1. Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Quantum Mechanics and Conscious Intent

Discussion in 'Science and Religion' started by Open_Minded, Jun 12, 2013.

  1. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    NPR Article


    It's an interesting Reality that we live in. :)
     
  2. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,157
    Ratings:
    +37,804
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    Are Wigner and Wheeler confusing methodology for ontology?
     
  3. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    Methodologically speaking - a delayed choice (by a conscious being - in this case human) changed history.
     
  4. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,157
    Ratings:
    +37,804
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    Perhaps, but that still doesn't address the question of whether or not they are confusing methodology with ontology. I'm not saying they are, but I am asking the question.
     
  5. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    I'm not sure what your point is. ...

    The facts are there for all of humanity to interpret, debate and discuss how they impact our understanding of "the nature of existence or being". Should they refrain from such mussings???? Should we????
     
  6. Sunstone

    Sunstone De Diablo Del Fora
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2004
    Messages:
    76,157
    Ratings:
    +37,804
    Religion:
    Non-Theistic Mysticism
    It's a personal choice, but I usually refrain from such musings. They usually seem to me wildly speculative and fruitless. More masturbatory entertainment than substance.
     
  7. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    It is a personal choice - that's for sure. Although - I will point out one thing - sometimes it's the mussings that bring about further research and experimentation. :shrug: Again - that old conscious intent thing .....
     
  8. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    15,010
    Ratings:
    +5,502
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Interesting is an understatement. The first posted quote I understood. I'm not too proud to admit that the second quote was partially over my head.

    Here's one little part from that quote:

    before the measurement we can't say that the particle exists. Something only exists after it is detected.

    In my macroscopic world, let's say there's a pebble under a rock. We lift the rock and see the pebble. Wasn't that pebble existing and there before we lifted the rock even though we couldn't say before looking if a pebble was there.

    How come the article says: Something only exists after it is detected.

    I was already a believer in that statement from my study of macroscopic paranormal phenomenon.
     
    #8 George-ananda, Jun 12, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  9. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    You are not the first to have pondered this dynamic. Back when Quantum Physics was first being discovered Einstein (and many others) pondered the same thing. Following is a quote from Einstein:

    Also - you may be interested in Schrodinger's Cat
     
  10. George-ananda

    George-ananda Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
    Premium Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2012
    Messages:
    15,010
    Ratings:
    +5,502
    Religion:
    Advaita and Spiritualist and Pantheist
    Thanks. I started looking at the Schrodinger's Cat article. I've known of this before but I have a hard time getting my head around it all.

    Thankfully all my spiritual beliefs are from sources at the macroscopic level. I'll leave quantum arguments to others. It does tell me though this universe does not operate like our minds (which evolved for success in three-dimensional macroscopic thinking) would expect things to operate.
     
  11. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    OH the things I posted above are just the beginning. The following may interest you as well.

    There are all sorts of philosophical implications that arise from these types of experiments. :)

    Personally, I think the moon (and the pebble) are there, even when I'm not peering at them. :)
     
    #11 Open_Minded, Jun 12, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2013
  12. idav

    idav Being
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    Physics doesnt create reality it hinders it but the potential is there when there are no constraints.
     
  13. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    I don't believe any scientist (nor anyone else that I'm aware of) has postulated that "physics creates reality".

    That would be similar to saying, "Biology creates life". (scratching my head in puzzlement)
     
  14. idav

    idav Being
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    ”observation” in qm is macroscopic world interfering with the microscopic world. the probability is influenced by physical interaction with the general laws of physics.
     
  15. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    Yes - I know what "observation" in Quantum Mechanics is.

    The macroscopic world interferes with the microscopic world on a natural level as well as in physics. No one (that I know of) claims "Physics creates reality".

    As to your point about what "observation" is. Within in the context of scientific experiments - "observation" necessarily includes intent (the intent of the experimenter). And when intent is involved (whether the "observation" is by instrument - or not) consciousness is involved.

    It is the dynamic of consciousness interfering with the microscopic world, that is forcing a paradigm shift in the way we view, think about and understand reality.
     
    #15 Open_Minded, Jun 13, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  16. idav

    idav Being
    Staff Member Premium Member

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2011
    Messages:
    18,986
    Ratings:
    +3,302
    Religion:
    Pantheist
    My point is that non conscious objects can interefere with the experiment without our intent being involved. Intent being able to do this is important and can possibly be a path to free will but within limitations.
     
  17. Open_Minded

    Open_Minded Nothing is Separate

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2013
    Messages:
    262
    Ratings:
    +33
    We agree completely - but let us recognize the paradigm shifting dynamic of " Intent being able to do this is important and can possibly be a path to free will but within limitations".

    Let us also recognize that consciousness can impact reality - this is not just limited to "free will" ... consciousness itself can impact reality.

    Let us not anthropormorphize consciousness either. As humans, we really have no universally accepted definition of what consciousness is in our own species, let-alone what it is in reality. :shrug:
     
Loading...