Problems With Religion

[Booko]

And what, exactly, do YOU see when YOU look inside?

Something that's none of your business.

 

[Popeyesays]

Meditation as it really works:

"It is an axiomatic fact that while you meditate you are speaking with your own spirit. In that state of mind you put certain questions to your spirit and the spirit answers: the light breaks forth and the reality is revealed. 175
You cannot apply the name 'man' to any being void of this faculty of meditation; without it he would be a mere animal, lower than the beasts.
Through the faculty of meditation man attains to eternal life; through it he receives the breath of the Holy Spirit -- the bestowal of the Spirit is given in reflection and meditation.
The spirit of man is itself informed and strengthened during meditation; through it affairs of which man knew nothing are unfolded before his view. Through it he receives Divine inspiration, through it he receives heavenly food.
Meditation is the key for opening the doors of mysteries. In that state man abstracts himself: in that state man withdraws himself from all outside objects; in that subjective mood he is immersed in the ocean of spiritual life and can unfold the secrets of things-in-themselves. To illustrate this, think of man as endowed with two kinds of sight; when the power of insight is being used the outward power of vision does not see.
This faculty of meditation frees man from the animal nature, discerns the reality of things, puts man in touch with God.
This faculty brings forth from the invisible plane the sciences and arts. Through the meditative faculty inventions are made possible, colossal undertakings are carried out; through it governments can run smoothly. Through this faculty man enters into the very Kingdom of God.
Nevertheless some thoughts are useless to man; they are like waves moving in the sea without result. But 176 if the faculty of meditation is bathed in the inner light and characterized with divine attributes, the results will be confirmed.
The meditative faculty is akin to the mirror; if you put it before earthly objects it will reflect them. Therefore if the spirit of man is contemplating earthly subjects he will be informed of these.
But if you turn the mirror of your spirits heavenwards, the heavenly constellations and the rays of the Sun of Reality will be reflected in your hearts, and the virtues of the Kingdom will be obtained.
Therefore let us keep this faculty rightly directed -- turning it to the heavenly Sun and not to earthly objects -- so that we may discover the secrets of the Kingdom, and comprehend the allegories of the Bible and the mysteries of the spirit.
May we indeed become mirrors reflecting the heavenly realities, and may we become so pure as to reflect the stars of heaven."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 174)

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

Medotation, the other side of the coin:

"O Salman! All that the sages and mystics have said or written have never exceeded, nor can they ever hope to exceed, the limitations to which man's finite mind hath been strictly subjected. To whatever heights the mind of the most exalted of men may soar, however great the depths which the detached and understanding heart can penetrate, such mind and heart can never transcend that which is the creature of their own conceptions and the product of their own thoughts. The meditations of the profoundest thinker, the devotions of the holiest of saints, the highest expressions of praise from either 318 human pen or tongue, are but a reflection of that which hath been created within themselves, through the revelation of the Lord, their God. Whoever pondereth this truth in his heart will readily admit that there are certain limits which no human being can possibly transgress. Every attempt which, from the beginning that hath no beginning, hath been made to visualize and know God is limited by the exigencies of His own creation -- a creation which He, through the operation of His own Will and for the purposes of none other but His own Self, hath called into being. Immeasurably exalted is He above the strivings of human mind to grasp His Essence, or of human tongue to describe His mystery. No tie of direct intercourse can ever bind Him to the things He hath created, nor can the most abstruse and most remote allusions of His creatures do justice to His being. Through His world-pervading Will He hath brought into being all created things. He is and hath ever been veiled in the ancient eternity of His own exalted and indivisible Essence, and will everlastingly continue to remain concealed in His inaccessible majesty and glory. All that is in heaven and all that is in the earth have come to exist at His bidding, and by His Will all have stepped out of utter nothingness into the realm of being. How can, therefore, the creature which the Word of God hath fashioned comprehend the nature of Him Who is the Ancient of Days? " 319
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 317)

 

[sojourner]

Mere empty words. You may know them by their FRUITS!



Maybe an Egyptian Mystic!?

Peace & Love

Thanks for the nod of approval. We appreciate your heartfelt support.

