Question for trinitarian christians

[Lucian]

You are referring to "con-substantial with us accoridng to mankind"?

Yes I am.

 

[Scuba Pete]

The question is specifically to "Trinitarian Christians" and it amazes me how many who believe differently are trying to answer this. Although the word "trinity" is never used in Scriptures, I find it useful to represent a seeming illogical relationship. No, the relationship is not TRULY illogical, for God is a God of logic... it's just a bit our of our ken, so God has described as best he can for our feeble minds to comprehend. After all, if we understood as God does, we would then be God.

As for the passage, it appears that God talks to himself, or parts of himself as I find myself doing from time to time. I over-extended my knee as I was getting into Alexander Springs yesterday for a dive. It hurt to the point of distraction, and as I was trying to extricate myself from the basin, I distinctly said: "Leg, don't fail me now!" I am certain that my leg had no clue of our unique relationship, and yet it did it's best to do it's part. Although it griped a bit on the LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG walk back to the truck, I was well pleased with it at that juncture.

 

[Ronald]

And if you are wrong! Will you ask him where is the rest of you? LOL

Follows logicly. Doesn't it?

 

[Elessar]

By your reasoning, every human should be referred to as God.

No, I just reject that the "son of G-d" is a title merely for the Messiah. For example, Lukah attributes Adam as "the son of G-d" (Lukah 3:38) in his account of the Messiah, while he is clearly not the Messiah or G-d. Messiah himself taught, "How blessed are those who make peace! for they will be called sons of G-d." (Mattityahu 5:9). And, in Jewish thought, "sons of G-d" is commonly used to refer to humanity as a whole.

 

[IF_u_knew]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

I am not a trinitarian christian but I was raised by parents who were and still are, so I hope you do not mind me offering my view.

I believe in one G.d because it is that simple. There is only One. I have spent so much time frustrated, broken, and unable to come to grips with this view that seemed so obviously opposed to what G.d said (including when He proclaimed Himself as the only Saviour). I spent so much time crying out to understand why I could not feel comfortable in the view that I had been taught and was quite shocked when the understanding came.. more by the fact that I was answered, because the answer came right at the time that I felt on the verge of thinking I would never understand.

I guess we could start in John 3 since that is the chapter that so many in trinitarian churches will use to support their belief.

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

This is speaking of the Word of the Lord that spoke from the mouth of Jesus, the prophet.

We see that he was not the only one with whom the Word of the Lord used. Ezekiel and Daniel are both referred as such. The difference (this being merely speculation on my part) would be that once the Word of the Lord entered into his mouth, it remained there until his mission was completed; whereas with the others, as is obvious by the Son of man vs. son of man reference, the Word left their mouth.

John 3: 16 For G.d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...
The fact that he specifically references the world with relation to the begotten Son yet refers to himself as the Son of man was what I could not understand until my eyes fell upon Ezekiel 16 which identifies the begotten Son:

3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
4And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
7I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
9Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.



This understanding was further developing in my heart when I fell on Hosea 11: 1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

Even further when I found this site shortly after this and saw one of the posters speaking of this as well. That was quite the confirmation considering.

Exodus 4: 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

So, while Jesus may have been the beloved Son, that does not mean that he alone was the only begotten Son of G.d.

Also notice that He anointed His Son as is shown in Ezekiel.

This makes more sense (perfect, to be exact) to me than all the other explanations that are being given in churches.

 

[Ronald]

There is one small difference in son of God/nation(chosen) and the only begotten son of God/Yeshua/savior!

 

[Danilo T. Aungon]

All Christian Churches strongly keep 'ONE GOD DOCTRINE' If they continue to spouse another Doctrine of having father a God, son another God, and Holy Spirit, the trhird God and to maintain the original doctrine they make it one. Three persons one god.

 

[Muffled]

I see it as the only way to explain what seems to be a contradiction in the scriptures, which cannot be -

1. From reading the Messianic texts, it seems that there are multiple types of G-d, the ones implied being "G-d the Father" "G-d the Son" and "G-d the Holy Spirit".

2. However, in the Torah, it is explicitly stated, that Hear, Israel, Hashem our G-d, Hashem is One, and this concept is not only confirmed but strengthened in the Messianic texts. Absolutely, then, G-d is a single entity.

