Post-Synodal Apostolic Exhortation (Amazonia)

[Maximus]

Greetings. This long awaited document has been released:

“Querida Amazonia”: Post-Synodal Exhortation to the People of God and to All Persons of Good Will (2 February 2020) | Francis

Thoughts? No marriage for priests.

 

[exchemist]

Greetings. This long awaited document has been released:

“Querida Amazonia”: Post-Synodal Exhortation to the People of God and to All Persons of Good Will (2 February 2020) | Francis

Thoughts? No marriage for priests.

So I see. I confess I had been hoping to see a dispensation for this, or an indication towards women priests. But not yet, it seems.

 

[pearl]

Thanks for posting this.
[49] The wisdom of the original peoples of the Amazon region “inspires care and respect for creation, with a clear consciousness of its limits, and prohibits its abuse. To abuse nature is to abuse our ancestors, our brothers and sisters, creation and the Creator, and to mortgage the future”.[50] When the indigenous peoples “remain on their land, they themselves care for it best”,[51] provided that they do not let themselves be taken in by the siren songs and the self-serving proposals of power groups. The harm done to nature affects those peoples in a very direct and verifiable way, since, in their words, “we are water, air, earth and life of the environment created by God. For this reason, we demand an end to the mistreatment and destruction of mother Earth. The land has blood, and it is bleeding; the multinationals have cut the veins of our mother Earth”.[52]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is another wakeup call that will be ignored by the powers that be. In many areas Querida Amazonia speaks to our own plight as more and more power and greed have become a god.

108. None of this needs to create enmity between us. In a true spirit of dialogue, we grow in our ability to grasp the significance of what others say and do, even if we cannot accept it as our own conviction. In this way, it becomes possible to be frank and open about our beliefs, while continuing to discuss, to seek points of contact, and above all, to work and struggle together for the good of the Amazon region. The strength of what unites all of us as Christians is supremely important. We can be so attentive to what divides us that at times we no longer appreciate or value what unites us. And what unites us is what lets us remain in this world without being swallowed up by its immanence, its spiritual emptiness, its complacent selfishness, its consumerist and self-destructive individualism.

109. All of us, as Christians, are united by faith in God, the Father who gives us life and loves us so greatly. We are united by faith in Jesus Christ, the one Saviour, who set us free by his precious blood and his glorious resurrection. We are united by our desire for his word that guides our steps. We are united by the fire of the Spirit, who sends us forth on mission. We are united by the new commandment that Jesus left us, by the pursuit of the civilization of love and by passion for the kingdom that the Lord calls us to build with him. We are united by the struggle for peace and justice. We are united by the conviction that not everything ends with this life, but that we are called to the heavenly banquet, where God will wipe away every tear and take up all that we did for those who suffer.
110. All this unites us. How can we not struggle together? How can we not pray and work together, side by side, to defend the poor of the Amazon region, to show the sacred countenance of the Lord, and to care for his work of creation?

How indeed.

 

[pearl]

So I see. I confess I had been hoping to see a dispensation for this, or an indication towards women priests. But not yet, it seems.

Do you think are ready for another schism?

 

[Maximus]

Thanks for posting this.
[49] The wisdom of the original peoples of the Amazon region “inspires care and respect for creation, with a clear consciousness of its limits, and prohibits its abuse. To abuse nature is to abuse our ancestors, our brothers and sisters, creation and the Creator, and to mortgage the future”.[50] When the indigenous peoples “remain on their land, they themselves care for it best”,[51] provided that they do not let themselves be taken in by the siren songs and the self-serving proposals of power groups. The harm done to nature affects those peoples in a very direct and verifiable way, since, in their words, “we are water, air, earth and life of the environment created by God. For this reason, we demand an end to the mistreatment and destruction of mother Earth. The land has blood, and it is bleeding; the multinationals have cut the veins of our mother Earth”.[52]

Unfortunately, I'm afraid that it is another wakeup call that will be ignored by the powers that be. In many areas Querida Amazonia speaks to our own plight as more and more power and greed have become a god.

