Question for Atheists...

[idea]

Do not shelter the kids from the so called evils of the world. Teach them how to deal with it.

How to deal - get an education, get a job, take those who hurt you to court, avoid dishonest abusive religious organizations and people, seek those who value reality.

 

[Bird123]

None of this is factual.

None of this is factual, either.

You are very close to violating the rules, as people are supposed to present arguments, not make unverifiable claims of truth.

We aren't ants, there are no Gods known to exist.

None of us see you pointing. You are proselytizing.

This is incoherent.

I am simply responding to your comments. Free choice for everyone is what I want. I make no demands nor do I want followers or believers. If you are assuming otherwise and are bothered, I will no longer respond or reply to your comments. Be Happy!!

 

[Bird123]

How to deal - get an education, get a job, take those who hurt you to court, avoid dishonest abusive religious organizations and people, seek those who value reality.

Are you missing anything? Problems never go away until they are Fixed. Study, analyze and plan. Fix with Unconditional Love. Unconditional Love doesn't just give others what they want. Unconditional Love always does what is Best for the other. Give others Love and Kindness and they want to return that. How would the world change if mankind did that?

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Polymath257]

You ignore the meaning and the wisdom of what I said.

No, I don't. I disagree with it. There is a difference.

This statement was about wandering along a journey. It has nothing to do with assuming at all.

You assume there is a purpose. You assume there is a God. Those are two *huge* assumptions.

We all have the power to Choose what we deem important.
One can choose to try and find any and all reasons not to change OR one can choose to consider all the possibilities.

There was this small town. A new person moved to that town. This new person was quiet and kept to himself. Since the new person wasn't that friendly of close to others, the people in the town started bad talking the new guy as being strange. The new guy did things differently. The people in the town each took turns saying what they thought was strange. These people were critical is so many ways because it wasn't their way. Finally, it came to one last old man from the town. This old man said: "Wait a minute everyone!! Look closely for there is Method to the stranger's Madness!!"

And there was another visitor to the town that did things differently, but said that everyone in the town was wrong and criticized them for not doing things his way. He said he was simply offering his viewpoint, but claimed that nobody was listening to him. But people did consider how he did things and determined it was worse than how it was already done, so they pointed out to him that there is a better way and that he need not assume his is the only way to do things. He pouted and maintained that nobody was listening.

What is isn't about what one wants to see. In time, this is a lesson we all will Learn!!

Many lessons are out there.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[Whateverist]

I would suspect loss of belief in the supernatural would be preceded by firm belief in what one believes that to be. Since it is something subtle almost any naive conception will run afoul of the evidence of one’s lived experience. The problem is in imposing preconceptions on what one does not in fact understand at all.

If the supernatural is thought of as the ground of everything then it can only be approached conceptually as that which is most deeply natural that underlies and brings about all else, something too subtle for us to directly observe. But in the case of Christianity at least it seems to be thought of as the will and action of a powerful entity who is very person-like but with special powers that allow Him to steer creation as He pleases while maintaining direct awareness of each person’s actions and intentions. He also manages carrot and stick afterlife alternatives with which to entice us to behave properly. Whatever they’re paying this Guy, it can’t be enough.

 

[F1fan]

I am simply responding to your comments. Free choice for everyone is what I want. I make no demands nor do I want followers or believers. If you are assuming otherwise and are bothered, I will no longer respond or reply to your comments. Be Happy!!

That’s what discourse is, responding accordingly. But you don’t make an effort to present arguments, you have a belief system that isn’t based on facts and you tell others that we should agree with you. If you really had truth you would be able to demonstrate it.

 

[F1fan]

It's time to get in the Real World. Flying ham sandwiches????Do you really think everything in the world fits within your belief system? Get Real!!

That wasn’t what I said.

