Populist Xenophobia moves The Netherlands to the Right

[icehorse]

The fact that you'll kill the messenger (NPR) without actually addressing the content of the article isn't surprising, but it is disappointing. Other than agreeing the word invasion is a dog whistle to the right, you ignored the point to focus on the sins of the multiculturalism of the left. Seems to me you're trying to shift the conversation to the direction you want it to go, and I'm not joining you in that. We can drop it here because I'm not gonna go down one of your well-worn paths. There's a reason I'm rarely inclined to make an initial post to you anymore. I might answer you, as I have here, but not likely initiate, because the conversation never gets anywhere.

I'm responding to your last paragraph first.

WE ARE DEBATING! WE DISAGREE! So of course my job is to poke holes in your stances, or to provide different perspectives. The fact that you choose to make it personal is usually a sign that your arguments are not strong.

These migrations aren't just a matter of Europe saying "come on in!" It's a very complicated situation of mass human upheaval as the result of wars and famine and other issues that make life untenable in the migrants' home countries and they undertake what is a dangerous and difficult journey to find a better, safer life. These immigrants are not doing it "in the name of multiculturalism" but they are arriving regardless and European countries have to find humanitarian ways of dealing with the crises.

Those who are in a position to offer help must always be careful to not endanger their own well being in the process. If a person is unhealthy, their ability to help others is limited. For example, in wartime a healthy surgeon can save many lives. But if that surgeon falls ill, her illness will have a huge negative impact. She must remain healthy to maximize the help she can provide. So far, so good?

What many moderate Europeans are experiencing is that their societies are becoming unhealthy as a result of mass immigration. This is not a sustainable solution. And it's not bigoted or xenophobic to state those realities.

 

[anna.]

@icehorse is not wrong. The controlling elites in nations all across the globe tout multiculturalism and humanitarian empathy as their moral justification for importing lots of cheap laborers that will drive down wages all across the economic spectrum. And this includes their democratic toadies in the U.S.,. The only reason republicans are against it (not in action, but only in speeches) is because they have whipped up such a fervor against it amongst their base that they now have to pretend they're against it. But in fact they are just as beholding to their corporate overlords desire for cheap labor as the democrats are. None of them want to stop the "invasion" that they so love to pretend they care so much about.

Oh, please. If the various European governments shot all migrants on sight when they came ashore or crossed their borders, where would all your talk of toadies and controlling elites be? When a boats of thousands of migrants washes up on the shore of Italy, what should Italy do?

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/19/1200424028/italy-has-no-clear-plan-for-10-000-north-african-migrants-who-landed-on-resort-i

 

[anna.]

I'm responding to your last paragraph first.

WE ARE DEBATING! WE DISAGREE! So of course my job is to poke holes in your stances, or to provide different perspectives. The fact that you choose to make it personal is usually a sign that your arguments are not strong.

If you're gonna shout, you're gonna get nothing from me. Your "job" isn't my concern. You tend to personalize yourself into the conversation anyway, you don't even need me for that. I tried earlier to let you know I didn't want your personalization. I wanted to focus on the word "invasion." Look how far we got with that.

Those who are in a position to offer help must always be careful to not endanger their own well being in the process. If a person is unhealthy, their ability to help others is limited. For example, in wartime a healthy surgeon can save many lives. But if that surgeon falls ill, her illness will have a huge negative impact. She must remain healthy to maximize the help she can provide. So far, so good?

What many moderate Europeans are experiencing is that their societies are becoming unhealthy as a result of mass immigration. This is not a sustainable solution. And it's not bigoted or xenophobic to state those realities.

Define "unhealthy." I think a lot of the "unhealthy" is hyped up by rumors and misinformation spread by social media to cause fear and mistrust.

I agree that the large numbers pose serious problems for governments in many places around the world. These problems should not be tackled in a way that dehumanizes migrants.

 

[icehorse]

Your "job" isn't my concern.

Debaters have jobs in debates. At a high level, our jobs are to poke holes in each other's arguments.

Define "unhealthy." I think a lot of the "unhealthy" is hyped up by rumors and misinformation spread by social media to cause fear and mistrust.

Examples would be increased occurrences of rape and other violent assaults. Increased unemployment. Unwillingness to assimilate into the host culture. Behaving in ways that are antithetical to the host culture.

These problems should not be tackled in a way that dehumanizes migrants.

Beliefs frequently correlate with behaviors. If your religion tells you to be misogynistic and antisemitic and homophobic, you might well behave that way. This is not dehumanizing, it's simply recognizing the truth.

And we must not forget that everyone is free to change their minds. If an immigrant wants a new life in a better society, they ought to question why the state they're leaving failed.

 

[anna.]

Examples would be increased occurrences of rape and other violent assaults. Increased unemployment. Unwillingness to assimilate into the host culture. Behaving in ways that are antithetical to the host culture.

Classic fear-mongering.

Stats, please, showing that immigrants rape at a higher rate than natives of the country they've migrated to.

And we must not forget that everyone is free to change their minds. If an immigrant wants a new life in a better society, they ought to question why the state they're leaving failed.