108. None of this needs to create enmity between us. In a true spirit of dialogue, we grow in our ability to grasp the significance of what others say and do, even if we cannot accept it as our own conviction. In this way, it becomes possible to be frank and open about our beliefs, while continuing to discuss, to seek points of contact, and above all, to work and struggle together for the good of the Amazon region. The strength of what unites all of us as Christians is supremely important. We can be so attentive to what divides us that at times we no longer appreciate or value what unites us. And what unites us is what lets us remain in this world without being swallowed up by its immanence, its spiritual emptiness, its complacent selfishness, its consumerist and self-destructive individualism.

109. All of us, as Christians, are united by faith in God, the Father who gives us life and loves us so greatly. We are united by faith in Jesus Christ, the one Saviour, who set us free by his precious blood and his glorious resurrection. We are united by our desire for his word that guides our steps. We are united by the fire of the Spirit, who sends us forth on mission. We are united by the new commandment that Jesus left us, by the pursuit of the civilization of love and by passion for the kingdom that the Lord calls us to build with him. We are united by the struggle for peace and justice. We are united by the conviction that not everything ends with this life, but that we are called to the heavenly banquet, where God will wipe away every tear and take up all that we did for those who suffer.
110. All this unites us. How can we not struggle together? How can we not pray and work together, side by side, to defend the poor of the Amazon region, to show the sacred countenance of the Lord, and to care for his work of creation?

How indeed.

Such wonderful, beautiful statements in this document. I have so much love for the Pope and hope you and I are both wrong in thinking that these words will not make a difference.


----

I dream of an Amazon region that fights for the rights of the poor, the original peoples and the least of our brothers and sisters, where their voices can be heard and their dignity advanced.

I dream of an Amazon region that can preserve its distinctive cultural riches, where the beauty of our humanity shines forth in so many varied ways.

I dream of an Amazon region that can jealously preserve its overwhelming natural beauty and the superabundant life teeming in its rivers and forests.

I dream of Christian communities capable of generous commitment, incarnate in the Amazon region, and giving the Church new faces with Amazonian features.

 

[Maximus]

So I see. I confess I had been hoping to see a dispensation for this, or an indication towards women priests. But not yet, it seems.

Yes, I guess that was just one foot too far right now, for the Pope and the Church.

 

[exchemist]

Do you think are ready for another schism?

I suppose that's the point, sadly.

 

[pearl]

I was both amazed and disappointed by some of the negative feedback concerning
Querida Amazonia.

Then, he said, the pope told the bishops that months or even years go into producing documents and what gets reported by the media “is one line” or that “the pope didn’t have the courage to change the rules of the Church.”
Pope shares with U.S. bishops his frustration with reaction to Amazon text

 

[Maximus]

I was both amazed and disappointed by some of the negative feedback concerning
Querida Amazonia.

Then, he said, the pope told the bishops that months or even years go into producing documents and what gets reported by the media “is one line” or that “the pope didn’t have the courage to change the rules of the Church.”
Pope shares with U.S. bishops his frustration with reaction to Amazon text

"You could see his consternation when he said that for some people it was all about celibacy and not about the Amazon,”

Understandable frustration!

 

[Quiddity]

So I see. I confess I had been hoping to see a dispensation for this, or an indication towards women priests. But not yet, it seems.

Not possible.

It's just something that can't be changed.

 

[exchemist]

Not possible.

It's just something that can't be changed.

Of course it can. It is just a tradition. Priestly celibacy only became a rule in the Middle Ages - and has never been a requirement in the Orthodox church, whose priests are recognised by the Catholic church. And in fact married Anglican priests can convert to Catholicism and be ordained.

 

[Quiddity]

Of course it can. It is just a tradition. Priestly celibacy only became a rule in the Middle Ages - and has never been a requirement in the Orthodox church, whose priests are recognised by the Catholic church. And in fact married Anglican priests can convert to Catholicism and be ordained.

I was speaking specifically of women becoming priest.

 

[exchemist]

I was speaking specifically of women becoming priest.

