QUESTION: Do the letters in YHWH compose a meaning?

[Tumah]

I am interested in both, Tumah, in order to see whether either would form meaning.

I like how you have decent familiarity with the topic.

Mildly anyway.

Yes, definitely, I want to take into account the change. As I understand it, the change occurred after the writing of the Torah and Psalms, but before the time of Zechariah.
I don't know if you clicked on the SPOILER tags in my messages above, but one of them was a graph showing the changes.

According to Jewish sources, the change was made by Ezra.

I see that chart now.

 

[Rakovsky]

The thing is that you switched from talking about the special meaning of the shapes of the letters to a special meaning in the names of the letters. These are two different things.

Tumah,
To clarify, my understanding is that each letter in Paleo-Hebrew was shaped a certain way to mean something, like the H was shaped as a person with his arms up-raised. Aleph, for example, was drawn like an ox head. I also understand it that each letter also has a certain name. The name might also have a meaning.

And the ancient Jews attached certain meanings to the letters mystically, sometimes. So for example, Genesis, Bere****, means the beginning, and it starts with a letter Bet. And the book of Genesis, and the Torah itself, begins with a Bet. I heard one claim that this is because a B looks like a C, with one side open, with the open side effectively serving as a kind of "bookend" to the text.

 

[Tumah]

Tumah,
To clarify, my understanding is that each letter in Paleo-Hebrew was shaped a certain way to mean something, like the H was shaped as a person with his arms up-raised. Aleph, for example, was drawn like an ox head. I also understand it that each letter also has a certain name. The name might also have a meaning

And the ancient Jews attached certain meanings to the letters mystically, sometimes. So for example, Genesis, Bere****, means the beginning, and it starts with a letter Bet. And the book of Genesis, and the Torah itself, begins with a Bet. I heard one claim that this is because a B looks like a C, with one side open, with the open side effectively serving as a kind of "bookend" to the text.

I don't think I've ever seen entire words interpreted according to the name of the letters. Its a lot more common to see meanings attached to shape of the square or Ashurite letter shape or the numerical equivalent.

In the example you gave, the interpretation is based on the shape of the square alphabet, not the name that was based on the shape of the Paleo alphabet. The name of the letter Bet means house. In the interpretation you mentioned, its based on the backwards C-like shape, something not present in the Paleo counterpart.

Your question was about interpreting the Tetragrammaton based on the name of the letters. I've never seen entire words interpreted based on the names of its letters. So to answer your question, if its been done, I don't think I've ever come across it.

An example of what I have seen is the Hebrew word for Passover 'PeSaḤ'. I've seen it broken down into Peh (the name of the first letter) meaning 'mouth' and SaḤ (the last two letters) meaning meaning 'speaks' and that relates to one of the main Biblical commandments unique to Passover that is to recite the story of the Exodus. But I've never seen all three component letters broken down.

Incidentally, I don't think that interpretation is correct as the last letter of the Pentateuch is a lamed which doesn't look like an opposite bookend. I think you may be confusing it with the two letter nun's that are before and after Num. 10:35-36. Over there we have two backwards letter nun's like this [ bracketing the two verses kind of like bookends The Midrash teaches that (among other things) the shape of the opening letter Bet (ב - the opening faces the next letter as Hebrew is right to left) in Genesis teaches that we may only speak about what occurred from the first day of creation and onward.

 

[dantech]

I knows there's some meaning regarding the shapes of letters but I'm not sure to what extent, and I haven't heard or learned anything about entire words being interpreted according to shapes of letters.
We put a lot more importance into gematria than into shapes, afaik.

 

[Rakovsky]

I think maybe in my OP I did not make clear enough that there were several premises to my main question.
The first premise is that Hebrew script in the era of the Torah and the Psalms developed out of or began as a pictographic system. I think scholars agree about this.

The second premise is that the meanings of the letters were remembered by the Jewish community and sometimes used to see meanings they associated with the words. I would like to see more evidence of this or see Jewish writers admitting to this before accepting it myself wholeheartedly.

The third premise is that Jewish writers have at times seen mystical or inner meanings to their letters in words. I think this is also a provable fact, but a viewpoint or interpretive approach by some Jewish writers that is not known by many people.

