polygamy

[idea]

Originally Posted by idea
The short answer imo is:
Polygamy is symbolic of Mary, not Heavenly Mother, bearing Jesus.

(New Testament | Luke1:38)
38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.

Handmaids are what you call second wives in polygamy. Jesus had to be 1/2 mortal - so he had to have a mortal mother. I was surprised that Mormon.org let me publish that, it is just my opinion though. Just my opinion,

Your are saying Jesus was married with wives?

No - Heavenly Father is the one who needed a handmaid, because Heavenly Mother is perfect and immortal. Jesus had to be 1/2 mortal - They needed a mortal handmaid. Nothing wrong with that - Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, it was a platonic relashonship - she was a surrogate mother – but more than just a surrogate, because she also raised Jesus… Jesus was not born to unwed parents.

 

[idea]

It really hurts me to see the church make so many negative comments about this sacred practice.

polygamy is a sacrifice - just like the atonement was a sacrifice. We don't put crosses on church buildings, because we celebrate his life. Polygamy is not about some big sex orgie - that's not what it is about - it's a sacrifice. Just like we say "it's a bad thing that Jesus had to die" - we say "it is a bad thing that polygamy is needed"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thankfully I think there is cause to believe that polygamous relashonships are not permanent ones.

It's the "law of Sarah"
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section132:65)
65 Therefore, it shall be lawful in me, if she receive not this law, for him to receive all things whatsoever I, the Lord his God, will give unto him, because she did not believe and administer unto him according to my word; and she then becomes the transgressor; and he is exempt from the law of Sarah, who administered unto Abraham according to the law when I commanded Abraham to take Hagar to wife.


and we learn from Sarah that it is not permanent.
Genesis21:10 Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son:

(New Testament | Galatians4:27 - 31)
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the achildren of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the aflesh bpersecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.


We become children of Heavenly Parents - free parents. Our Earthly parents will one day be our sisters/brothers - our earthly parents are now fallen flesh.blood beings, they are in bondage... the bondwoman, the handmaid, is needed only temporarily to provide us with this short mortal life on Earth...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
other stuff...

Galations 4:27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath children...

OK - I did not include this

Jesus was the "only" child - the only one... so that means... Heavenly Parents do not beget children, you could say they are barren...


from Sister Holland's thoughts about patterns and about motherhood.

pattern - ever notice how many of the prominant women in the scriptures are barren? Ever wonder what that was supposed to represent?
(Topical Guide | B Barren, Barrenness:Entry)

Barren, Barrenness
Gen. 11:30 Sarai was barren.
Gen. 25:21 Isaac intreated the Lord for his wife, because she was barren.
Gen. 29:31 Rachel was barren.
Ex. 23:26 There shall nothing ... be barren., in the land
Judg. 13:3 thou art barren.
1 Sam. 1:2 Hannah had no children
1 Sam. 2:5 the barren. hath born seven
2 Kgs. 2:21 there shall not be ... barren. land
Ps. 113:9 barren. woman ... to be a joyful mother
Isa. 54:1 Sing, O barren., thou that didst not bear
Luke 1:7 they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren.
Luke 23:29 Blessed are the barren.
Gal. 4:27 Rejoice, thou barren. that bearest not
2 Pet. 1:8 neither be barren. ... in the knowledge of our Lord
Alma 32:39 because your ground is barren. ... ye cannot have the fruit thereof
D&C 133:29 in the barren. deserts there shall come forth pools
Moses 7:8 barren. thereof shall go forth
See also Gen. 30:23; Luke 1:25.

I think "barren" is symbolic of HM not begetting children the way we do. They seem to adopt, rather than beget, children.
Romans8:15...the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


so Heavenly Mother uses a handmaid to have Their "only" begotten child, and Eve in her perfect form did not beget children either... She had to fall to have children... I think it takes away the agency of the child. You cannot choose something you know nothing about. would you rather eat a bigthrap? or a dillerbong? until you know what they are, you can't make an informed decision. It's a sin to go against someone's agency - we were unable to make an informed decision, you can describe what a body is like to a spirit, but until you actually get one, you don't really know... 8yo, They want kids who can make an informed choice - I think baptism is how They have kids.

so handmaids beget us so that we can reach the age of accountability...
then once we reach the age of accountability, our earthly parents can become our siblings, and we become adopted by Heavenly Parents....