First of all, one would think that if the Dalai Llama held an affinity for the Church, that would be good enough for any other master.
Second, these may be "empty words" to you, but they are truth. We invite you to embrace that.
Third, could you be specific a) as to which false prophets you are referring by your statement, b) why, specifically, you believe it to be true about them, and c) what, specifically (if anything) they have done is relevant for the Church?

***

The only record we have says that God revealed God's self to Moses. There was no "master" involved. all else is simply conjecture.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

Quote A.B-S.

And what, exactly, do YOU see when YOU look inside?

Booko:

Something that's none of your business.

Then it definitely cannot be the LOVE of God!

Peace and Love

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Then it definitely cannot be the LOVE of God!

That was as rude as it was pitiful. Your judgement of the fruits of her introspection are entirely worthless and out of line. Apologize.

 

[Popeyesays]

That was as rude as it was pitiful. Your judgement of the fruits of her introspection are entirely worthless and out of line. Apologize.

As I get older, I come more and more in line with Robert heinlein's point of view. If duels were legal and people carried guns manners would improve across the board.

But that is just frustration speaking, Ben should bump noses with someone in real-life and learn to deal with his rude manners on a personal level.

Regards,
Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

That was as rude as it was pitiful. Your judgement of the fruits of her introspection are entirely worthless and out of line. Apologize.

Well let's look at the debate:

It started by me saying that we already have everything we need to know (Spiritually) inside.

Booko agreed, and said look inside.

I then asked: What do you see when you look inside?

Booko replied: None of your business!

So I replied: Then it cannot be the Love of God!

What is rude or pitiful about this? If someone truly experiences the Love of God within, surely they would want to share openly with all who inquire? Who would respond by saying "None of your business"? Who was actually being somewhat rude here? Who owes an apology to whom?

I used to post on the CARM forum, and there was someone there who called himself 'imJR'. He used to follow me all over the forum with responses exactly like yours - are you by any chance this same person?

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

As I get older, I come more and more in line with Robert heinlein's point of view. If duels were legal and people carried guns manners would improve across the board.

But that is just frustration speaking, Ben should bump noses with someone in real-life and learn to deal with his rude manners on a personal level.

Regards,
Scott

See the reply I just posted to Jay. And then tell me honestly, who, in your opinion was actually being rude.

 

[Popeyesays]

Well let's look at the debate:

It started by me saying that we already have everything we need to know (Spiritually) inside.

Booko agreed, and said look inside.

I then asked: What do you see when you look inside?

Booko replied: None of your business!

So I replied: Then it cannot be the Love of God!

What is rude or pitiful about this? If someone truly experiences the Love of God within, surely they would want to share openly with all who inquire? Who would respond by saying "None of your business"? Who was actually being somewhat rude here? Who owes an apology to whom?

I used to post on the CARM forum, and there was someone there who called himself 'imJR'. He used to follow me all over the forum with responses exactly like yours - are you by any chance this same person?

The fact is that baha`i's use meditation to "call themselves to account each day" for what they do and say.

The results of that meditation are so intensely personal that many would just as soon not say what they "see" in that process.

"31. O SON OF BEING!
Bring thyself to account each day ere thou art summoned to a reckoning; for death, unheralded, shall come upon thee and thou shalt be called to give account for thy deeds."
(Baha'u'llah, The Arabic Hidden Words)

As to those who think they can find ultimate truth within themselves, Baha`u'llah gives a warning: "It behoveth thee to consecrate thyself to the Will of God. Whatsoever hath been revealed in His Tablets is but a reflection of His Will. So complete must be thy consecration, that every trace of worldly desire will be washed from thine heart. This is the meaning of true unity.
Do thou beseech God to enable thee to remain steadfast in this path, and to aid thee to guide the peoples of the world to Him Who is the manifest and sovereign Ruler, Who hath revealed Himself in a distinct attire, Who giveth utterance to a Divine and specific Message. This is the essence of faith and certitude. They that are the worshipers of the idol which their imaginations have carved, and who call it Inner Reality, such men are in truth accounted among the heathen. To this hath the All-Merciful borne witness in His Tablets. He, verily, is the All-Knowing, the All-Wise."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 338)

Regards,
Scott

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

The fact is that baha`i's use meditation to "call themselves to account each day" for what they do and say.

