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Possession

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Actually I what I mean is, out of the bulk of purported possession cases, how many possessed were/are believers or religious.
Out the little readings I've done about the subject, demons appear to affect to those who previously believe in that kind of events.
In highly Catholic populations, for example, seems to be accepted, common, I'd even say.
Places with a higher numbers of atheists or non believers in general on the other hand...this what I wonder.
That may be quite true... but perhaps for different reasons...

If you are an atheist, you aren't necessarily seeking, pursuing or delving in the spiritual realm. They aren't "inviting" spirits to come into their lives. Not that an atheists can't be but if you aren't seeking and delving into the spirit realm, obviously you are less likely to encounter the situation.

My wife's family, though Catholic... by birth, read tarot cards and mixed religion with witchcraft. So, yes, in many parts of the world Catholicism and demon possession can occur (at least in the Latin Catholicism.)
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Do you believe in demonic or any other kind of possession? What does your religion say about it? How can it be differentiated from mental illness?

Yes. Demons can possess people, animals, infest areas, cause temptations, oppress people, and so on. They are cast out by the power of the Lord Jesus via exorcism. We can also bind demons and IIRC (there is probably a specific definition here I am missing, I need to get my book on anti-demon prayers again) deliver people from them by the Lord. As for how it is differentiated from mental illness one thing would be supernatural things such as extraordinary strength, knowing things and languages they otherwise would not know, and that kind of thing. For finer points I am not sure on that matter.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Both demonic possession and mental illnesses are described in traditional Jewish sources as separate ailments. I don't know how people were able to tell them apart, though. I haven't looked into the subject.

That's interesting, because when I read the new testament, my sense of it is was that demon possession was the general catch-all category for much of the abnormal, or anti-social behavior. That is to say, a 'wide' spectrum of behavior ranging from the man living in the cave by the pig herd, that jesus encountered, to the woman that paul rebuked for talking about him too loudly. So I guess I wouldn't have thought that a distinction would be made
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
That's interesting, because when I read the new testament, my sense of it is was that demon possession was the general catch-all category for much of the abnormal, or anti-social behavior. That is to say, a 'wide' spectrum of behavior ranging from the man living in the cave by the pig herd, that jesus encountered, to the woman that paul rebuked for talking about him too loudly. So I guess I wouldn't have thought that a distinction would be made
The Christian Testament hardly accurately represents Judaism.
 

Irate State

Äkta människor
That may be quite true... but perhaps for different reasons...

If you are an atheist, you aren't necessarily seeking, pursuing or delving in the spiritual realm. They aren't "inviting" spirits to come into their lives. Not that an atheists can't be but if you aren't seeking and delving into the spirit realm, obviously you are less likely to encounter the situation.

My wife's family, though Catholic... by birth, read tarot cards and mixed religion with witchcraft. So, yes, in many parts of the world Catholicism and demon possession can occur (at least in the Latin Catholicism.)

I was thinking Latin America especially, yes. I'm from there.
But then incongruity or even the opposite comes to mind. Atheists are often accused as the modern day witches and vehicles of the devil, put on this Earth to tempt and try and stray people from godly paths.
So what is it? You(and I'm not saying you you specifically, just in general) can't haven't have it both ways, are we atheists of the devil by definition, or incapable of attracting demonic forces out of our sheer incredulity?
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I was thinking Latin America especially, yes. I'm from there.
But then incongruity or even the opposite comes to mind. Atheists are often accused as the modern day witches and vehicles of the devil, put on this Earth to tempt and try and stray people from godly paths.
So what is it? You(and I'm not saying you you specifically, just in general) can't haven't have it both ways, are we atheists of the devil by definition, or incapable of attracting demonic forces out of our sheer incredulity?

Of course you will find all kinds of people in any sector. Name calling gets hurled in every direction.

We also have a problem with definitions as in what do people really mean when they say "you are of the devil". Jesus called that to religious people in his day.

Yes, atheists are accused, faith people are accused, but God is trying to reach all people. Paul was a murderer but got converted. Nebuchadnezzar was a worshipper of false god's and then recognized the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So basically we are all made by God and God is just trying to reach us.

