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Question for trinitarian christians

A

avalon

New Member
Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.
 
Breathe

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Hi and welcome! Nice to see you here.

I'm not a Christian, let alone a Trinitarian (I personally find the idea strange) - but generally a Trinitarian Christian one would be able to see the Trinity within that. Some may see that within those three passages there is The Holy Spirit descending onto the Son - "thereby" showing that the two are united as well as showing Jesus' divinity.

I am curious as to ask - why did you choose to use the King James Version, as opposed to another translation such as the more common, New International Version?
avalon said:
So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.
Click to expand...

Some who believe in the Father AND the Son AND the Holy Spirit believe in them as three separate personages, i.e., the Mormons. :)
 
A

avalon

New Member
Well, I use the king james version because i am mormon and that is the version we use. Also because I personally think some of the symbolic meaning might have been lost in the newer versions. Its really just a preference for me, but my church claims the king james version is the most accurate.

And I could see how trinitarians could interpret the spirit of god as not a conscious being, something like "the spirit of christmas". But the voice from heaven, the third passage, is what really gets me. Why would he refer to himself as his own son?
 
Elessar

Elessar

Well-Known Member
avalon said:
Well, I use the king james version because i am mormon and that is the version we use. Also because I personally think some of the symbolic meaning might have been lost in the newer versions. Its really just a preference.

And I could see how trinitarians could interpret the spirit of god as not a conscious being, something like "the spirit of christmas". But the voice from heaven, the third passage, is what really gets me. Why would he refer to himself as his own son?
Click to expand...

Can you think of any good reason why he shouldn't refer to himself in human form as his own son? Every human is his child.

Then again, I am not a trinitarian. I am a modalist.
 
Mister Emu

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.
Click to expand...
Confused here... what is the problem with this passage for Trinitarians?

Incase you didn't know, the Trinity is, roughly in english, three persons in one being...
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Mister Emu said:
Confused here... what is the problem with this passage for Trinitarians?

Incase you didn't know, the Trinity is, roughly in english, three persons in one being...
Click to expand...

I have to laugh. If the definition were three human beings then there are not three human beings present.

If the definition is spirit then Eph 4:4 kicks in "there is one body and one spirit."

As for the presence of the trinity ostensibly existing in different places ie. Jesus, the dove and the voice, the omnipresence of God explains that.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
Elessar said:
Can you think of any good reason why he shouldn't refer to himself in human form as his own son? Every human is his child.

Then again, I am not a trinitarian. I am a modalist.
Click to expand...

I was accused of being a modalist. I think the concept has a lot of problems. I see the trinity as three major manifestations as opposed to a minor manifestation in the burning bush. I am not ready to be a quadrilaterian.
 
Lucian

Lucian

Theologian
Well, according to "trinitarianism" the Father and the Son are two persons of the same substance, and Jesus and I are two persons of the same substance. Two humans, two Gods (who are never called that, but always called one God, like with Mormons).

So no, I don't think the verse itself is that big of a problem for it. That's how the thing works, sometimes it's explained that God is one (which accordingly by the Chalcedonian formula makes me and Jesus the same human being), and sometimes that God is more than one (which goes against the shema; tritheism masquerading under the title of one God, so by the Chalcedonian formula the Father and the Son are two Gods). When I read Gregory of Nyssa's explanation why this doesn't mean it's tritheism, he only made me more convinced that it is exactly how I wrote above. Unfortunately, people never give an honest answer on what they believe, but rather repeat some nonsensical mantras, so this is exactly how it seems. The common reaction I've seen is to have a fit, throw a few anathemas around, and maybe start arguing about something other than this subject.
 
Mister Emu

Mister Emu

Emu Extraordinaire
Staff member
Premium Member
Well, according to "trinitarianism" the Father and the Son are two persons of the same substance, and Jesus and I are two persons of the same substance.
Click to expand...
As I understand it you and I(or Jesus) would be two persons of similar substance.
 
dawny0826

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
avalon said:
Mark 1:9-11 King james version

9.And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.


10.And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


11.And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.





So how is this possible? And DO NOT tell me its figurative. There is no reason god would say this unless they are seperate personages.
Click to expand...

My belief and understanding of the Trinity is that God is ONE God who exists as three persons...Father, Son & Holy Spirit. This is an example of the miracle of God at work. Why couldn't God be in two places at once? He's a limitless God.

In the flesh, Christ's purpose was not only to die for our sins but to show us how we should live for God and commune with God, hence the interaction with the Father.