I come to the conclusion, therefore, that G-d is absolutely a single entity. There is one G-d, who is unchanging. However, we, as imperfect humans, perceive him in different ways. Thus, the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", are all that same, one G-d, without any change; the only difference between them is merely in human perception thereof, since G-d is absolutely one. After all, there is at least one other example of G-d taking human form, outside the context of the Messianic texts and Yeshua -

Hashem appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to his tent at the heat of the day. [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant."...[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The men turned away from there and went toward S'dom, but Avraham remained standing before Hashem...[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The two came to S'dom that evening, when Lot was sitting at the gate of S'dom. Lot saw them, got up to greet them and prostrated himself on the ground. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]B'resheet 18:1-3, 22; 19:1[/FONT]

I don't know what text you are reading but there is only one true God. If you want to talk about little gods that is fine but they are all subserviant to God. So those little gods could be construed as types of gods becaause they don't measure up to the one true God. The Son and the Paraclete did not exist in the OT except as prophecy of things to come.

 

[Elessar]

I don't know what text you are reading but there is only one true God. If you want to talk about little gods that is fine but they are all subserviant to God. So those little gods could be construed as types of gods becaause they don't measure up to the one true God. The Son and the Paraclete did not exist in the OT except as prophecy of things to come.

I said, "it seems", I never said, "there are".

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

This is how I understand this...

Jesus is one in substance with humanity [in the universal]. Not one with us in substance as individuals.

In other words, he is fully human and made of the human substance, not a substance merely similar. He, as a particular person, is also one in substance with the divinity- fully divine in the total meaning of that word- not a like or similar substance to the divinity.

Thus he is the true mediator between man and God because in him alone the two substances [humanity and divinity] exist as one.

Our individual substance [whatever underlies us as an individual] has access to Christ because he is composed of the substance which underlies the both of our individual substances. [a sub-substance?]

Thus when I, as an individual, reach Christ via the common substance that we both share [humanity], I am able to be united to the divine substance.

It seems to me that we should affirm that human beings are, in fact, ontologically one at a certain level: we all have a single, universal nature and each individual participates in a universal substance. This substance is not our individuality, but supports it. I would say this oneness is represented to us in Adam and is vital to what we mean by Original Sin.

 

[Katzpur]

So, while Jesus may have been the beloved Son, that does not mean that he alone was the only begotten Son of G.d.

But the word "only" means what it says. It means that Jesus alone was God's begotten Son. How could it possibly have meant anything else?

On the other hand, Hebrews 12:9 refers to God as the "father of spirits," and Acts 17:28 refers to us as "his offspring." I believe that He is the Father of the spirits of each and every one of us and that we are His spirit offspring, His sons and daughters. But we have two mortal parents. Jesus had only one: Mary. His other parent was God. Thus, He was God's "Only Begotten Son."

 

[IF_u_knew]

But the word "only" means what it says. It means that Jesus alone was God's begotten Son. How could it possibly have meant anything else?

On the other hand, Hebrews 12:9 refers to God as the "father of spirits," and Acts 17:28 refers to us as "his offspring." I believe that He is the Father of the spirits of each and every one of us and that we are His spirit offspring, His sons and daughters. But we have two mortal parents. Jesus had only one: Mary. His other parent was God. Thus, He was God's "Only Begotten Son."

Jesus had two parents. He was a man and not exempt from the laws of nature. Man breaks laws.. not G.d.

Did you know that the trick of magicians is not pulling something out of thin air? The trick is getting people to focus on an image to control their mind and what they believe through (by) that image. When the serpent tempted Eve, what did he say would be opened?

Ezekiel 24: 24- 27 If the Son of man was here, would you know him or would you still be looking up to the sky waiting on a man named Jesus (Yeshua)? Do you trust man or trust G.d?

The begotten Son of G.d is Israel. This declaration is there in front of your eyes as much as it is in front of my eyes. I guess it all depends on where your mind's focus is

 

[crystalonyx]

"God is a God of logic.."

Someone please explain the logic of the trinity to me.

 

[Katzpur]

Jesus had two parents. He was a man and not exempt from the laws of nature.

Whatever. I guess we're at an impasse on this point.

 

[Muffled]

"God is a God of logic.."

Someone please explain the logic of the trinity to me.

God does say "come let us reason together."

Your request lacks substance (it is too general). A general request is going to get you a general answer.