Oh I see.

Well that too is a matter of tradition. It strikes me as fairly absurd to suggest there can be any sound theological reason why a woman cannot be ordained. The Anglicans have got over this. Why can't the Catholics?

 

[Quiddity]

Oh I see.

Well that too is a matter of tradition. It strikes me as fairly absurd to suggest there can be any sound theological reason why a woman cannot be ordained. The Anglicans have got over this. Why can't the Catholics?

It's theologically bindinding nonetheless. It's Tradition with a capital T and the Church has no authority to change it no matter how unpopular it may be. Deacons is as close as it's gotten and history indicates Bishops griping about them entering the altar. It's got deep roots to Judaic traditions and the Church has many masculine and feminine characteristics throughout.

Females ruling altars was actually the norm during ancient times in pagan religions throughout. In many ways, a male only clergy was the odd thing to do.

It has little to do with the usual trite and ridiculous reasons give when objecting to this. It matters little to them however.

 

[exchemist]

It's theologically bindinding nonetheless. It's Tradition with a capital T and the Church has no authority to change it no matter how unpopular it may be. Deacons is as close as it's gotten and history indicates Bishops griping about them entering the altar. It's got deep roots to Judaic traditions and the Church has many masculine and feminine characteristics throughout.

Females ruling altars was actually the norm during ancient times in pagan religions throughout. In many ways, a male only clergy was the odd thing to do.

It has little to do with the usual trite and ridiculous reasons give when objecting to this. It matters little to them however.

Theologically binding? Can you explain how that works? My understanding is that ordination passes on the Apostolic succession of the priesthood from the bishop to the ordinand. So if the bishop decides to ordain a woman, why can't he?

What theological impediment is there to that?

 

[Quiddity]

Theologically binding? Can you explain how that works? My understanding is that ordination passes on the Apostolic succession of the priesthood from the bishop to the ordinand. So if the bishop decides to ordain a woman, why can't he?

What theological impediment is there to that?

That is correct, a Bishop may ordain priests. It is however incorrect to say it is completely autonomous. As it stands, it requires Rome’s approval to do so. It wasn’t always like this; however, Bishops have had more autonomy in the past since communication and logistical impediments made it a difficult model to follow. The ideal system has always been to stay within the good graces of Rome. Rome and most of Christendom have always held that that the priesthood should be maintained as male. Putting aside some of the non-theological reasons that recent science is unpacking (see Dr. Jordan Peterson on the differences between men and women), the mere fact that Tradition has always held it to be so, the reality that Christ choose all men (without a care of conforming to religious and social norms mind you), it comes down to the phenotypical characteristics of theological realities we have always held to be true. Like the Church being the bride of Christ, like Christians having a Holy Mother, like God being sexless, etc. These are things we hold to be true and changeless as Ordinatio Sacerdotalis pretty much laid the topic to rest and is really no longer open to debate.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (May 22, 1994) | John Paul II


Some of these realities we have more clarity than others. Like having Holy Mother be the one to crush the head of the serpent for example. A female used to crush Satan. Why a female? These things have been long contemplated.

 

[exchemist]

That is correct, a Bishop may ordain priests. It is however incorrect to say it is completely autonomous. As it stands, it requires Rome’s approval to do so. It wasn’t always like this; however, Bishops have had more autonomy in the past since communication and logistical impediments made it a difficult model to follow. The ideal system has always been to stay within the good graces of Rome. Rome and most of Christendom have always held that that the priesthood should be maintained as male. Putting aside some of the non-theological reasons that recent science is unpacking (see Dr. Jordan Peterson on the differences between men and women), the mere fact that Tradition has always held it to be so, the reality that Christ choose all men (without a care of conforming to religious and social norms mind you), it comes down to the phenotypical characteristics of theological realities we have always held to be true. Like the Church being the bride of Christ, like Christians having a Holy Mother, like God being sexless, etc. These are things we hold to be true and changeless as Ordinatio Sacerdotalis pretty much laid the topic to rest and is really no longer open to debate.