Ok, so you have made your own journey and found nothing, what are you doing wrong? What are you missing? Is your view too narrow? Do you want God not to exist so badly that you are ignoring things? Do you really not want to take the journey? Is advanced thinking hard to come by? Do you choose to see no purpose because it tasks you to investigate further? Maybe, you just give up too easily. Maybe, the journey will be easier when you Discover others have made it. Perhaps, there is something you missed in the first journey.

I never claimed any of this.

Negative attitude??? I have no attitude at all. I point the way. It's about what is. I find it curious that when people do not hear what they want to hear the names start coming: Rude, Arrogant and even the Devil. Truth will not always be an agreeable thing.

You don’t seem able to hear what others say. You misrepresented quite a bit. You have strong and rigid beliefs and you don’t seem able to see beyond them.

Those boxes of beliefs might be comfortable but one does not move forward within them. There is always more to Discover, leading one Learning, Growing, and ever Moving Forward. You might place labels and names on things like Critical, however it serves no purpose except to feed the Ego and perhaps to limit one's view. True Thinkers never limit themselves from all possibilities. Further, they Question constantly rather than merely accept Beliefs.

I don’t see you willing to question anything beyond what you believe despite plenty of critique.

I placed Real Truth in the World. Feel free to accept or reject any Belief you have. Whether I am taken seriously is once again one's free choice. As for evidence, I have pointed the direction by which one can Discover that evidence for themselves. Of course, One must Seek that evidence if one ever expects to find it.

You believe this yet unable to explain it.

An action of God: God doesn't just give knowledge out. One must struggle to acquire knowledge because Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discover that knowledge. I try to copy God the best I can because it is High Intelligence in so many ways.

None of this is factual.

Maybe, Religion has corrupted your thinking into believing all knowledge is served up on a plate to be accepted or rejected. It doesn't work that way !! In time, you will Discover this for yourself.

No. I questioned religion from an early age and have honed critical thinking skills. That is the path to understanding truth.

 

[Audie]

That’s what discourse is, responding accordingly. But you don’t make an effort to present arguments, you have a belief system that isn’t based on facts and you tell others that we should agree with you. If you really had truth you would be able to demonstrate it.

With "God", all of heaven, the angels, Bible and
all of reality on their side, seems like they could
come up with something

 

[Bird123]

No, I don't. I disagree with it. There is a difference.

You assume there is a purpose. You assume there is a God. Those are two *huge* assumptions.

And there was another visitor to the town that did things differently, but said that everyone in the town was wrong and criticized them for not doing things his way. He said he was simply offering his viewpoint, but claimed that nobody was listening to him. But people did consider how he did things and determined it was worse than how it was already done, so they pointed out to him that there is a better way and that he need not assume his is the only way to do things. He pouted and maintained that nobody was listening.

Many lessons are out there.

Are you assuming I am pouting? No! No! You do not understand me at all.
If I were to say the sky is blue and you disagreed, would I be pouting? It's all the same thing.

God gave everyone a different view to guaranty mankind a larger view than any one person could have. Since everyone is at a different level of understanding. different views are expected. Example: what freezes quicker cold water or hot water? I know cold water freezes quicker. When the question came up, I tested it for myself. Even today people will come to me and say hot water freezes quicker. Do I pout and get mad? Of course not!! They just have not Discovered the Real Truth for themselves. They are living on their beliefs.

Free choice is the basis for true learning. Free choice should not be coerced, threatened or manipulated. God places truth all around, then God allows each their freedom of choice. Each will decide what is good and what is evil. When one understands all sides, Intelligence will make the best choices. Since in the end everyone will be making the best choices, there has never been a reason to draw the line between good and evil.

This is High Intelligence. Doesn't it add up much better than what mankind is doing??

OK, you have a different view. Great!! You see only function and no purpose out there. Isn't my suggestion to keep studying all the things around you a valid suggestion. Since God created it all, studying God's handy work will reflect something one can learn. Even, not assuming God exists, which is where I was at the beginning of my journey, it doesn't matter. Understand enough and it leads to God and purpose. Still, each should have free choice on what one chooses to do.

