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punishment vs. consequences

Discussion in 'Religious Debates' started by EnhancedSpirit, Apr 3, 2005.

  1. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I have read a lot of posts talking about God punishing us for our sins. I just don't see this. When I tell my children they cannot jump on the couch, it is not to deny them the joy of jumping, or to save the furniture. I have a rule about jumping on the couch because of a law in nature called gravity. But children love to jump, and they did not stop trying to do so until the day they got hurt. When my son got hurt by falling off the couch, that was not me punishing him, it was the consequence of not heeding my warning.

    The commandments were not forced on us by a controlling God. He would not give us free will, then impose rules on us, and punish us for using our gift of free will. Moses asked God how he might bring his people closer to God, and the 10 commandments were guidelines to the nature of spiritual law. God does not want to deny us the joy of making love to another person, but there are severe consequences if your actions hurt any other person, even if by accident. We are to honor our mother and father because they hold reminders of why you are here. "... no other God's before me" because God is Love, not a deity, not a spirit, not a man with a big white beard, not his son. You were created out of Love, and Jesus taught of unconditional love. Some of the commandments would require a seperate thread. But the jest of this is this, the commandments are warnings, not demands. And the mystery behind the teachings is this, it's not about the act, it's about the re-action or the 'EMOTIONS'.
     
  2. Ceridwen018

    Ceridwen018 Well-Known Member

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    ***MOD Post***

    Moving to Religious Debates.
     
  3. Jaymes

    Jaymes The cake is a lie

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    What about warnings against things that harm nobody?
     
  4. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Again guidelines for us to use to make our stay in this world as productive as possible. You can enjoy life longer if you keep your body healthy. God does not punish me for eating shellfish. But there is a consequence for doing so. Shrimp is one of the oceans filters, and when I eat them, I am eating all the crap that got filtered out of the ocean. My body will be affected, but God is not punishing me. It's my choice. Free will is not free will if I'm being demanded.
     
  5. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Hmmm,
    ok so if somone murders someone, steals whenever they want (using their freewill) and never gets caught while on earth, lives a carefree life on earth completly disregarding Gods commandments until their time is up, they shouldnt worry about Judgement day when they stand befor God because well God wont punishing them? Afterall the 10 COMMANDMENTS according to you arnt really commandments, there just "guidelines for us to use to make our stay in this world as productive as possible"

    You know i have a theory about why the 10 COMMANDMENTS are called the 10 COMMANDMENTS and not the 10 guidelines or the 10 warnings or the 10 suggestions, i think its because its what a Righteous Holy Just God COMMANDS of his people.

    Your right about one thing though, God dosnt force them on us(hence the state of the world), he has given us the freewill, we get to decide to either disregard his commandments or to be Righteous and blameless of our own accord (which we have all failed to do, shows our need for a saviour), but he never said their wouldnt be consequence's for choosing our own way over his.

    What kind of Righteous Holy Just judge wouldnt punish transgressors of his own law? God will have his day of Justice and he wont overlook a single thing, thats how Righteous he is. Jesus made this clear.
    Matthew 12:36 - But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
     
  6. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men
    Mark 3:28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:
    Mark 4:21 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
    Luke 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
    Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
    Ephesians 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

    If someone sins against another person, karma is set into motion. Any person who sins will have consequences, though it might take many years for it to come back to them. But if the victim seeks revenge, then the sinner is off the hook for that one. He paid is debt to the victim and now the victim has created negative karma for himself. The lord says that revenge is his, and that we should forgive. But this is because of the spiritual law of Karma, not because God is punishing us. A person heavy with sin, will be heavy in heart, and if they die with a heavy heart, too dark to see God's light, then they may find themselves trapped in their own fear and greed and guilt, but that is a consequence of their actions, NOT A PUNISHMENT from God.
     
  7. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    FYI- the word commandment was translated from the hebrew word Mitsvah 'of code of wisdom'.
     
  8. Pah

    Pah Uber all member

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    It is not neccessary to make such garish posts. (see the original)
     
  9. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    I know they are truly wonderful verses :) Especially considering that when God forgives us he dosnt compromise on sin either. Its awsome to have such a Holy Righteous Just God! I know quite well that i am in desperate need of Gods forgiveness because of my sins, I also know that he is a Just Righteous God and will make sure my Sins are paid for, I thank Jesus for what he did for those who trust in him! Thats why i can be forgiven and have a Just God at the same time, Its truly Awsome, you really should consider it :)

    This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Romans 3:22-26

    Interesting so your god dosnt have a judgement day? Afterall he dosnt punish does he. Oh but hang on you said "The lord says that revenge is his" so when does he have his revenge? When does he see to it that Justice is served?
    So when you see murderering rapists in prison and they arnt sorry for what they have done, have no repentace whatsoever you still think that God wouldnt punish them for there sins? Afterall your friend karma is now what ensures Justice, pity it dosnt allways workout that way.

    But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. Mathew 5:44-45
    That demolishes your karma theory.
    If God causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous then i think its fair to say that karma is not Gods way of dealing with right and wrong. Those who dont repent and put their in Jesus as their saviour have to face God on Judgement day still in there sins, and karma has nothing to do with it.
     