As to my main question about treating YHWH as an acronym, Glynda-Lee Hoffmann writes in her book "The Secret Dowry of Eve" on the topic of Qabalistic interpretations of the name of YHWH that it is "a Qabalic acronym that refers to the supreme integrative pattern. As we have seen, it represents the integration."
She explains how she arrives at this conclusion:

Yod is a physical container, the body. Waw is the sixth Aut in the Qabalic system, a fertilizing agent. Hay, fifth Aut in the Qabalic system, is the archetype of life. YHWH has two Hays - one for inner life and the other for outer life. ... When YHWH is read linguistically, it becomes the clumsy ahweh and irrevocably loses its original, sacred meaning.

I don't know how well she is portraying Qabalistic ideas to her readers, because she also comments that YHWH is a "process", rather than a "deity". I don't know about Qabalah, but the Tanakh sees Yahweh as a deity.

Spoiler: CLICK HERE FOR THE BOOK SOURCE

The Secret Dowry of Eve

Also, this does not get into the issue I raised about the chart and the original meanings.
For example, "yod" I think is an actual Hebrew word for arm, and it also is the name of the letter ' and it is also drawn as an arm in the original Hebrew script in the time of the Torah and Psalms. When she says "Yod is a physical container, the body", you can only guess that a "hand" is related to the body, but she is not really getting to the yod=arm issue.

 

[Tumah]

I think maybe in my OP I did not make clear enough that there were several premises to my main question.
The first premise is that Hebrew script in the era of the Torah and the Psalms developed out of or began as a pictographic system. I think scholars agree about this.

I can only speak from a religious point of view and I think according to the Talmud, the Ashurite was known and used at least as far back as Mt. Sinai. The Talmud seems to indicate that the two tablets of the Ten Commandments were written in square script although the scrolls Moses wrote were not.

The second premise is that the meanings of the letters were remembered by the Jewish community and sometimes used to see meanings they associated with the words. I would like to see more evidence of this or see Jewish writers admitting to this before accepting it myself wholeheartedly.

I can't provide anything more than I have.

The third premise is that Jewish writers have at times seen mystical or inner meanings to their letters in words.

This is true.

I think this is also a provable fact, but a viewpoint or interpretive approach by some Jewish writers that is not known by many people.

As to my main question about treating YHWH as an acronym, Glynda-Lee Hoffmann writes in her book "The Secret Dowry of Eve" on the topic of Qabalistic interpretations of the name of YHWH that it is "a Qabalic acronym that refers to the supreme integrative pattern. As we have seen, it represents the integration."
She explains how she arrives at this conclusion:

I don't know how well she is portraying Qabalistic ideas to her readers, because she also comments that YHWH is a "process", rather than a "deity". I don't know about Qabalah, but the Tanakh sees Yahweh as a deity.

Spoiler: CLICK HERE FOR THE BOOK SOURCE

The Secret Dowry of Eve

While I have seen the Tetragrammaton interpreted in kabbalistic works according to the shape of its letters as referring to a process, I have not seen it done in this way. I'm not even sure I understand what this means. Maybe she is referring to some Hermetic idea since Hermetic Qaballah is often written with a q to distinguish it from Jewish Kaballah and Christian Caballah.

 

[Rakovsky]

The connection between the Priestly Blessing and the hands is because there are the same number of parts to the hand as there are words in the blessing. You have 3 segments on 4 fingers, two segments on the thumb and the palm. That's how many words are in the blessing.

Great explanation, Tumah. I love how you have decent familiarity with these concepts that are familiar to me.

I found in the Jewish Encyclopedia that yod refers to an arm and that waw refers to a nail or hook, and I know it's common to have many levels of interpretations of words in Jewish mysticism (eg. Gematria).

But I never heard of Jewish mystics looking at the words in the Tanakh and saying something like "This word has a yod in it, so one of the mystic meanings is that it is talking about an arm", or "This word begins with an aleph, so it is a word talking about power".

It seems like the kind of thing some of them would do though.

 

[Rakovsky]

The Talmud understands this verse to be a metaphor for Torah. Just like the goad causes the ox to till the ground to bring out sustenance (a metaphor for life), so to the Torah goads the person to travel the path to life. But a goad is movable so maybe the Torah is mutable as well. So the verse also compares it to nails which are immutable. But a nail itself causes a deficit where it is placed (by making a hole). So the verse adds plantings (your translation renders it 'well fastened'). Just like multiply, so too the Torah multiplies (and doesn't cause deficit). So its a metaphor for Torah where each successive word rectifies the issue with the metaphor in the word before it.