So easy to say, isn't it, when you're not the one on the boat?

 

[icehorse]

Classic fear-mongering.

Stats, please, showing that immigrants rape at a higher rate than natives of the country they've migrated to.

Educate yourself. Your lack of knowledge on a topic is not a bar the rest of us have to lower ourselves to.

So easy to say, isn't it, when you're not the one on the boat?

Many times in my life I've had to abandon ideas I held closely. That's life.

 

[anna.]

Educate yourself. Your lack of knowledge on a topic is not a bar the rest of us have to lower ourselves to.

So, you have no stats to back your claim? Good to know.

(I love how you pontificate on personalizing and then go out there and... personalize.)

Many times in my life I've had to abandon ideas I held closely. That's life.

Let me know when you're fleeing war, famine, or genocide and your "abandoning ideas" will hold more weight.

 

[icehorse]

So, you have no stats to back your claim? Good to know.

I've got stats, but I think YOU are the one implying extraordinary claims and as such it's not my job to educate you.

(I love how you pontificate on personalizing and then go out there and... personalize.)

A lack of knowledge is not a criticism. But you ought to at least own it.

Let me know when you're fleeing war, famine, or genocide and your "abandoning ideas" will hold more weight.

What Europeans have been experiencing for decades is that those who are fleeing, mostly do not abandon their failed ideas, even after they've been given sanctuary.

 

[anna.]

I've got stats, but I think YOU are the one implying extraordinary claims and as such it's not my job to educate you.

You made the assertion, it's on you to support it. If you've got stats, let's see them.

A lack of knowledge is not a criticism. But you ought to at least own it.

It's definitely making it personal. But you do you!

What Europeans have been experiencing for decades is that those who are fleeing, mostly do not abandon their failed ideas, even after they've been given sanctuary.

Let's see some supporting information from the European experience. How immigrants have been an "unhealthy" influence and won't "assimilate" and are a "rape" danger.

 

[icehorse]

You made the assertion, it's on you to support it. If you've got stats, let's see them.

I'm tempted to find some stats for you, but not quite yet...

I've been down this road many times when debating apologists for "the oppressed". To be clear, some people really are oppressed, but the overly simplistic "oppressed vs. oppressor" worldview is tired and dangerous.

So first, let me ask you, do you think there are any neutral sources reporting on such a topic? In my experience, this is a charged topic and so called "journalists" tend to be either on the left or on the right. And what I see over and over and over again on this forum is apologist's inability to consider factual claims regardless of the source.

Next up will be the "oh, it's only a few isolated incidents" argument. So if I bring up the Huddersfield grooming gangs, or the ghetto-ization of Malmo, I'd expect to hear this "few incidents" argument. To which I'd ask, so is your argument something like "well rape is already happening, who cares if it gets worse?"

Will the fact that the UK's prime minister Rishi Sunak created a task force to battle grooming gangs convince you?

Here's a BBC article - oh I know, the BBC is probably a "far right" group to you:

Rishi Sunak criticises political correctness over grooming gangs

And finally, when I do produce the solid evidence, and all other dodges have been exhausted, my opponents just run away. Never once has someone who bleated for citations ever apologized for their slurs against me. I've come to conclude that providing citations on this forum is a waste of time.

So, if I give you some more evidence, will you behave honestly? If so, you'll be the first...

 

[anna.]

I'm tempted to find some stats for you, but not quite yet...

I don't play games.

To which I'd ask, so is your argument something like "well rape is already happening, who cares if it gets worse?"

Talk about dishonest.

Here's a BBC article - oh I know, the BBC is probably a "far right" group to you:

This is why a discussion with you is fruitless.

And finally, when I do produce the solid evidence, and all other dodges have been exhausted, my opponents just run away. Never once has someone who bleated for citations ever apologized for their slurs against me.

Back to your aggrieved victimhood.

I've come to conclude that providing citations on this forum is a waste of time.

No, you just don't have any. Your post is all smoke and mirrors.

So, if I give you some more evidence, will you behave honestly? If so, you'll be the first...

Back to controlling the narrative, I see.

Let me help you out.

In the U.S.:

The mythical tie between immigration and crime

Research by Stanford’s Ran Abramitzky and co-authors uncovers the most extensive evidence to date that immigrants are less likely to be imprisoned than U.S.-born individuals.

siepr.stanford.edu

In Europe:

The Myth of Europe's Migrant Crisis

This month marks the five-year anniversary of Alan Kurdi's death in 2015. At the time, the iconic image of his…

reason.com

In Chile:

Migrants don't cause crime rates to increase, but false perceptions endure anyway

Immigration is a critical topic in contemporary political and academic debates. Politicians and the general population alike in countries around the world have often shown hostility towards immigrants.

phys.org

 

[icehorse]

This is why a discussion with you is fruitless.

The above seemed to be a response to the link to the BBC article. Do you have any comments on the BBC article?

==

I took a look at the links you provided:

The first had to do with the US, and I'm talking about Europe
The second dealt with Europe, and on the surface seems to support your claims. But the article admits that crime is associated with unemployment, and unemployment among immigrants is high.
The third had to do with Chili.