There is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. If you can count you will see that makes three which is what trinity means: a collection of three.

 

[Muffled]

I am not a trinitarian christian but I was raised by parents who were and still are, so I hope you do not mind me offering my view.

I believe in one G.d because it is that simple. There is only One. I have spent so much time frustrated, broken, and unable to come to grips with this view that seemed so obviously opposed to what G.d said (including when He proclaimed Himself as the only Saviour). I spent so much time crying out to understand why I could not feel comfortable in the view that I had been taught and was quite shocked when the understanding came.. more by the fact that I was answered, because the answer came right at the time that I felt on the verge of thinking I would never understand.

I guess we could start in John 3 since that is the chapter that so many in trinitarian churches will use to support their belief.

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

This is speaking of the Word of the Lord that spoke from the mouth of Jesus, the prophet.

We see that he was not the only one with whom the Word of the Lord used. Ezekiel and Daniel are both referred as such. The difference (this being merely speculation on my part) would be that once the Word of the Lord entered into his mouth, it remained there until his mission was completed; whereas with the others, as is obvious by the Son of man vs. son of man reference, the Word left their mouth.

John 3: 16 For G.d so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son...
The fact that he specifically references the world with relation to the begotten Son yet refers to himself as the Son of man was what I could not understand until my eyes fell upon Ezekiel 16 which identifies the begotten Son:

3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.
4And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
5None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.
6And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.
7I have caused thee to multiply as the bud of the field, and thou hast increased and waxen great, and thou art come to excellent ornaments: thy breasts are fashioned, and thine hair is grown, whereas thou wast naked and bare.
8Now when I passed by thee, and looked upon thee, behold, thy time was the time of love; and I spread my skirt over thee, and covered thy nakedness: yea, I sware unto thee, and entered into a covenant with thee, saith the Lord GOD, and thou becamest mine.
9Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.



This understanding was further developing in my heart when I fell on Hosea 11: 1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

Even further when I found this site shortly after this and saw one of the posters speaking of this as well. That was quite the confirmation considering.

Exodus 4: 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

So, while Jesus may have been the beloved Son, that does not mean that he alone was the only begotten Son of G.d.

Also notice that He anointed His Son as is shown in Ezekiel.

This makes more sense (perfect, to be exact) to me than all the other explanations that are being given in churches.

The Word is God and has become flesh (in Jesus). This can never be said of the prophets. They received the Word but they were never the Word themselves.

 

[Truid]

Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.


So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.

Ok, so they are not the same person. You haven't proven anything against Trinitarians. Maybe Oneness Pentecostals but not Trinitarians.

 

[Truid]

As I understand it you and I(or Jesus) would be two persons of similar substance.

That is what Arias' group taught. "that Christ was a "similar substance" (homoiousios) as the Father."

Orthodox Christianity teaches "that the Son is "of the same substance" (ὁμοούσιος) as the Father." Notice the difference between being just "similar" and being the "same".

In A.D. 325, the First Council of Nicaea debated the denotations of the Greek words homoousios (same substance) and homoiousios (similar substance). Ousia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Truid]

But the word "only" means what it says. It means that Jesus alone was God's begotten Son. How could it possibly have meant anything else?

On the other hand, Hebrews 12:9 refers to God as the "father of spirits," and Acts 17:28 refers to us as "his offspring." I believe that He is the Father of the spirits of each and every one of us and that we are His spirit offspring, His sons and daughters. But we have two mortal parents. Jesus had only one: Mary. His other parent was God. Thus, He was God's "Only Begotten Son."

While you may interpret these passages to say that God is our literal Father (in the sense that we were all born first as spirits in the first estate) I don't believe Hebrews 12:9 is making that connection. Rather, a better cross reference would be Numbers 16:22 and Numbers 27:16.

As far as Acts 17:28 goes Paul was quoting Aratus, a third-century b.c. Greek poet. I don't believe Paul was trying to justify or say this quote was gospel truth. Rather, Paul employs this method of reasoning, especially with his Greek audience.

 

[sojourner]

The begotten Son of G.d is Israel. This declaration is there in front of your eyes as much as it is in front of my eyes.

That interpretation falls more into the catagory of wishful thinking. Most reputable exegets would place the meaning of that phrase as heard by Jesus, directed to Jesus, about Jesus.