The results of that meditation are so intensely personal that many would just as soon not say what they "see" in that process.

So, instead of bluntly saying: "It's none of your business" , wouldn't it be polite and 'loving' to explain that it is a very personal and private experience? :yes:

My experiences of God are nothing like that. They are wondrous experiences of Love and Light. Nothing secret or private. They are for EVERYONE who truly seeks the Lord. :yes:

 

[Popeyesays]

So, instead of bluntly saying: "It's none of your business" , wouldn't it be polite and 'loving' to explain that it is a very personal and private experience? :yes:

My experiences of God are nothing like that. They are wondrous experiences of Love and Light. Nothing secret or private. They are for EVERYONE who truly seeks the Lord. :yes:

That's where we part company. I believe that any personal epiphany is from God alright, but that personal epiphany is not revelation for everyone.

Jesus brought not an epiphany but a Revelation. Moses didn't bring epiphanies, he brought revelation. Baha`u'll, Muhammad, Zoroaster, The Bab, Buddha, Abraham were not bring epiphanies--They were speaking the word of God for all mankind.

i do not believe that you are being given that kind of Message, and you do.

Let me express my concern that you and your living master are sharing a follie a deux, and you both need to think about it.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Booko]

I then asked: What do you see when you look inside?

Booko replied: None of your business!

No, actually I said:

"None of your business."

I am not given to font-hyperbole and would appreciate it if you do not modify my words to make it appear that I communicate like a 9-year old girl on Neopets.

What is rude or pitiful about this? If someone truly experiences the Love of God within, surely they would want to share openly with all who inquire? Who would respond by saying "None of your business"? Who was actually being somewhat rude here? Who owes an apology to whom?

Someone who has a sense of privacy and has an inkling the person is asking a rhetorical question just to prove how enlightened he is would give such an answer.

I owe no apology to you for making a statement of fact.

This is a debate forum, not the touchy-feely zone.

If you aren't interested in debate, you might try a discussion forum instead.

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

That's where we part company. I believe that any personal epiphany is from God alright, but that personal epiphany is not revelation for everyone.

Jesus brought not an epiphany but a Revelation. Moses didn't bring epiphanies, he brought revelation. Baha`u'll, Muhammad, Zoroaster, The Bab, Buddha, Abraham were not bring epiphanies--They were speaking the word of God for all mankind.

i do not believe that you are being given that kind of Message, and you do.

Let me express my concern that you and your living master are sharing a follie a deux, and you both need to think about it.

I do not believe that God reveals 'private', 'secret', or merely 'personal' Revelations or Epiphanies. God wishes to be known fully to all people, but it is us (our minds) who reject Him.

For what reason would God hold secrets from those who truly love Him - to them He reveals all knowledge. Surely it is only those who are ashamed of something, or who wish to be in some way deceptive, that want to keep secrets.

Peace & Love

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

For what reason would God hold secrets from those who truly love Him - to them He reveals all knowledge.

So, you have had all knowledge revealed to you. Excellent. This should be easy to verify, but first, just to be clear, ...

Surely it is only those who are ashamed of something, or who wish to be in some way deceptive, that want to keep secrets.

Are you claiming Booko is ashamed or deceitful? Also, with regards to "surely", surely you can understand how someone might not wish to share personal insights with someone who, for example, is neither trusted nor respected can you not?

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

So, you have had all knowledge revealed to you. Excellent. This should be easy to verify, but first, just to be clear, ...Are you claiming Booko is ashamed or deceitful? Also, with regards to "surely", surely you can understand how someone might not wish to share personal insights with someone who, for example, is neither trusted nor respected can you not?

First of all, let us be clear as to what I actually said:
Quote:
I do not believe that God reveals 'private', 'secret', or merely 'personal' Revelations or Epiphanies. God wishes to be known fully to all people, but it is us (our minds) who reject Him.

For what reason would God hold secrets from those who truly love Him - to them He reveals all knowledge. Surely it is only those who are ashamed of something, or who wish to be in some way deceptive, that want to keep secrets.

