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Featured Question to Atheists: Living for here and now or living for a place with God in the next.

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by Link, Jan 17, 2022.

  1. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    There are many ranks in this world, from prestige, reputation, richness, career, etc.

    The Quran argues the variance in ranks in the next world are even bigger but those depend on our deeds and faith and state we die in.

    Let's take away fear of hell for one moment. Say everyone enters paradise.

    To me, even this was the case, because this are chance to attain rank with God, and prove ourselves to Him, we shouldn't live for just temporary moments, but for God and the Next World.

    We should try to attain as much as possible speed in traveling towards God and ascending to him.

    Now the fact is, since, preferring temporary pleasures and gains, over God and next, aside from that usually those pleasures are based on intoxication from Iblis' magic, but say it was not a falsehood and had truth. Just from the viewpoint that God is better and more lasting in reward, makes such a decision to choose this world over God so evil, an act of great insolence towards God, that he does merit his wrath in the next world.

    So how foolish is it given missing out on reward from God and not racing towards ranks that remain and reward and relationship with God that is everlasting, for temporary gains, and but how more so with the threat of fire.

    Why choose this world? The Quran shows it comes out of one thing and one thing only. People doubt God and next world.

    Take away that doubt, and people would choose God and next world.

    So why doesn't God just remove doubt off everyone?

    To me this is the trial. Evil deeds build up uncleanness, the uncleanness is that disquiet doubt. However, we can slay it. We can slay the darkness within.

    The moment a soul decides to slay the disquiet doubt with reason, is the moment it sees God clearly.

    There is also the leap of faith one can take, and talk to who they believe would be God's representatives. In this case, they can also cleanse us of the dark murk and destroy the doubt, by connecting with us and connecting us to God and making us see the light and higher realms.

    This method might seem impossible, but in fact, it's practical. People can doubt at various degrees but know which religion would be truth if God existed. Then you take a leap of faith and ask the interceders to intervene on your path and help you by God's permission.

    God should also be prayed to even if one doesn't know for sure he exists.


    My question to atheists or people who doubt God, have you tried reaching out to Mohammad (s) and his family (a) and asking God to intercede on your path through them appearing as light? Or do you find this impossible to sincerely do as long as you doubt God? If so, please explain why.
     
  2. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    No.

    No. I just find no practical purpose in doing so. Aham Brahmasmi. Why would I have need to reach out to a deity for any reason other than desire or attachment?
     
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  3. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    God is the best reward, power comes from him, higher ranks are attained with respect to him in the next world.

    He is the best being to prove yourself to and to get to know. And we all die and so this world reputation and ranks go out the window and become forgotten.

    So those are among reasons to live for God.

    But I'm saying - people can't live for God if they doubt him. So why not reach out to God to remove the doubt. And why not research religions and take a bet with the more rational one, and try to seek an intermediation through it's chosen ones as well and ask God to intervene and remove the doubt?
     
  4. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    Now you're just proselytizing. God may be the best reward for you. You may have need to prove yourself to God. You may need to live for God. That doesn't mean everyone else does.

    Stop telling others how to live or what to believe.
     
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  5. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I'm trying to understand your viewpoint. Attacking me and my question (gave it context) doesn't help :(.
     
  6. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No.

    I was Christian until mid teens but left, really because of Christians.
    The area i lived, although only a few miles from three towns with hight Muslim populations, had no Muslims close by so i never even heard of Allah or Mohamed until several years after i became atheiest. I truly saw and see no point in grasping at religious straws.

    See above
     
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  7. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    Feigning an attack doesn't help your cause.

    I don't believe you were trying to understand anything I said in my initial response in this thread given your preachy response. You were just telling me that I should believe as you do.
     
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  8. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Okay, so from what I take it, if you would believe in God, would be a Deist? So don't find Messengers plausible?
     
  9. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You asked why should we want to pray to God. This is was in the OP but I repeated in short form.

    I don't understand the mindset of putting bets all in this world. This is what I'm trying to understand from how Atheists explain it.
     
  10. SalixIncendium

    SalixIncendium Veteran Member
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    Why do you assume that just because someone lacks belief in a deity that they've placed all bets in this world?
     
  11. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    You bring a good point. The ranks with God and drawing close to him is what is the higher ranks are about.

    But you bring a good point. A person can say, I don't know God exists, but I'll do my best to be as good person as possible and do my best to be honest with myself about proof of God if he exists.

    Since they believe they are honest, they maybe believe God will reward them IF he exists.

    And they can put all bets for next world.

    I'm not sure if this really happens in practical terms. But you do bring a good point.
     
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  12. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    No, i wouldn't believe in gods in the same way I don't believe in Santa Claus, leprechauns, invisible pink unicorns etc. And just like Santa Claus, leprechauns and invisible pink unicorns i would not i would not ask any, including your god belief or anyone elses god belief for help.
     
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  13. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    So you find it impossible to reach out to God because you find him as unknowable and in same category of invisible unicorns? I would say there is notable difference, for sure unicorns aren't going to judge you after death. But he being what would have created you and judge you after death, you should even if see him as this implausible, reach out to him.
     
  14. ChristineM

    ChristineM "Be strong" I whispered to my coffee.
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    Again no, i find it bloody stupid to reach out to "reach out" to Santa Claus, leprechauns, invisible pink unicorns and gods because there is no evidence for their existence.

    What makes you so sure a god exists to judge you after death?

    My view is, you die, consciousness dies with you, what is left is mostly organic molecules, atoms... That will eventually wind up helping to create something else. A plant, a bird, another human being... In this way we are all made of dead people.

    In the far reaches of time when this world is annihilated the atoms that are me may help to form another sun or world.

    And the thing is, to have evidence, hard, fact to tell me this is the reality of what will happen. The 1stnlaw of thermodynamics.
     
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  15. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    Oh okay, so it feels silly because you don't find proof/evidence of God. That's why you won't do it.

    Understood.
     
  16. Nimos

    Nimos Well-Known Member

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    I haven't tried praying to Mohammad, when I were younger I did try to pray to God just in a general, before I had an interest in religion, so knew very little about the differences, there was just God really :) but little did it help, those I prayed for still died. One could obviously argue that I weren't sincere or did it wrong etc. But regardless of that, I think there is enough people who have been in worse situations and probably prayed for their own lives and others, while being "true" believers and it doesn't seem they had anymore luck than me, it simply doesn't seem to work from what I can see.

    So I don't think anyone can pray to God, Mohammad, Jesus or whoever, regardless of whether they are sincere or not and get anything out of it, in a supernatural sense. I do think mentally that people can get something out of believing it and that it might have a positive effect for those people individually. But I don't think that it will have any effect besides on a personal level.
     
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  17. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    So you think we should live our lives based on the expectation of reward instead of, say, ethics?

    I think you overestimate the importance of your religion.

    If you get personal benefit from it, fine, but in the end, it's just another religion, no more special than any other.

    Your religion - like any religion - is optional.

    I inagine that the answer is a lot like the answer why you haven't bothered - I assume - to really look into the Yoruba traditional religion in depth.
     
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  18. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I see what you mean. You believe it's to close to placebo to be testable on a personal level?
     
  19. Link

    Link Well-Known Member
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    I don't think those are mutually exclusive.
     
  20. 9-10ths_Penguin

    9-10ths_Penguin 1/10 Subway Stalinist
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    Your OP gave a different impression.
     
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