Yes, a goad makes an ox till to bring life, and the idea of a nail specifying well fastened can be because it wants to say it is established, strongly set in place.
Good commentary.
Maybe the verse writers were thinking of sticks and nails because they used objects poetically resembling them to write with in those days. (eg. a pen looks kind of like a stick).
Just a guess.

 

[Rakovsky]

There's a wiki page that has more information than I do.
They have pierced my hands and my feet - Wikipedia
There it mentions that in Aquilas revised manuscript, he translates it as "they've bound my hands and feet".

I haven't heard that yods were drawn like vavs in early manuscripts.

It's a debate I've had over on:
Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com • View topic - Psalm 22:17, Hebrew Text, "Like A Lion". Who's Lion?

Some skeptics are saying that the reading of the DSS as Kaaru can be wrong because they think the scholars are wrong that waws and yods are generally somewhat different lengths in the DSS. After pages of discussion, I think the skeptics are wrong and looking for a debating point.

 

[Rakovsky]

I'd suggest that maybe a slightly lengthened yod is more likely than an entire extra alef.


I'm not familiar with all of these instances, but it was easy to find the first one and that will illustrate my point. The letters dalet alef gimmel spell the word for "worry". However, in this context, "worry" would not fit the verse in Neh. 13:16. Its talking about some type of wares that they bought and sold. You can't do that with worry. So we're forced to say that there's a textual variant here.
However, that's not the case with "k'ari". There is a meaning that can be understood with that word in the context that would fit the poetic nature of Psalms. So we'd need a compelling reason to drop the alef.

I'm not looking to debate you in this thread, But to answer your question, you were saying that Ka'aru does not make sense because there is no variant of two A's. So I gave you examples of variations in Hebrew and you agreed that dropping the a sometimes happens because the text compels it.

The compelling issue for dropping the double A is that just like "worry"(w/ double a) would not make sense in Neh 13, Kaaru (double a) does not make sense because like you said, kaaru is not a known word and because the text in this case (DSS) is spelled KA'ARU, like five Masoretic manuscripts say.

IOW:

• You: If it does spell Kaaru, what could that mean? Nothing. So it can't say it.
• Me: It can mean Karu per the known practice of adding an aleph.
• You: Yes, but we only read the text that way if the text compels it.
• Me: Yes, the text compels it if it does spell Kaaru.

Since I'm not going to debate you, I'll just stipulate I agree that the nonChristian Jewish manuscripts have both words and meanings and that I am open to either translation turning out to being the right one.

I'm not really sure what you're referring to in some of the things you write here, but I think you misunderstood me. I was referring to where you wrote

If so, he could have written k'ari or karu and hinted at the other word. That is, the full meaning I see is that the writer is implying that the enemies, armed with "the sword" and "horns" "gouge" his limbs "like a lion" would attack.​

It seems as though you were suggesting that both the translation of karu and k'ari be used to formulate a single translation for the verse. I was pointing out that I don't think the rabbinical commentaries use both translations of a single word to formulate a translation of the verse. They'll usually come out with two different ways of understanding the text instead.

Yes.

 

[Rakovsky]

I don't think I've ever seen entire words interpreted according to the name of the letters. Its a lot more common to see meanings attached to shape of the square or Ashurite letter shape or the numerical equivalent. In the example you gave, the interpretation is based on the shape of the square alphabet, not the name that was based on the shape of the Paleo alphabet. The name of the letter Bet means house. In the interpretation you mentioned, its based on the backwards C-like shape, something not present in the Paleo counterpart.

Good point.

An example of what I have seen is the Hebrew word for Passover 'PeSaḤ'. I've seen it broken down into Peh (the name of the first letter) meaning 'mouth' and SaḤ (the last two letters) meaning meaning 'speaks' and that relates to one of the main Biblical commandments unique to Passover that is to recite the story of the Exodus. But I've never seen all three component letters broken down.

^This is the kind of thing I am looking for.