Ordinatio Sacerdotalis (May 22, 1994) | John Paul II


Some of these realities we have more clarity than others. Like having Holy Mother be the one to crush the head of the serpent for example. A female used to crush Satan. Why a female? These things have been long contemplated.

Thanks for the interesting background. However I note John Paul II''s statement is not an ex cathedra pronouncement and can therefore be challenged. I find it wholly unpersuasive. It seems to amount to little more than simply reasserting the primacy of tradition. He makes no real argument that there is anything in Christ's choice of disciples to exclude women. OK he says it was not just due to culture at the time, but offers no real argument it was anything more than that - and then hastily segues instead into stuff about the value of women in the church. Very unconvincing.

In my opinion this issue will not go away, especially as the number of vocations is declining and as the equal position of women in society is becoming more an more strongly established around the world. But it may take another half century or so.

 

[Quiddity]

Thanks for the interesting background. However I note John Paul II''s statement is not an ex cathedra pronouncement and can therefore be challenged. I find it wholly unpersuasive. It seems to amount to little more than simply reasserting the primacy of tradition. He makes no real argument that there is anything in Christ's choice of disciples to exclude women. OK he says it was not just due to culture at the time, but offers no real argument it was anything more than that - and then hastily segues instead into stuff about the value of women in the church. Very unconvincing.

In my opinion this issue will not go away, especially as the number of vocations is declining and as the equal position of women in society is becoming more an more strongly established around the world. But it may take another half century or so.

It’s superfluous to disregard things simply because it’s not ex-cathedra. There are levels of teaching authority that carry limits for the mind and will. Evolution of doctrine is entirely in one direction. This is why for example John Henry Newman avoids using the very term evolution when speaking of doctrine. It was less precise. Doctrine can only develop, not become something else entirely. Women becoming priests has a very faint history at best.; Most of it really being with female deacons.

You seem like an in vogue and well-rounded soul to know that no amount of social pressure or persecution will make the Church fold. We’re gangster like that. We get persecuted and killed, repeat.

Give this a try:

Why Women Can't Be Catholic Priests

You are however correct that this is one of the weaker one's theological speaking. It is nonetheless something we are bound too.

 

[exchemist]

It’s superfluous to disregard things simply because it’s not ex-cathedra. There are levels of teaching authority that carry limits for the mind and will. Evolution of doctrine is entirely in one direction. This is why for example John Henry Newman avoids using the very term evolution when speaking of doctrine. It was less precise. Doctrine can only develop, not become something else entirely. Women becoming priests has a very faint history at best.; Most of it really being with female deacons.

You seem like an in vogue and well-rounded soul to know that no amount of social pressure or persecution will make the Church fold. We’re gangster like that. We get persecuted and killed, repeat.

Give this a try:

Why Women Can't Be Catholic Priests

You are however correct that this is one of the weaker one's theological speaking. It is nonetheless something we are bound too.

Well OK but the church, actually, does evolve and so does its teaching. And so they both should. After all, what is the point of claiming authority for a living priesthood, as well as a fixed body of ancient scripture, if it is not to make doctrine more dynamic? The Catholic church has an enviable record of not being pushed around by fads and fashions, and for that I respect it. But I think the direction of travel on this issue will lead to women priests one day, though probably not in my lifetime.

 

[Quiddity]

Well OK but the church, actually, does evolve and so does its teaching. And so they both should. After all, what is the point of claiming authority for a living priesthood, as well as a fixed body of ancient scripture, if it is not to make doctrine more dynamic? The Catholic church has an enviable record of not being pushed around by fads and fashions, and for that I respect it. But I think the direction of travel on this issue will lead to women priests one day, though probably not in my lifetime.

It's an in vogue thought and I don't say that to be dismissive or a jerk, it's just that I've invested a lot of time shuffling through archives (and I'm nothing compared to others) to know that evolution of doctrine isn't what you think it is. The preserving of something is precisely that......to preserve. Whatever fluidity or dynamic nuggets you may see are always a clarification of what was.