I've been told before by non-Trinitarians that this is nuts and impossible but it makes perfect sense to me. (Mind you, not all Trinitarians believe exactly as I do.)
 
Elessar

Elessar

Well-Known Member
Muffled said:
I was accused of being a modalist. I think the concept has a lot of problems. I see the trinity as three major manifestations as opposed to a minor manifestation in the burning bush. I am not ready to be a quadrilaterian.
Click to expand...

I see it as the only way to explain what seems to be a contradiction in the scriptures, which cannot be -

1. From reading the Messianic texts, it seems that there are multiple types of G-d, the ones implied being "G-d the Father" "G-d the Son" and "G-d the Holy Spirit".

2. However, in the Torah, it is explicitly stated, that Hear, Israel, Hashem our G-d, Hashem is One, and this concept is not only confirmed but strengthened in the Messianic texts. Absolutely, then, G-d is a single entity.

I come to the conclusion, therefore, that G-d is absolutely a single entity. There is one G-d, who is unchanging. However, we, as imperfect humans, perceive him in different ways. Thus, the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", are all that same, one G-d, without any change; the only difference between them is merely in human perception thereof, since G-d is absolutely one. After all, there is at least one other example of G-d taking human form, outside the context of the Messianic texts and Yeshua -

Hashem appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to his tent at the heat of the day. [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant."...[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The men turned away from there and went toward S'dom, but Avraham remained standing before Hashem...[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The two came to S'dom that evening, when Lot was sitting at the gate of S'dom. Lot saw them, got up to greet them and prostrated himself on the ground. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]B'resheet 18:1-3, 22; 19:1[/FONT]
 
D

Danilo T. Aungon

New Member
There are so many commentaries attributed about Trnitarian Doctrine of Catholics nd other Christian Churches. Accordingly, they argue that Father is God, the Son is another God. And the Holy Spirit is God too. When preachers preachs, he always declaring, "THERE IS ONE GOD"Who is God? The father? The son? the spirit? Jesus said his father is spirit and can not be seen. If God the father is spirit, who therefore God Holy Spirit? If God the father is spirit, is he not holy?
 
Riverwolf

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Elessar said:
I see it as the only way to explain what seems to be a contradiction in the scriptures, which cannot be -

1. From reading the Messianic texts, it seems that there are multiple types of G-d, the ones implied being "G-d the Father" "G-d the Son" and "G-d the Holy Spirit".

2. However, in the Torah, it is explicitly stated, that Hear, Israel, Hashem our G-d, Hashem is One, and this concept is not only confirmed but strengthened in the Messianic texts. Absolutely, then, G-d is a single entity.

I come to the conclusion, therefore, that G-d is absolutely a single entity. There is one G-d, who is unchanging. However, we, as imperfect humans, perceive him in different ways. Thus, the "Father, Son and Holy Spirit", are all that same, one G-d, without any change; the only difference between them is merely in human perception thereof, since G-d is absolutely one. After all, there is at least one other example of G-d taking human form, outside the context of the Messianic texts and Yeshua -

Hashem appeared to Avraham by the oaks of Mamre as he sat at the entrance to his tent at the heat of the day. [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]He raised his eyes and looked, and there in front of him stood three men. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]On seeing them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, prostrated himself on the ground, and said, "My lord, if I have found favor in your sight, please don't leave your servant."...[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The men turned away from there and went toward S'dom, but Avraham remained standing before Hashem...[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]The two came to S'dom that evening, when Lot was sitting at the gate of S'dom. Lot saw them, got up to greet them and prostrated himself on the ground. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]B'resheet 18:1-3, 22; 19:1[/FONT]
Click to expand...

Or how about the bit in Bere**** (Genesis) where Jacob wrestles with God? There obviously needs to be a physical humanoid form for Jacob to wrestle with. ;)
 
R

Ronald

Well-Known Member
There is no "Up Side" to trinity, unless you want to be allowed to call yourself Christian!
But there is many facets to the down side.
Remember Jesus/Yeshua came in the Hashem/Name of God. Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Believing in a trinity assures you nothing with God! Hearing the "word" and gaining faith saves you. Doing the "will of God" prepares you to enter the Kingdom.
Being bouyed up on the backs of Christians because you profess trinity is only the precepts of man and being glorified by them, condemed by God.
Believe man or believe God that is the choice. God is ONE! "Besides me there is no other God."

Shalom U'vrachot
 
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