Horrorble
Well-Known Member
Yes a prostitute should be able to turn down a trick for whatever reason they wish
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Prostitution Argument (continued from Iceland to ban porn on the web because of children)
- Thread starter Zoe Doidge
- Start date
Yes a prostitute should be able to turn down a trick for whatever reason they wish
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
then no anti-discrimination laws are to apply?
Her business would run much like a church, with the exception of paying taxes?
Horrorble
Well-Known Member
This is the reason why you can't regulate it like other types of work because all women should be able to have sexual boundaries and select their sexual partners and have full control over their bodies. If you apply laws like a prostitute can't discriminate against a trick for whatever reason, right there, you are supporting rape.
Horrorble
Well-Known Member
Like I said a prostitute shouldn't have to have sex with every trick she should be able to decide who she wants to have sex with.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
So long as society thinks of people who engage in prostitution (whether male or female; customer or employee) as something noteworthy (as opposed to being so accustomed to this occurrence as to be utterly irrelevant) then there can and will be a whole rash of societal problems associated with it.
As far as the issue of human trafficking is concerned I don't think people are scrutinizing the issue as thoroughly as they should? Is this human trafficking INTO or Out Of the countries in question? I only ask because it seems patently obvious to me that in a country where prostitution is decriminalized or legalized, then it would be much easier to take your ill-gotten human trafficking gains and posting them as sex workers, than in countries where it is considered illegal.
Of course I'm not entirely convinced that human trafficking alone is sufficient to even consider a societal taboo, let alone illegality. Prohibition has, historically, always lent itself to the creation of black markets; where there is a want there is a will to sale. So any question of the criminality of prostitution, in my mind, has to rest on the hands of treatment of prostitutes and the health/welfare of all parties concerned.
It seems obvious to me that a government regulated brothel with mandatory weekly STI checks is a far cry from a sex shop set in the red light district of even another first world country (let alone some seedy front in a third world country), but I also don't know how to tell the difference between someone who was sold or coerced into sex service from someone who does so of their own volition...
Can anyone think of a definitive test to discriminate between voluntary sex workers and involuntary sex workers? Running a background check on prospective employees is all well and good, but something tells me that if your family is in debt to a cartel, then that fact probably won't pop up on a normal background check.
Of course this leaves me with an ends means calculation. If something is difficult to police effectively, and the real victims are hard to identify, then perhaps the police money and resources are better spent elsewhere attempting to deal with issues where the actions taken are more effective or the victims are easier to find/recognize? Also, before anyone calls me callous over this question, then I suggest they consider just how the real world operates. Do hospitals preferentially provide organs to the elderly or the young? Does more money get thrown into curing lung cancer or some obscure genetic disorder where only 1 in 10 million suffer?
MTF
As far as the issue of human trafficking is concerned I don't think people are scrutinizing the issue as thoroughly as they should? Is this human trafficking INTO or Out Of the countries in question? I only ask because it seems patently obvious to me that in a country where prostitution is decriminalized or legalized, then it would be much easier to take your ill-gotten human trafficking gains and posting them as sex workers, than in countries where it is considered illegal.
Of course I'm not entirely convinced that human trafficking alone is sufficient to even consider a societal taboo, let alone illegality. Prohibition has, historically, always lent itself to the creation of black markets; where there is a want there is a will to sale. So any question of the criminality of prostitution, in my mind, has to rest on the hands of treatment of prostitutes and the health/welfare of all parties concerned.
It seems obvious to me that a government regulated brothel with mandatory weekly STI checks is a far cry from a sex shop set in the red light district of even another first world country (let alone some seedy front in a third world country), but I also don't know how to tell the difference between someone who was sold or coerced into sex service from someone who does so of their own volition...
Can anyone think of a definitive test to discriminate between voluntary sex workers and involuntary sex workers? Running a background check on prospective employees is all well and good, but something tells me that if your family is in debt to a cartel, then that fact probably won't pop up on a normal background check.
Of course this leaves me with an ends means calculation. If something is difficult to police effectively, and the real victims are hard to identify, then perhaps the police money and resources are better spent elsewhere attempting to deal with issues where the actions taken are more effective or the victims are easier to find/recognize? Also, before anyone calls me callous over this question, then I suggest they consider just how the real world operates. Do hospitals preferentially provide organs to the elderly or the young? Does more money get thrown into curing lung cancer or some obscure genetic disorder where only 1 in 10 million suffer?
MTF
Any laws which seek either to outlaw prostitution or to regulate it would be best constructed in such a way to take the mental imprisonment factor into account. A slave is a slave in mind, not only in body. The war must be for the mind. Outlawing slave traffic goes a long way and helps a lot, but surely there are additional ways to fight slavery? These ought to be put to work as well.