In the Christian viewpoint, what is worse, an atheist or a self-righteous religious person? Nothing... both sin. (that is the standard for any comparison)

Anyhow, I don't call atheists "atheists of the devil". (I understand you weren't speaking to me--just saying)

PS - I didn't say atheists "couldn't" attract them... but they aren't seeking demons so are less likely. Even Jewish Saul sought out through a person who served the dark side. Anyone can be influenced by a spirit.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
Examples?

From St. Mark's Gospel chapter 5: "And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes. And as he was getting out of the boat, immediately from the tombs a man with an unclean spirit went to meet him, who lived among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him any longer, not even with a chain, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the shackles had been shattered. And no one was strong enough to subdue him. And during every night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was crying out and cutting himself with stones."

The languages thing comes from accounts of exorcists AFAIK, so looking there would probably yield it.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
From St. Mark's Gospel chapter 5: "And they came to the other side of the sea, to the region of the Gerasenes. And as he was getting out of the boat, immediately from the tombs a man with an unclean spirit went to meet him, who lived among the tombs. And no one was able to bind him any longer, not even with a chain, because he had often been bound with shackles and chains, and the chains had been torn apart by him, and the shackles had been shattered. And no one was strong enough to subdue him. And during every night and day among the tombs and on the mountains he was crying out and cutting himself with stones."

The languages thing comes from accounts of exorcists AFAIK, so looking there would probably yield it.

To me, it is a fantastic and folkloric sort of flight of fancy, that passage there. I appreciate it for that, most of all. But who had ever heard of such a thing? I live across from a graveyard. I have no fear of a strongman dwelling about behind the stone of old aunt lanette.

Try to think about the story, only in slow motion in regard to the details. Think hard about what all the things in that passage would mean in reality.

First of all, the passage implies that the man was subdued. He was subdued long enough to chained up, and imprisoned to some degree, apparently insufficiently. He flexed his bicep, too hard for the iron band. How many times was this tried? If it failed once, wouldn't they increase the security measures, like finding a prison to place him into?

Then there is the 'cutting himself with stones' thing. I am not a doctor, but I cannot imagine that such behavior would be sustainable for the sixteen hours he would be awake everyday.

What did he eat. What caused him to stay where he was, away from the living? Was it the demon within him, or was it some part of his human conscious, or sense of consciousness, that would cause him to have enough sentience to avoid most others.

The story also reminds me of the Greek idea of the minotaur, and how it lived, though I may be mistaken, I will have to review that
 

Harel13

Am Yisrael Chai
Staff member
Premium Member
That's interesting, because when I read the new testament, my sense of it is was that demon possession was the general catch-all category for much of the abnormal, or anti-social behavior. That is to say, a 'wide' spectrum of behavior ranging from the man living in the cave by the pig herd, that jesus encountered, to the woman that paul rebuked for talking about him too loudly. So I guess I wouldn't have thought that a distinction would be made
It could be that the authors of the NT lacked so much Jewish knowledge that they thought the two went together. Wouldn't be their first goof in the field.
 

Lain

Well-Known Member
To me, it is a fantastic and folkloric sort of flight of fancy, that passage there. I appreciate it for that, most of all. But who had ever heard of such a thing? I live across from a graveyard. I have no fear of a strongman dwelling about behind the stone of old aunt lanette.

Try to think about the story, only in slow motion in regard to the details. Think hard about what all the things in that passage would mean in reality.

First of all, the passage implies that the man was subdued. He was subdued long enough to chained up, and imprisoned to some degree, apparently insufficiently. He flexed his bicep, too hard for the iron band. How many times was this tried? If it failed once, wouldn't they increase the security measures, like finding a prison to place him into?

Then there is the 'cutting himself with stones' thing. I am not a doctor, but I cannot imagine that such behavior would be sustainable for the sixteen hours he would be awake everyday.

What did he eat. What caused him to stay where he was, away from the living? Was it the demon within him, or was it some part of his human conscious, or sense of consciousness, that would cause him to have enough sentience to avoid most others.

The story also reminds me of the Greek idea of the minotaur, and how it lived, though I may be mistaken, I will have to review that

Looking at the passage slower all it seems to mean to me is this: they tried to bind him before and failed, gave up, and he was always crying out and/or cutting himself with stones. I do not know what he ate if he ate at all, and I presume he was away from civilization (mostly, a graveyard is sort of a border-area) because of the vast amount of demons that were in him and they prefer to be in such a place (hence the desert fathers constant battles with demons in the middle of nowhere). It displays Christ's power than He easily defeats all of the demons.