Great examples by you:

the two letter nun's that are before and after Num. 10:35-36. Over there we have two backwards letter nun's like this [ bracketing the two verses kind of like bookends The Midrash teaches that (among other things) the shape of the opening letter Bet (ב - the opening faces the next letter as Hebrew is right to left) in Genesis teaches that we may only speak about what occurred from the first day of creation and onward.

 

[Rakovsky]

While I have seen the Tetragrammaton interpreted in kabbalistic works according to the shape of its letters as referring to a process, I have not seen it done in this way. I'm not even sure I understand what this means. Maybe she is referring to some Hermetic idea since Hermetic Qaballah is often written with a q to distinguish it from Jewish Kaballah and Christian Caballah.

Sounds right.

Good input by you in this thread.

 

[Tumah]

The compelling issue for dropping the double A is that just like "worry"(w/ double a) would not make sense in Neh 13, Kaaru (double a) does not make sense because like you said, kaaru is not a known word and because the text in this case (DSS) is spelled KA'ARU, like five Masoretic manuscripts say.

IOW:

• You: If it does spell Kaaru, what could that mean? Nothing. So it can't say it.
• Me: It can mean Karu per the known practice of adding an aleph.
• You: Yes, but we only read the text that way if the text compels it.
• Me: Yes, the text compels it if it does spell Kaaru.

Since I'm not going to debate you, I'll just stipulate I agree that the nonChristian Jewish manuscripts have both words and meanings and that I am open to either translation turning out to being the right one.

What I was trying to say was "since the word as is makes sense in context without dropping any letters, why assume a reading that requires dropping a letter (or as a rare instance of extra letters)?" That's what I was trying to say.

 

[Rakovsky]

What I was trying to say was "since the word as is makes sense in context without dropping any letters, why assume a reading that requires dropping a letter (or as a rare instance of extra letters)?" That's what I was trying to say.

I understand.
My answer is that the question itself is about a situation (DSS) where the word is kaaru and does not make sense, so based on the known practice we drop the doubled aleph.

If we are talking about a manuscript (most Masoretic ones) where the word is kaari and as is makes sense in context without dropping any letters, we don't drop letters.

Like I said, I recognize that there are Masoretic manuscripts with all three versions (kaaru, karu, kaari) and am not advocating a certain version as the only right one. In case you think I am debating, just let me know and I'll stop.

 

[Rakovsky]

QUESTION: If Yod means Arm/Hand, and Vav means Nail/Hook, according to Jewish Encyclopedia, then what does the letter H, Hey/Hei/Heh mean?

R.Deoel's analysis of the Kaballic tree in Moshe Sharon's book "The Holy Land in History and Thought" says that it refers to a window:

YHVH [is] the name which encapsulates the Secret Doctrine in the Kabbalah.... As noted, the window is the image linked to the letter He(H), which was showen to refer to the two Brides in the context of the unpronouncable name YHVH .... joining together of the second letter H (a window) with the letter V (a nail) has been symbolized by the idea of making a hole in the glass with a nail, a symbolic act which parallels the piercing of the cover of the Green Box. Just as the Torah is the Bride, so the Green Box is the Bride, as is the Large Glass itself, for this is a window (H).

The Holy Land in History and Thought

I found the Chabad website saying that H refers to "Behold", but it didn't give a source for that. Heinrich Gesenius writes in his "Hebrew Lexicon" that Behold is one of possibly related terms:

H ( He Aleph ), the fifth letter... Its original form perfhaps represents a lattice of window, and the same seems to be expressed by the word HEY (H Aleph) Lo! See! ...

H Aleph: Chaldean interjection Lo! Behold! Daniel 3:25
H Aleph: Hebrew and Chaldean same. Genesis 47:23. In Chaldean pleon Dan 2:43; Behold as, etc. ...

Hekh: interjection imitating a cry of joy Aha! Isa 44:16; also used in glorifying over an enemy's misfortune, Ps. 40:16

HBL: (1) To breathe, to exhale, (2) to act or speak vainly 2 Kings 17:15 and they followed vanity(הַהֶ֙בֶל֙); Job 27:12 why then do ye speak so vainly? Also to have a vain hope Ps. 62:11 set not a vain hope
HBL: Used of a gentle breeze, Isa 57:13; more often used of the breath of the mouth. ... Job 7:16


Abridged edition of Gesenius's Hebrew and Chaldee lexicon to the Old Testament scriptures, from the Engl. tr. of S.P. Tregelles

Do you agree with the underlined part?