A sex traffic ring works by employing sex slaves to help enslave each other. Here is an example taken from a 1917 study of how traffic rings worked at that time. Human trafficking works through exploiting the psychology of the imprisoned. Sex slaves do not run at every opportunity, despite not wanting to be sex slaves, despite the obvious unfairness. Years ago I myself met a kind of manageress from Norfolk, VA. She was only thirteen years old and began hanging with our church youth group, seeking salvation in Jesus Christ. Her job was to keep the other girls in line for a pimp, using her fists and other means. I had no idea at the time and just did not really understand the words she had said. I wasn't even sure that there were prostitutes in my state.
The conclusions of the Stanford Prison Experiment "...argued to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. " ( Wikip. article )
A sex traffic ring works by employing sex slaves to help enslave each other. Here is an example taken from a 1917 study of how traffic rings worked at that time. Human trafficking works through exploiting the psychology of the imprisoned. Sex slaves do not run at every opportunity, despite not wanting to be sex slaves, despite the obvious unfairness. Years ago I myself met a kind of manageress from Norfolk, VA. She was only thirteen years old and began hanging with our church youth group, seeking salvation in Jesus Christ. Her job was to keep the other girls in line for a pimp, using her fists and other means. I had no idea at the time and just did not really understand the words she had said. I wasn't even sure that there were prostitutes in my state.
The conclusions of the Stanford Prison Experiment "...argued to demonstrate the impressionability and obedience of people when provided with a legitimizing ideology and social and institutional support. " ( Wikip. article )
Last edited:
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
And again that is an example of society demonizing sex related professions. If sexuality and being sexy are not somehow evil, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with being an exotic dancer.
If it is your position that there is something inherently evil about sexuality, then you need to make your case.
If it is not your position that there is something inherently evil about sexuality, then exotic dancing and other sex related professions cannot possibly be immoral. They might be impractical and difficult to implement without unethical consequences, but by themselves there can be nothing immoral there.
If people are being placed in red light districts under false pretenses, then THAT is the crime: the crime is not having an occupation in the red light district. If red light districts did not exist, then would these people engaging in human trafficking or making deals under false pretenses disappear? The answer to that is a pretty solid "No." So what does it profit a society to use government resources on something it cannot possibly prevent?
Prohibition was possibly the worst government failing in US history. What should we learn from this?
MTF
If it is your position that there is something inherently evil about sexuality, then you need to make your case.
If it is not your position that there is something inherently evil about sexuality, then exotic dancing and other sex related professions cannot possibly be immoral. They might be impractical and difficult to implement without unethical consequences, but by themselves there can be nothing immoral there.
If people are being placed in red light districts under false pretenses, then THAT is the crime: the crime is not having an occupation in the red light district. If red light districts did not exist, then would these people engaging in human trafficking or making deals under false pretenses disappear? The answer to that is a pretty solid "No." So what does it profit a society to use government resources on something it cannot possibly prevent?
Prohibition was possibly the worst government failing in US history. What should we learn from this?
MTF
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I think the crime there was that said girls had been lied to, and coerced into a profession they ultimately didn't want to be part of.
Kinda reminds me of a short documentary I saw about immigrant construction workers in Dubai, lured to the country via "employment agents" who promised them decent pay and living conditions, only to find out once they got there that they had to live in worker's slums and were virtually slaves with little chance of getting out. That doesn't mean that being a construction worker is a bad thing hypothetically though, if you catch my drift.
Hypothetically speaking, in an ideal world I still think there would be a legitimate place for Sex work, whether it be dancing, escorting, films etc. To me, the issue isn't that people are providing sexual services in exchange for money, but instead it's the current condition of the industry, and how corrupt, immoral and downright criminal some elements of it currently are.
Man time forgot said:
Wherever you find prostitution you find enslaved women as well. Why is that? I can answer that. Realistically, along with a sex drive men also have some other drives that encourage us to do shady things like chain women up permanently. These other drives are what frighten women (and men) into outlawing sexual work. We are born with certain evil tendencies which I think must be subdued within ourselves. If that weren't the case, then sexual slavery wouldn't exist. It does exist, however, proving that we are born with such tendencies.
I conclude its not that society demonizes sex-related professions but that sexual profession has done a very poor job of separating the sexual side of clients from the demons in its clients. It seems powerless, in other words, to protect the workers from the clients. Show me a sexual industry free from enslavement. Show me prostitution that does not encourage the dark side of a man's nature.
ManTimeForgot
Temporally Challenged
I have no idea what urges you are talking about that encourages men to chain up women. I also cannot think of any inborn "evil tendencies" either. Some people are born with a predisposition towards psychopathy, but that is not the same as being born with a predisposition towards evil. There are plenty of high function psychopaths out there that lead perfectly acceptable civil lives.