What I meant by this is that God neither hides nor holds secrets from anyone. It is US who hide from God, and thus make His Knowledge and revelations unknown, or, we assume in our ignorance, secret. So no, I was not inferring that Booko was in any way ashamed or deceitful.

I know also that it is pointless telling some people about God, as they are in no way interested, but this does not mean that I am keeping any secrets. I will gladly tell anyone who is open to Truth (not mere religion) all that I have been revealed.

Also, understand that I am far from becoming an enlightened soul (a Buddha). I have been revealed the Light and other Mysteries, but am yet to learn everything these Mysteries reveal.

I hope you understand clearly what I have tried to say.

Peace & Love

 

[A. Ben-Shema]

No, actually I said:

"None of your business."

I am not given to font-hyperbole and would appreciate it if you do not modify my words to make it appear that I communicate like a 9-year old girl on Neopets.

Someone who has a sense of privacy and has an inkling the person is asking a rhetorical question just to prove how enlightened he is would give such an answer.

I owe no apology to you for making a statement of fact.

This is a debate forum, not the touchy-feely zone.

If you aren't interested in debate, you might try a discussion forum instead.

Sorry, I did not realize that debate rules out politeness!

 

[Popeyesays]

It isn't that God holds back, it is that we are not ready to hear it.

You recognize Christ as one of those 'living masters' Christ said, "I have much to tell you, but you cannot bear it now."

Why would He lie.

The Prophet speaks as God bids Him to speak. The Prophet knows whatever He needs to know, but God will only allow so much to be revealed at a time.

"XIX. To every discerning and illuminated heart it is evident that God, the unknowable Essence, the Divine Being, is immensely exalted beyond every human attribute, such as corporeal existence, ascent and descent, egress and regress. Far be it from His glory that human tongue should adequately recount 47 His praise, or that human heart comprehend His fathomless mystery. He is, and hath ever been, veiled in the ancient eternity of His Essence, and will remain in His Reality everlastingly hidden from the sight of men. "No vision taketh in Him, but He taketh in all vision; He is the Subtile, the All-Perceiving."...
The door of the knowledge of the Ancient of Days being thus closed in the face of all beings, the Source of infinite grace, according to His saying, "His grace hath transcended all things; My grace hath encompassed them all," hath caused those luminous Gems of Holiness to appear out of the realm of the spirit, in the noble form of the human temple, and be made manifest unto all men, that they may impart unto the world the mysteries of the unchangeable Being, and tell of the subtleties of His imperishable Essence.
These sanctified Mirrors, these Day Springs of ancient glory, are, one and all, the Exponents on earth of Him Who is the central Orb of the universe, its Essence and ultimate Purpose. From Him proceed their knowledge and power; from Him is derived their sovereignty. The beauty of their countenance is but a reflection of His image, and their revelation a sign of His deathless glory. They are the Treasuries of Divine knowledge, and the Repositories of celestial wisdom. Through them is transmitted a grace that is infinite, and by them is revealed the Light that can never fade.... These Tabernacles of Holiness, 48 these Primal Mirrors which reflect the light of unfading glory, are but expressions of Him Who is the Invisible of the Invisibles. By the revelation of these Gems of Divine virtue all the names and attributes of God, such as knowledge and power, sovereignty and dominion, mercy and wisdom, glory, bounty, and grace, are made manifest."
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 47)

 

[Booko]

Surely it is only those who are ashamed of something, or who wish to be in some way deceptive, that want to keep secrets.

Fine. Please post your Social Security Number here immediately, or be known by your own standards as someone who is deceptive or ashamed of something.

 

[Booko]

Sorry, I did not realize that debate rules out politeness!

I did not realize that the standards of "politeness" included a requirement to acquiece to your every whim.

As for politeness, sirrah, I suggest you look in a mirror.

It is not remotely polite to make the sort of demands you have made to someone so wholly unconnected to you.

It is intrusive on the first count, and by now has gone far over the threshold into bald-faced rudeness.

Do you pop by your neighbor's house on a Saturday eve and demand they "share" and let you watch them in the midst of marital bliss too?

Or do you in fact acknowledge there may be some things in life that are simply...none of your business?