problems with the catholic church

[san miguel]

hey, i was raised a catholic since i was little, but do to recent events i have discovered that i am just a follower of the Lord and His servant. I opened this thread to open up individuals' eyes who are Catholic. The reason is because this organized church has been lying to their people by giving them false doctrines. This doctrine of "just wars" has to be the biggest lie i have ever heard. This doctrine promotes individuals to kill when it is deemed necessary, but when did Jesus say it was alright to kill. Rome started this religion and was constantly going to war at the time so of course Rome had to make a doctrine that deemed it was right to kill people when Rome was at war. Jesus preached to be a pacifist, which means never causing any harm to any individual no matter what the reason. Whether a person steals from you (Jesus said if someone steals your shirt, then give that individual your coat as well), not to be mean to sinners (Jesus had dinner at Matthew's house with many sinners and Jesus said "that the sinners who are lost are the people Jesus is trying to save because people who are good do not need to be saved"), do not be bias even if your family is involved (when Jesus was preaching his mother and family came to him, but the building was packed so they could not enter. A person said your mother is outside and Jesus said my mother and brothers are people who believe in the Father), and finally Jesus said to give up one's possessions and spread the word of God (however, the church states that it is alright to kill people in order to defend land even though land is another form of Earthly possessions that Jesus stated an individual should give up). Every time you are in a situation just think what would Jesus do because Jesus understood God's word complete and humans should try and strive to be Christ like. People say "I confess my sins because I'm a sinner."Well, why don't people try to stop sinning rather than excepting sin and constantly sinning and hoping God will always be there to forgive one's sin. If you believe that i have fairly hit the problems with the Catholic church respond. And if you believe in Jesus or not do you believe the best way to live is be a pacifist (like Gandhi, Dali Lama, etc...)?

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I strongly admire people like Mahatma Gandhi and any person dedicated to the way of non-violence. I also admit to having given the just war doctrine little attention. It's probably worth noting that there are many other branches of Christianity which, today at any rate, make far more use of it. The papacies of both the current Pope, Benedict XVI, and John Paul II have been quite critical of the recent war in Iraq by the American lead coalition as well as of the military strategies of the Israeli government. Pope Benedict, when Prefect for the CDF, was also highly critical of perceived Marxist trends in South-American Christianity because of its politicization and materialization of the Gospel, even though it had truly just concerns.

Of all the things within Catholicism to be concerned about, I would say the theory of just-war should rank quite far down the list.

I would start, for example, with your claim that Catholicism was started by Rome, which is historically incorrect.

 

[Katzpur]

My thoughts are that you are a disenfranchized ex-Catholic with a bone to pick. I don't pay a whole lot of attention to criticisms of my church directed at it by former members, so I think I'll do the same in this case.

 

[Beaudreaux]

The reason is because [The Catholic Church] has been lying to their people by giving them false doctrines. This doctrine of "just wars" has to be the biggest lie i have ever heard.

I actually think the Just Wars doctrine is spot on in its intent. While it would be really really nice if we all just got along, the fact is that we do not. There are many typess of killing; murder, police shootings, killing on the field of battle, etc.. In modern society, we have to allow for some types of killing that are good.

For instance, should we do away with law enforcement's ability to use lethal force? When police come under gunfire while trying to stop lawbreakers, what are they supposed to use? Bad language? [gratuitous Aliens reference complete]

When Hilter's blitzkrieg started rolling across Europe, do you think the war to stop him was wrong?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I actually think the Just Wars doctrine is spot on in its intent. While it would be really really nice if we all just got along, the fact is that we do not. There are many typess of killing; murder, police shootings, killing on the field of battle, etc.. In modern society, we have to allow for some types of killing that are good.

I agree... to a certain extent. Personally, I agree with "Just War" doctrine. As a saying of another culture goes, "the sword that kills is the sword that gives life."

However, I don't have to square this doctrine with the idea of a God who has accounted for all the true needs of humanity in His divine plan (which, IMO, apparently removes all motivations for going to war), or the moral positions about the absolute sanctity of innocent life that the Church employs to support its position on abortion (which, IMO, prohibits all taking of innocent life, and in my thinking would include the incidental deaths of non-combatants).

I guess I see "Just War" doctrine as fine on its own, but inconsistent with other Catholic teachings.

 

[ayani]

speaking to Christians ~

well, there have been many Roman Catholics who have rejected even the idea of a "just war" and put themselves at odds with the opinions / teachings of the church at large.

there have been many Christian in general who have also rejected the idea of war as good in any circumstance, and have refused to fight.

there are many things which can define "Christian". what we are all called to do is to reflect, honor, represent, and preach Christ. to understand who He is in relation to God, surrender to Him by faith, and make our lives about Him.

every church may have points we disagree with, or would question. what should unite us is the One who is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He is the solid rock- the cornerstone, and the true vine. when others fail or disappoint us, we can look to Him, who is unchanging, and who lives. His words and doings have been preserved for us in scripture, and He is bodily there to guide and correct us if we let Him in.