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  10. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Did not mean to come across as garish. That was exitement. I had just learned that while gathering info for my debate. Was just sharing excitedly.
    There is only one God, my God is the same as yours, and Karma is just a word that is used to describe one of the spiritual laws. It is described in the KJV as "you reap what you sow." God's 'justice' is served through this law of Karma. And it is not up to us to decide how it is best for that person to feel what he has caused. To seek revenge would only cause them to retaliate, not know how you felt. As to the person who sins and feels no guilt. Any heart that is too heavy with sin at their time of death will be trapped by their sin, this is a consequence, as that person is given every opportunity to ask and be forgiven.
    This says to me that God loves us all EQUALLY. He loves the sinner just as much as the righteous. This says nothing about God grabbing a whip and beating his children for misbehaving. Of course there are consequences for negative behavior, but they are governed by the law of karma "you reap what you sow", and this law is God's law, not God's hand.
     
  11. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    You say you are in desperate need of forgiveness, therefore you will continue to need forgiveness. In Jesus name, you are forgiven. You should not feel a need for something that is already yours. You must forgive yourself, and believe that God has forgiven you already.
     
  12. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    "you reap what you sow" Id say thats a good promise that there will indeed be a judgement day. Especially considering that Justice is in not even close to being served this side of the grave.

    The bible makes it clear that God will punish sin, he hates it.

    It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:31

    You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. Exodus 20:7
    So the Lord will hold people Guilty of of breaking his commands.

    I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Luke 12:4-5

    Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth from death. Prov 11:4

    He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight. Luke 16:15

    Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit. Psalm 32:1-2
    Oh so the lord will hold the sin of some against them! Those whos sin hasnt already been paid for.

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment. Hebrews 9:27
     
  13. Feathers in Hair

    Feathers in Hair World's Tallest Hobbit

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    Steve, I fear all of your arguments come from one religion, and while it's wonderful that you follow that religion, not everyone does.

    I guess I should be asking Enhanced Spirit... Do you accept all religious views in response to your original post, or should we stick to one?
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    He is the one that insist we are serving the same God, Id like to know if thats the case then how he can disagree with the scriptures i posted. If he does disagree with any of them then we do serve different Gods, somthing ive been saying in other threads all along. However since he insist's they are the same ill use scriptures that describe the God i serve and if he wants to disagree then he will have to retract his claim that we serve the same God.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    [PART QUOTE=EnhancedSpirit]There is only one God, my God is the same as yours, and Karma is just a word that is used to describe one of the spiritual laws. It is described in the KJV as "you reap what you sow." God's 'justice' is served through this law of Karma. And it is not up to us to decide how it is best for that person to feel what he has caused. To seek revenge would only cause them to retaliate, not know how you felt. As to the person who sins and feels no guilt. Any heart that is too heavy with sin at their time of death will be trapped by their sin, this is a consequence, as that person is given every opportunity to ask and be forgiven.
    This says to me that God loves us all EQUALLY. He loves the sinner just as much as the righteous. This says nothing about God grabbing a whip and beating his children for misbehaving. Of course there are consequences for negative behavior, but they are governed by the law of karma "you reap what you sow", and this law is God's law, not God's hand.[/QUOTE]I agree with you to some point, but I believe that the 'punishment' is self inflicted; we have consciences (except for psychotics) and the 'you shall reap what you sow', karma, and tao are all the same.

    I watched two young girls in town today having a fight; (They were both sitting on a bench, next to each other). One of the punched her sister (I assume) a really nasty punch; as the 'puncher' swung back, she hit her arm and shoulder badly on the wall behind the bench. The three of us burst out laughing.:)
     
  16. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    First, I am a woman. Second, the bible you are quoting from has been translated from the original language, and some of the translation would have been subject to the writers opinion. So, any time someone quotes the bible to me, I take serious to study what God's message really is, not someones interpretation of it. I have tried to explain, that yes, there are negative consequences for negative actions, but I am trying to explain that there is a difference between a vindictive God and a just God. We are argueing over the same thing. Sinners will face what has been labled 'judgement', but all have the opportunity to be forgiven. I hear this question alot "how can a loving, forgiving God can be so cruel?" Well, the answer is he is not cruel, he is 'JUST'. Our 'punishment' is not from God, it is a consequence of our actions, therefore it is something we do to ourselves.
     
  17. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    This is God's law in action. A perfect example of how God's law of karma works in the 'real world'.
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Active Member

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    Ill say it again
    Do you think God will have his judgement day? why is it needed if karma is the only way justice is served?
    Afterall he dosnt punish does he. Oh but hang on you said "The lord says that revenge is his" so when does he have his revenge? When does he see to it that Justice is served?
     
  19. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I repeat, sinners will face what has been labled 'judgement day', but all have the opportunity to be forgiven. So, is it a just God who would allow one murderer into Heaven, but not another? Just because the one said he was sorry? God does not send us to hell. Hell is a consequence of not seeing the light, not seeing the truth, not freeing yourself from hate, greed . . . sin.
     
  20. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    I studied and prayed on your idea of fearing God. And found that this translates from the original language as respect, not fear. Jesus taught us not to fear. So this contradiction gnawed at me until I recieved this message, I am quoting it exactly as it came to me.
     
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