The impetus to do harm for harm's sake or because the person in question possesses no attributable moral compass is found in roughly 15% of the population; we cannot and should not make our decisions solely based on what a functional minority would do with it. Perhaps you find it likely that things like alcohol (which leads to drunken driving and can contribute to spousal abuse) and tobacco (which kills millions each year) can and should be criminalized "for our own good?" Prohibition and black markets pretty often do far more harm than what normal people are willing to partake in. There is a big difference between Slapstick comedy and Snuff Films; notice that Slapstick is available for widespread consumption whereas most people simply want nothing to do with Snuff Films (not that they secretly desire to watch them, but rather they can't bothered to watch such things).
Why is it where you find prostitution you also find sexual slavery? Its rather simple. It is far easier to take your ill-gotten sex slaves and place them into a seedy independent brothel than it is to place them within whatever country you got them in where prostitution is ostensibly illegal. A government regulated and inspected brothel is very different than most independent brothels and a far cry from the black market options.
Long story short: The evils that humans do are usually a function of a very small minority who genuinely care enough about something in order to act on it. Most people simply can't be bothered to take up an issue as that would involve a great deal of effort, and I refuse to be characterized based on the lack of emotional/moral development of a minority.
MTF
The impetus to do harm for harm's sake or because the person in question possesses no attributable moral compass is found in roughly 15% of the population; we cannot and should not make our decisions solely based on what a functional minority would do with it. Perhaps you find it likely that things like alcohol (which leads to drunken driving and can contribute to spousal abuse) and tobacco (which kills millions each year) can and should be criminalized "for our own good?" Prohibition and black markets pretty often do far more harm than what normal people are willing to partake in. There is a big difference between Slapstick comedy and Snuff Films; notice that Slapstick is available for widespread consumption whereas most people simply want nothing to do with Snuff Films (not that they secretly desire to watch them, but rather they can't bothered to watch such things).
Why is it where you find prostitution you also find sexual slavery? Its rather simple. It is far easier to take your ill-gotten sex slaves and place them into a seedy independent brothel than it is to place them within whatever country you got them in where prostitution is ostensibly illegal. A government regulated and inspected brothel is very different than most independent brothels and a far cry from the black market options.
Long story short: The evils that humans do are usually a function of a very small minority who genuinely care enough about something in order to act on it. Most people simply can't be bothered to take up an issue as that would involve a great deal of effort, and I refuse to be characterized based on the lack of emotional/moral development of a minority.
MTF
That is either ignorance or denial. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the various sex industries. The sex industries seem to thrive on enslavement and fantasies about it more and more. The potential is a human one.Man Time Forgot said:
When pockets of humanity the world over spontaneously makes the same evil choices, its time to consider that the tendencies are inborn. Its not just something in the tea.
We are talking about sex industries, their clients and people in general -- not psychotics. I'm not talking about 'Evil', which is too broad a subject. People have many latent and unexplored desires, some of which appear to manifest when they are clients in the sex industries. Look at the direction that porn is going, and consider the fact that where there are sex industries there is enslavement. I'm talking about the natural tendencies people have the world over to control and seduce, to own and to manipulate. They don't have to be psychotic to have those tendencies.
I heard it was 10%, but harm for harm's sake is not what I'm talking about.
I do not suggest making decisions solely based on that, so I agree with you on that.
No, but some people have superstitiously attributed such behaviors to alcohol or to demons or something in the water. What they attribute to demons I recognize as a trend in sex industries, though not exclusively in sex industries.
Your one possible explanation is a guess that doesn't take into account the potentials in men and women, particularly the excitement of slavery. There is a pleasure in it, and where there is pleasure there is something to tempt everyone not just psychotics. You assume that enslavement appears due to the presence of psychotic individuals and that brothels are merely convenient for them.
Pardon but I'm not speaking of your character but of the similarities you share with all people everywhere. We all share a lot in common. Character is what you do with what you have.
DallasApple
Depends Upon My Mood..
If a woman is perfectly sane..who wants to make a living giving BJ's ..and having anal sex etc...wants to do that?I have NO issue with it..Problem is there are not enough sane women who would do that.
Aquitaine
Well-Known Member
I admit the vast majority of people working in the "Sex Industry" shouldn't be there. Off the top of my head, I'm gonna say about 98% of 'em.
However, I do think (hypothetically) if the said industry was properly regulated, safe and professionally maintained, then I don't see why any person Male/Female/Intersex should be denied the option of pursuing a job like that.
The way I see it, the "Sex Industry" should basically be populated by Nina Hartleys, from all genders!
