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Problems - The Root Cause

nPeace

Veteran Member
I though of this after a conversation, in which one person indicated that peace and harmony was not absolutely defined, but relative to each persons view.
It reminded me of what people say about truth - that truth is relative to each person, hence there is no absolute truth.
That says to me, in other words, everything is determined by what we think or decide, individually.

This worldview really reminded me of the profound truth that was written centuries ago - the root cause of every problem on the face of the earth.
It starts in Genesis.

(Genesis 3:1-5)
1 Now the serpent was the most cautious of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?” 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden. 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden: ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die. 5For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.

(Genesis 3:22)
22Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. . . .

There are various ideas on how these verses should be understood.
I appreciate the way they are understood by Jehovah's Witnesses... not because I am one, but because their understanding is in line with the context, and makes more sense, if we take the Bible as a complete book, inspired by God, as Paul and Jesus said.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
Luke 24:27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was written in all the Scriptures about Himself.

In a nutshell, the understanding is that the tree of knowledge of good and bad was a real tree which God placed in the garden as a representation of his right as sovereign, to decide, or set the rules for his creation, as to what is good and bad.

In other words, there is only one set law or standard, on which to determine what is good, and what is bad. People do not decide that for themselves.
So for example, John Doe does not get to decide, X is good for me, and Y is bad for me, while Jane Doe is deciding X is bad for me, and Y is good for me.

We see the problem.
There is disharmony, disorder, disunity - even chaos.
This independence from God - the supreme law giver, is the root of all problems.

When Adam and Eve chose to disobey God, and eat fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad, they were really rebelling against God's sovereignty - his right to rule them, and determine good and bad for them.
They chose to decide for themselves what was good, and what was bad.
This was instigated by the original serpent - the Devil, who encouraged the rebellion.

Hence, problem after problem, and why man can never fix the problems, because they cannot agree on any set standard.
Each person decides what is good, bad, peace, harmony, etc.

It's crazy, to me, that these cannot be identified in a definite way, but is left to subjective opinion. Crazy.
However, the same book that identifies the root cause of problems, also makes it clear that chaos, disorder... can only end, when one allows the source of true righteousness to determine what is good, or bad, for them.
1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not a God of disorder, but of peace--as in all the churches of the saints.
Isaiah 32:17 The work of righteousness will be peace; the service of righteousness will be quiet confidence forever.

Is it not better to have one set standard, and law - from the supreme law giver - for all people to live by, especially considering that the evidence clearly shows, man does not know his way? Jeremiah 10:23
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Is it not better to have one set standard, and law - from the supreme law giver - for all people to live by, especially considering that the evidence clearly shows, man does not know his way?

As a secular humanist, I believe we CAN solve our own problems without needing to rely on supernatural beings.

That said, I also believe that if we were all honest about our core values, we'd find we have much in common. If we based our societies on shared values, I think we'd do just fine. And I see no reason why folks with radically different values couldn't set up their own separate societies.

Now I suspect that these radically different societies would struggle to survive, but perhaps not.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
As a secular humanist, I believe we CAN solve our own problems without needing to rely on supernatural beings.

That said, I also believe that if we were all honest about our core values, we'd find we have much in common. If we based our societies on shared values, I think we'd do just fine. And I see no reason why folks with radically different values couldn't set up their own separate societies.

Now I suspect that these radically different societies would struggle to survive, but perhaps not.
What core values are those?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Is it not better to have one set standard, and law - from the supreme law giver - for all people to live by, especially considering that the evidence clearly shows, man does not know his way? Jeremiah 10:23

No. I think it is far better for us to find our own way, adjusting our understanding as we go. That allows for freedom as well as improvement and change.

And it avoids the horrible problems of theocracy and totalitarianism.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
No. I think it is far better for us to find our own way, adjusting our understanding as we go. That allows for freedom as well as improvement and change.

And it avoids the horrible problems of theocracy and totalitarianism.