 

[san miguel]

sorry i did not mean Rome started the religion, but definitely took hold of the religion and expanded it (which is good in a way since it spread God's word across the world). however, Jesus quotes isiah 29:13 "these people show honor to me with words, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is worthless. The things they teach are nothing but human rules." So i think if you follow the Just War doctrine then you are not obeying God's word or what Jesus preached. people tell me killing for the sake of good is a lesser evil, but it is still an evil and if people keep commiting evil, then humanity seems doomed until the Son of Man returns. I do not mean to critisize the Catholic church or any other religion for that matter, i just want people to understand God's word and not the word's from humans. God'sword is perfect and humans are not so why is it that people think they are right, but if their thinking goes against God doesn't that make it wrong since God is always right? Does this make sense or no?

 

[Darz]

As mentioned before, I believe Nazi Germany threw that idea of "pacifism no matter what" right out the window. Can you really say it was not a just war to fight against that evil?

Pacifism is an ideal. We don't live in an ideal world, so sometimes you have to be realistic and use other alternatives to solve the problem.

 

[Allfather]

The idea of a "just war" is certainly not confined to the Catholic Church.

Look at the Crusades. We can go on and on about how the Catholic Church has facilitated the killing of thousands of people in the name of God, but look at the context.The original means for the Crusades were not so devious, IMO.

The Turks are expanding into Anatolia, part of the Byzantine Empire, The Emperor Alexius I calls on Pope Urban II in the West for aid. Urban then rallies all of western Europe to aid based on the protection of the religion What better way to "rally the troops" than to make it not only a fight for land, but for the continuation of their salvation plan. Now, the later part and subsequent crusades are questionable, but Rome has always been proactive in wars. They fight their enemies to keep them from attacking, and did so since Roman invasion of Brittania and Germania in the 50s B.C.E.

Still further, look at the Battle of Tours, 732 AD. Charles Martel defends modern day France from Moorish invasion, was recognized by the emperor and his grandson, Charlemagne, is made the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire.

The fact of the matter is that the validity of "just war" is based on which side you're on. Since most of our civilized history comes from Europe and Europe has, in large, been controlled by the church, and since Judeo-Christian thought pervades our culture, we see this phenomena exist in the forefront with the Catholic Church.

Is the Church inherently right? Not necessarily. Are they wrong? Still, not necessarily.

"No one ever goes into battle thinking God is on the other side"
-Terry Goodkind, a favorite author

 

[crystalonyx]

The biggest problem with the Catholic church at present is their official stance on abortion and family planning, which is causing billions to live in hunger and poverty. They need to move into the 21st century on these issues.

 

[Jordan St. Francis]

I agree that there are contexts in which war might be just- but it is always on account of the failure of human beings. It is a question of the lesser evil. (I disagree with Penguin here regarding abortion, as bearing a child is rarely, if ever, a greater evil than killing it) . I also agree with Allfather that the Crusades were not as dubious as is often portrayed- at least from a human point of view. It's mixture with religious rhetoric is my main concern with those events.

The biggest problem with the Catholic church at present is their official stance on abortion and family planning, which is causing billions to live in hunger and poverty. They need to move into the 21st century on these issues

The question, for us anyways, is not whether we are in the 21st century or the 1st- its about what we understand human sexuality to actually be. The pro-creative dimension of human sexuality is intrinsic to it what it is, and this is not changed by technological innovation. From a Catholic POV sex carries in it the potential for children, and any one who engages in it should be aware of the responsbility that comes with sex.

I have sympathy for those who need birth control in certain situations. To think that abortion, however, is a matter of progress is deplorable to me. We should increase in our awareness of the sacredness of human life- not regress as we move into the future.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I agree that there are contexts in which war might be just- but it is always on account of the failure of human beings. It is a question of the lesser evil. (I disagree with Penguin here regarding abortion, as bearing a child is rarely, if ever, a greater evil than killing it).

But compare that to, say, the Second Raid on Schweinfurt by Allied bombers during WWII:

- around 650 Allied airmen killed or captured (mainly killed).
- more than a thousand civilians killed, including many children.
- temporary production delays at the ball bearing works (the target of the raid), but these were absorbed by going into their large inventory stockpiles, so manufacture of the Nazi war machine continued unabated while the factory was repaired.

Would this action have been justified under "Just War" doctrine? Was it the lesser evil?

Frankly, I see more direct benefit and less suffering in abortion than I do in many actions in war, especially those that were poorly planned or are intended to accomplish nebulous, hard-to-define strategic goals.

The same logic I would use to say "hampering the production of war equipment by our enemy is worth the lives of ____ airmen" or "the value of liberty is so great that ____ innocent lives are an acceptable cost to defend it" allows me to say "a better life for the mother and her family, along with the value of this woman's liberty, is worth one abortion." I really don't understand a mindset that allows for one but not the other.