Do not mistake me for Religion. I am simply copying God by placing truth in the world. That's it. I am Happy. I might point in a direction toward Discovery, however this should not be considered as a command, rule, threat, or leading to any punishment of any kind. The petty things mankind holds so dear is not in me. People get Blame, Judging, Anger, Wrath, Manipulation, Coercing, Intimidating, Threatening, Controlling, and Ruling from others, however that is not me.

You have all my Love and Kindness!!!

That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is not I who is using Blind Faith!!

The post he was replying to, demonstrates otherwise.

That's what I see. It's very clear!! I do not understand why this statement bothers you so much. It is a True statement. Is it Truth that you seek or do I step on your toes?

Truth is demonstrable.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Did I say do not use Accumulated Knowledge??

You called it "limiting".

On the other hand, one acquires more knowledge figuring out just how it works.

Why would you try and figure out how X works when somebody else already did it before you?
Have you ever heard the expression "trying to re-invent the wheel"?

Further, what do you Discover for yourself?

Plenty of things. But I don't know in advance what I (or anyone else) will discover.
Unlike some people, I don't go into research with predetermined answers.

You are dependent on others.

All humans are. You included.
Without those "others", we wouldn't be having this conversation on the internet.

You want to deal in Beliefs.

No. You are projecting. Mere "Beliefs" is what you do. Not what I do. I deal in evidence.

You accept or reject what you hear. That is Limiting!!!!

No. I accept what can be independently demonstrated with rational evidence. I reject the rest.

Adversity breeds invention. My computer is one others threw away. I think: What is wrong with it? How does it work? Do I trash it and go buy a new one? No. I Discover what It takes to fix it. Is it about accepting and rejecting? No. It's about Discovering what is!!!

Who has acquired more knowledge. the guy who through it away or the guy who fixed it?

I did have a TV go bad. I figured out the part that was bad. I ordered the part from China since they were the only ones who made it. I waited 6 months and they would never send me one. Is it over? Hmmm? Just how can I guy make one of those things? Let me work on that a bit.

Are you starting to see?

What I see is that you are doing your very best to miss the point.

What you do there is not "discovering". It's, instead, learning what others discovered and invented.
You did not "reinvent" the TV. You did not "discover" all the physics etc that goes into TV building.
Instead, you learned how the tech works that OTHERS have invented / discovered and then used that knowledge to fix it.

You "discovered" diddly squad. At best, you backwards engineered it.
And even then, you wouldn't even know where to begin to make those chip controlled parts yourself, which is why you ordered them instead.

Give me a break.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok, explain why the sun is a bad design.

It's not even a design.
It's instead just the inevitable result of gravitational forces acting on matter.

Now, in order to determine the sun is a bad design, you must know the sun's total purpose.

Why do you assume stars have purpose?

What is the total purpose of the sun?

It doesn't look there is such a thing.

Now, if you say the sun has no purpose, then it would be a bad design because it is doing so much.

That makes no sense.

Clearly, it's designed to do more than nothing.

????

More silly assumptions.
It's just a ball of matter where the matter undergoes nuclear fusion due to the massive gravitational forces.
What "design"? What "purpose"?

It's just physics.

Your quote: You don't seem to understand what an objective search for truth would even look like.
My Answer: If this were true, how could I be Discovering so very much?

You claim this, but so far you haven't given any example of anything you have "discovered".
All you have are faith based beliefs. Those aren't discoveries. They are just beliefs.

I am doing much more than accepting or rejecting the Discoveries of others.

Yeah. You are inventing nonsense out of thin air and asserting them as Real Truth (tm).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They made the comment that the sun was a bad design. I disagree. As far as no purpose and no design, then it could be removed. What happens if the sun were removed?

The universe would be virtually unchanged.
There are trillions of stars. 1 more or less is not going to make much difference.

In fact, plenty of stars are "removed" every second throughout the universe when they collapse under their own gravity. Or when eaten by massive black holes.
Several will undergo this process by the end of this sentence.