No, we need useful definitions. That will remove all the problems and ambiguity.
Just the prefect list of definitions. :D
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Is it not better to have one set standard, and law - from the supreme law giver - for all people to live by, especially considering that the evidence clearly shows, man does not know his way? Jeremiah 10:23

Sure, maybe, if one showed up to give it.

Most religious laws are dated by the human culture they came from.

I expect God to show up one day and proclaim "Do what you will and live with the consequences".
Least that is pretty much how it has always been.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Discussion rather than violence, peace, charity, equal opportunity, empathy, honesty...
Uhhh
I don't know what percent want that.

The guy who assaulted me was a family.
man, had a good job.

He wasn't looking for a discussion and appeared to lack empathy.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Sure, maybe, if one showed up to give it.

Most religious laws are dated by the human culture they came from.

I expect God to show up one day and proclaim "Do what you will and live with the consequences".
Least that is pretty much how it has always been.
Why show up and tell us what we already know
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure, maybe, if one showed up to give it.

Most religious laws are dated by the human culture they came from.

I expect God to show up one day and proclaim "Do what you will and live with the consequences".
Least that is pretty much how it has always been.

I imagine a picture with the heavens parting and a huge hand coming out of the clouds pointing at someone on the ground. And then a powerful voice calls out:

THINK FOR YOURSELF!
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Why show up and tell us what we already know

Many people in the world still think differently.
They had these "Prophets of God" telling them otherwise.
Imagine the ensuing chaos at the Vatican.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Discussion rather than violence, peace, charity, equal opportunity, empathy, honesty...
Violence? What's that?
Peace? What's that?
Charity, equal opportunity, empathy, honesty? What are those?

According to some, those are viewed differently by different individuals. So your peace is not the next door neighbors' peace.
Hence the OP.

So what will you be discussing? How does that go?
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Okay, so rather than make fun at the supreme being... How about an advanced civilization with a set law, and rules they know works for the good.
@mikkel_the_dane @Polymath257 would that not be better, than us trying to find our way, and creating chaos and wrecking havoc along the way?
After all, we see that man has dominated man to his harm... for centuries, as Solomon observed.
Ecclesiastes 8:9 All this I have seen, applying my mind to every deed that is done under the sun; there is a time when one man lords it over another to his own detriment.

Or do you still wish for independence - to decide for yourself what is good and what is bad?
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Okay, so rather than make fun at the supreme being... How about an advanced civilization with a set law, and rules they know works for the good.
@mikkel_the_dane @Polymath257 would that not be better, than us trying to find our way, and creating chaos and wrecking havoc along the way?
After all, we see that man has dominated man to his harm... for centuries, as Solomon observed.
Ecclesiastes 8:9 All this I have seen, applying my mind to every deed that is done under the sun; there is a time when one man lords it over another to his own detriment.

Or do you still wish for independence - to decide for yourself what is good and what is bad?

I don't decide it. We negotiate in practice. Using different means.

You believe in an eternal good that works for all time. I can't observe that being the case.
So your solution is that we in effect become angels. Perfect rational beings. But that is not what humans are in practice.

So trial, error, adjust and repeat. That is how it appears in works. Even for the idea of God.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I don't decide it.
If not you, who does, for you?

We negotiate in practice. Using different means.
We?
Then why do "we" go in different directions?
Do these different practices not lead to diferent ideas, views, conclusions?

You believe in an eternal good that works for all time. I can't observe that being the case.
Well, I do see it working, because thus far, it has accomplished what man has been trying to do for centuries, and has failed.

It has united people of all races, cultures, nationalities... in every corner of the globe.
That's what peace and harmony is, as far as their true definition goes.

So your solution is that we in effect become angels. Perfect rational beings. But that is not what humans are in practice.
No. I didn't say that. You didn't hear that from me.
I mentioned the solution in the OP. You read it, I hope.

So trial, error, adjust and repeat. That is how it appears in works.
It doesn't work. Hasn't worked for "eons".

Even for the idea of God.
True. The idea has failed as well, because God is not an idea. Those who promote that concept can never achieve true peace.
 
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