Genesis 47:23 says:
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר יֹוסֵף֙ אֶל־הָעָ֔ם הֵן֩ קָנִ֨יתִי אֶתְכֶ֥ם הַיֹּ֛ום וְאֶת־אַדְמַתְכֶ֖ם לְפַרְעֹ֑ה הֵֽא־לָכֶ֣ם זֶ֔רַע וּזְרַעְתֶּ֖ם
אֶת־הָאֲדָמָֽה׃

Ezekiel 16:43 says:
יַ֗עַן אֲשֶׁ֤ר לֹֽא־ [זָכַרְתִּי כ] (זָכַרְתְּ֙ ק) אֶת־יְמֵ֣י נְעוּרַ֔יִךְ וַתִּרְגְּזִי־לִ֖י בְּכָל־אֵ֑לֶּה וְגַם־אֲנִ֨י הֵ֜א דַּרְכֵּ֣ךְ ׀ בְּרֹ֣אשׁ נָתַ֗תִּי נְאֻם֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה וְלֹ֤א [עָשִׂיתִי כ] (עָשִׂית֙ ק) אֶת־הַזִּמָּ֔ה עַ֖ל כָּל־תֹּועֲבֹתָֽיִךְ׃

Daniel 2:43 says:
[דִי כ] (וְדִ֣י ק) חֲזַ֗יְתָ פַּרְזְלָא֙ מְעָרַב֙ בַּחֲסַ֣ף טִינָ֔א מִתְעָרְבִ֤ין לֶהֱוֹן֙ בִּזְרַ֣ע אֲנָשָׁ֔א וְלָֽא־לֶהֱוֹ֥ן דָּבְקִ֖ין דְּנָ֣ה עִם־דְּנָ֑ה הֵֽא־כְדִ֣י פַרְזְלָ֔א לָ֥א מִתְעָרַ֖ב עִם־חַסְפָּֽא׃
It is said to be Aramaic there.

Eliezer Segal in his book Reading Jewish Religious Texts quotes one as associating the soul with H:

Why is gold called ZaHaB?
Because in it are included three qualities: .... (Second Quality is) the soul Neshamah, which is H. And the soul has five names: spirit, living, single, soul, life.

If H is associated with breath (HBL), then I can see how there could be an association with soul too, as Hashem breathed life into Adam in Genesis.

 

[Tumah]

Do you agree with the underlined part?

Genesis 47:23 says:
וַיֹּ֤אמֶר יֹוסֵף֙ אֶל־הָעָ֔ם הֵן֩ קָנִ֨יתִי אֶתְכֶ֥ם הַיֹּ֛ום וְאֶת־אַדְמַתְכֶ֖ם לְפַרְעֹ֑ה הֵֽא־לָכֶ֣ם זֶ֔רַע וּזְרַעְתֶּ֖ם
אֶת־הָאֲדָמָֽה׃

Ezekiel 16:43 says:
יַ֗עַן אֲשֶׁ֤ר לֹֽא־ [זָכַרְתִּי כ] (זָכַרְתְּ֙ ק) אֶת־יְמֵ֣י נְעוּרַ֔יִךְ וַתִּרְגְּזִי־לִ֖י בְּכָל־אֵ֑לֶּה וְגַם־אֲנִ֨י הֵ֜א דַּרְכֵּ֣ךְ ׀ בְּרֹ֣אשׁ נָתַ֗תִּי נְאֻם֙ אֲדֹנָ֣י יְהוִ֔ה וְלֹ֤א [עָשִׂיתִי כ] (עָשִׂית֙ ק) אֶת־הַזִּמָּ֔ה עַ֖ל כָּל־תֹּועֲבֹתָֽיִךְ׃

Daniel 2:43 says:
[דִי כ] (וְדִ֣י ק) חֲזַ֗יְתָ פַּרְזְלָא֙ מְעָרַב֙ בַּחֲסַ֣ף טִינָ֔א מִתְעָרְבִ֤ין לֶהֱוֹן֙ בִּזְרַ֣ע אֲנָשָׁ֔א וְלָֽא־לֶהֱוֹ֥ן דָּבְקִ֖ין דְּנָ֣ה עִם־דְּנָ֑ה הֵֽא־כְדִ֣י פַרְזְלָ֔א לָ֥א מִתְעָרַ֖ב עִם־חַסְפָּֽא׃
It is said to be Aramaic there.