It's purpose would become very clear

Haaa, I see.
You make the classic mistake of confusing "function" / "effect" with "purpose".

In the ecosystem of the planet, the sun's "function" / "effect" is providing the earth with workable energy. But that is not its "purpose".
Just like how a mountain's "function" in climate is that it causes rain. But the "purpose" of a mountain is not to make it rain. That's just the effect it has merely by being there.

The sooner you realize the difference between "purpose" and "function" / "effect", the sooner you can correct his silly mistake.

As for design, it works so well and for so very long. Random chance never is that smooth.

It's not "random chance". The chance of stars forming and burning, considering the physics of the universe, is 1 in 1.
Star formation is inevitable.

Are you aware that there are more stars in the universe then there are grains of sand on all the beaches of the world? Multiple times over?
It's not like our sun is "rare" or anything...................

Further, how many random chance events does it take for complex designs to exist?

This is a silly question.
Stars aren't complex at all.
And even so, "complexity" isn't rare either. Nor does "complexity" require extra-ordinary explanation.
Complex things happen all the time.

Just look at the light company's power generation. It could never exist randomly.

It's not random. Gravity isn't random.

The sun is an advanced, Highly Intelligent design.

It's not. It's just matter compressed by its own gravity.

Mankind does not have the intelligence to create anything to last billions of years and still work.

That's false. Humans could easily make a star. The only problem is that it's impractical because it requires an enormous volume of matter that we simply don't have at our disposal.


You are saying extremely silly things. So silly that I wonder if you even have the slightest clue of what a star actually is and why it burns...

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It doesn't matter how you feel. The sun's purpose will be realized if it were gone.

FUNCTION / EFFECT

This is not the same as "purpose".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The sun supplies a gravity well for all the planets in order they do not wander off.

At the center of your entire silly case here, is a gigantic teleological fallacy.

The planets don't wander off BECAUSE of the gravity of the sun.
It's not so that the sun has gravity for the purpose of planets not wondering off.

The magnet sticks to the fridge because of how magnetism works.
The fridge doesn't exist "for the purpose" of magnets sticking to it.




You remind me of the textbook teleological example of two frogs sitting by a random puddle where one says to the other "look at how perfect this puddle is for us to live, surely it was made specially for us"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In order to find proof, you must take the journey. You must seek. Study and see how all these complex things come together. How many complex things do you really think randomly come together?

Your continued emphasis on "complexity" betrays the blatant argument from ignorance / awe at the root of your "reasoning".

Aren't you just using function as an excuse not to look for purpose? Widen your view. Functions serve purpose.

A sharp rock sticks out of a cliff.
A cat rubs against it to scratch itself in places it can't reach with its paws.
So the cat imposes the "function" of "back scratcher" on the rock.
That is its function.

Is it the "purpose" of the random sharp rock sticking out of the cliff to be used by cats as back scratchers?
Was it "designed" for the "purpose" of back scratching?

Function vs purpose.
They are not the same thing.

The energy from the sun hitting the Earth alone is enough energy to supply mankind's total energy needs to date. Mankind does have the technology to accomplish this. On the other hand, multi-angular,not doing this creates learning and advancement in other areas.Variables!!! More is going on than you realize.

You are seriously engaging in combo-points here.
Argument from awe.
Argument from ignorance.
Teleological fallacies.

The list goes on and on.
It's one reasoning error after the other.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Name a function that has no purpose.

See my example of the sharp rock sticking out of a cliff that a cat uses as a back-scratcher.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have offered evidence.

The only thing you "offered" were mere beliefs based on a myriad of logical fallacies.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You are not open to all possibilities.

It was the funny Richard Dawkins that once said

"I am very open... just not SO open that my brains are falling out".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Are my answers really telling you my answers are not valid?

Yes. Your insistence on underpinning them with a myriad of logical fallacies makes them invalid.