But we definitely have different senses for what is fantastic or not, to me this is entirely believable.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
How evil is man in science by intent?

First he poses maths as his mental answer. So we look at him and realise yes you were evil minded as science maths mental chosen by men.

Is it any wonder that you then said an irradiated human was possessed mentally?

No. Instead you pretend it is medical only. So medical as science also backs you up. Healer natural advice knows you are a liar.

Attack is the correct human medical healer answer. Survived or dies the irradiation event the truth. Variation depends on fallout to cooling conditions......personal to the human victim.

Hearing of voice caused by irradiated DNA inherited changed baby brain chemicals.

Voice is machine man designed AI transmitted recorded with image. Why the victim chemically bio changed heard voices as proof human science caused it.

Why variations to the human man owned gods mass spirit gases changed was satanic science caused.

Today all he is trying to deduce is new satanic human scientific data via an intense human life study.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
(My understanding is a mixture of my own thoughts and what I was taught in Baptist church growing up)
The Holy Spirit protects you from possession. If you have the Holy Spirit in you, through the blood of Jesus, then you are possessed by the Holy Spirit. But if you’re not possessed by the Holy Spirit, then you are susceptible to be possessed by demons, you are unguarded. Being unsaved isn’t a guarantee that you will be possessed, but demons can use you at will to further their purposes. On the other hand, even if you have the Holy Spirit, you can be influenced by demonic forces, but they cannot possess you.
We Baha'is don't believe in demons or a literal devil. The devil is the lower animal ego part of oneself. Nothing to prove that, just stating the Baha'i belief.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Unproven demons with unproven powers are powerful incentives to convert people to an unproven religion, and keep them from straying. Fear subjugates. Fear was used by Father Junipero Serra, to build his many missions in California. Using fear, Father Serra enslaved Native Americans, and many were put to death or beaten severely (all in the name of the Lord and in the name of goodness....of course).
Using fear to convert people is a disgusting tactic, I agree. Native Americans were more advanced in some ways than the Western people that invaded them.
 

Truthseeker

Non-debating member when I can help myself
Do you believe in demonic or any other kind of possession? What does your religion say about it? How can it be differentiated from mental illness?
There are no literal demons or literal devil. We can be ruled almost entirely by out lower animal ego self, which is what the devil metaphorically is. Mental illness is something entirely different. It implies no moral failing.
 

Irate State

Äkta människor
PS - I didn't say atheists "couldn't" attract them... but they aren't seeking demons so are less likely. Even Jewish Saul sought out through a person who served the dark side. Anyone can be influenced by a spirit.
Of course you will find all kinds of people in any sector. Name calling gets hurled in every direction.

We also have a problem with definitions as in what do people really mean when they say "you are of the devil". Jesus called that to religious people in his day.

Yes, atheists are accused, faith people are accused, but God is trying to reach all people. Paul was a murderer but got converted. Nebuchadnezzar was a worshipper of false god's and then recognized the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. So basically we are all made by God and God is just trying to reach us.

In the Christian viewpoint, what is worse, an atheist or a self-righteous religious person? Nothing... both sin. (that is the standard for any comparison)

Anyhow, I don't call atheists "atheists of the devil". (I understand you weren't speaking to me--just saying)

PS - I didn't say atheists "couldn't" attract them... but they aren't seeking demons so are less likely. Even Jewish Saul sought out through a person who served the dark side. Anyone can be influenced by a spirit.

How can anyone be influenced by a spirit?
How can you tell mental diseases from possession?
How can someone be sure that others especially non believers are affected by spirits and demons? What's the methodology employed?
Why someone who's an non believer is automatically sinning?
I want to know cause everything I read it's just subjective. It's reduced to a belief.
Then my belief must at least as good as any other, I'm guessing.
My belief is that there are no demons nor possession. Only gullible people trained in fear by their indoctrination.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Do you believe in demonic or any other kind of possession? What does your religion say about it? How can it be differentiated from mental illness?
It is not difficult to be possessed by spirits. All you need is a bottle of Vodka.

Ciao

- viole
 
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