All the underlined words here mean "behold". The word הנה (behold) in Hebrew is הא in Aramaic. This is how Onkelos (and Rashi) also translates the first verse for both underlined words. Rashi gives that translation again for the second verse. And the last verse is already in Aramaic.

 

[Rakovsky]

All the underlined words here mean "behold". The word הנה (behold) in Hebrew is הא in Aramaic. This is how Onkelos (and Rashi) also translates the first verse for both underlined words. Rashi gives that translation again for the second verse. And the last verse is already in Aramaic.

I am a bit confused. I understand all underlined words mean behold, and I can also understand that "הנה (behold) in Hebrew is הא in Aramaic." And I can understand if Onkelos and Rashi translate the words this way (as behold).

What I am confused about is: Are you implying that הא is not a Hebrew word at all, but only an Aramaic word that is already in Aramaic in the last verse, in Daniel?

In seems like throughout Tanakh and Torah, Hebrew is generally used, especially in Torah, rather than Aramaic. So if Gen 37 says הא, I would expect that to exist in Hebrew vocabulary.

What is your understanding?

 

[Tumah]

I am a bit confused. I understand all underlined words mean behold, and I can also understand that "הנה (behold) in Hebrew is הא in Aramaic." And I can understand if Onkelos and Rashi translate the words this way (as behold).

What I am confused about is: Are you implying that הא is not a Hebrew word at all, but only an Aramaic word that is already in Aramaic in the last verse, in Daniel?

In seems like throughout Tanakh and Torah, Hebrew is generally used, especially in Torah, rather than Aramaic. So if Gen 37 says הא, I would expect that to exist in Hebrew vocabulary.

What is your understanding?

I don't know. I'm no linguist. It could go either way I guess. Maybe it was the one of three Hebrew versions of "behold" (alongside הנה and הן) that became the standard in Aramaic. Or maybe its an Aramaic word that made its way into the Hebrew. I have no idea. Its an odd enough word in Genesis and Ezekiel that Rashi had to step in to explain that it means "behold". Obviously in Daniel it fits since that chapter is already in Aramaic.

In my mind I associate it with Aramaic since that's how I'm used to hearing it. When I try to sound out how the contraction "Here I am (הנני)" would sound using הא, I keep thinking הני, which to me sounds like "these" in Aramaic and I'm getting confused. So either there is a difference between הנה and הא and you can't make that contraction in the latter or its just confusing.

I do notice that these three all seem to mean the same thing: ה[א] הנ הנה (H['] HN HNH).

Probably a good argument for the two letter root camp.

 

[rosends]

@Tumah what is your opinion of Rashi's comment on Shemot 12:9 "אַל תֹּאכְלוּ מִמֶּנּוּ נָא " which reads: "שאינו צלוי כל צורכו קוראו נא בלשון ערבי:"

Is that a statement that a non-Hebrew word was used in the text? (the Shadal summarizes those who say similar things as " נא: בערבי חי, ובלתי מבושל כל צרכו (רש"י ראב"ע וראז' וגיז').

 

[Tumah]

@Tumah what is your opinion of Rashi's comment on Shemot 12:9 "אַל תֹּאכְלוּ מִמֶּנּוּ נָא " which reads: "שאינו צלוי כל צורכו קוראו נא בלשון ערבי:"

Is that a statement that a non-Hebrew word was used in the text? (the Shadal summarizes those who say similar things as " נא: בערבי חי, ובלתי מבושל כל צרכו (רש"י ראב"ע וראז' וגיז').

It looks similar to one of the things the Ibn Ezra says there:

וכבר אמרתי כי רוב לשון ערבי דומה ללשון עברית, והבשר החי יקראו בלשון ערבי ניי, ואותיות אהו"י מתחלפים בלשונם כמו בלשוננו​

To me it looks like they are saying that by looking at a language similar to Hebrew we can figure out the meaning of the Hebrew word.