, but the Book of Daniel was written as encouragement to the Jewish people about 167 BC during the reign of Antiochus IV .. Its a history not a prophecy.

 

[Jim]

What I’m saying now is that even if all the stories in the Bible are literally true in whatever way anyone thinks they are, it’s possible sometimes for a person to receive the gift of faith and follow Jesus, without believing that.

Does anyone have any more thoughts about that?

 

[sooda]

What I’m saying now is that even if all the stories in the Bible are literally true in whatever way anyone thinks they are, it’s possible sometimes for a person to receive the gift of faith and follow Jesus, without believing that.

Does anyone have any more thoughts about that?

I think the "truth" is evident without supernatural myths.

Aesop's Fables were written about the same time (650 BC) and there is truth in them even knowing that animals don't talk.

 

[Jim]

I forgot what forum this is in. Sorry!

Another question, for people who think that all the stories in the Bible are literally true, does that apply to all the parables of Jesus?