(New Testament | Romans8:15)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

bondage vs. adoption...
the handmaids / suragate mothers, fallen earthly beings who are in bondage... are only needed temporarily until everyone gets through mortality.

it's a huge sacrifice - those of you who are parents, can you imagine giving your children up for someone else, someone who is imperfect, to raise them? it would be very hard.Abraham was tested to see if he could sacrifice Isaac, others are tested to see if they can handle living the law of Sarah... both of our Heavenly Parents sacrificed quite a lot.

just my thoughts

 

[zomg]

It really hurts me to see the church make so many negative comments about this sacred practice.

There is nothing sacred about Joseph Smith's plural marriages. Disturbing, yes. Sacred, no. It really hurts me to see members of the church make so many apologetic comments about this disgusting practice.

 

[idea]

There is nothing sacred about Joseph Smith's plural marriages. Disturbing, yes. Sacred, no. It really hurts me to see members of the church make so many apologetic comments about this disgusting practice.

Joseph did what he was commanded to do, as did Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. If you understood the symbolism behind it, you would not find it so disturbing.

 

[zomg]

Joseph did what he was commanded to do, as did Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. If you understood the symbolism behind it, you would not find it so disturbing.

This is a DIR so I'll refrain from starting a debate. However, I will say that any God who commands a 30 year old to have relations with 16 year old as well as with women whom are already married...ain't a God I would feel comfortable following.

 

[Katzpur]

This is a DIR so I'll refrain from starting a debate. However, I will say that any God who commands a 30 year old to have relations with 16 year old as well as with women whom are already married...ain't a God I would feel comfortable following.

So, Fire, when did you start having these, uh... issues with the Church? That makes me feel kind of bad.

Granted, Joseph Smith was intimate with more than just Emma. However, there is plenty of reason to believe that he was not intimate with most of them. So when you say "have relations," do you really know what you're talking about? A lot of Joseph's marriages were "for eternity," and not "for time and eternity." If Joseph had been having relations with very many of these women, you can bet that he'd have had quite a few children. There is little evidence that any of his wives except Emma ever bore him children. (I just went to the FAIR Conference last week. Quite a few presentations dealt with polygamy. I wish you could have been there.)

 

[zomg]

Things came to a head earlier this year. I find polygamy to be very irritating.

Yes, I do know Joseph didn't have sexual relations with each of his wives. Being sealed to someone for eternity is quite intimate even without sex. Even so, having sex with a single woman besides Emma is horrible enough. I cannot justify Joseph's idea of "celestial marriage" any longer.

Poor Emma

I wanted to attend FAIR this year. Lack of funds. Maybe next year!

 

[idea]

Things came to a head earlier this year. I find polygamy to be very irritating.

Yes, I do know Joseph didn't have sexual relations with each of his wives. Being sealed to someone for eternity is quite intimate even without sex. Even so, having sex with a single woman besides Emma is horrible enough. I cannot justify Joseph's idea of "celestial marriage" any longer.

Poor Emma

it's a hard thing for everyone who loves their marriage, and loves their spouse.

Poor heavenly Father for having to sacrifice His son...
Poor Heavenly Mother for standing by while Mary, a handmaid, bore and raised up Jesus...
Poor both of our Parents while we imperfect handmaids bear and raise up all of their children...

yes, these things are hard - but without them, we would not be able to progress. Polygamy was the only way in which Jesus could be born - he had to be half mortal, or the atonement would be impossible...

Alma38:9...there is no other way or means whereby man can be saved, only in and through Christ

there is no other way...

 

[Sola'lor]

This is a DIR so I'll refrain from starting a debate. However, I will say that any God who commands a 30 year old to have relations with 16 year old as well as with women whom are already married...ain't a God I would feel comfortable following.

Or a God that commands and old man so sacrifice his son on an altar. Or a God that forces people to marry and have"relations" with their siblings. Or that commands a group of people to kill other people in a certain land. Or that commands a person to kill another man. Or that commands constant ritual sacrifice of animals.

Yes. I see your point.

But, joking aside, I do understand that this principle can be uncomfortable for many. But after all my research, study, and prayers I cannot deny that this is a true principle. Do I understand why it is? No. Do I understand why Joseph did it in the way he did it? No. But my faith is not in Joseph Smith it is in Jesus Christ.

 

[idea]

Do I understand why it is?

... ther are two types of faith

many people think faith is just knowing God exists - but that is just the tip of the iceburg. Faith is more than just knowing God exists, faith is trusting God, even when we don't understand all that He asks us to do. I know my children, but do I have faith in them? They are little, there are some thing I do not yet have trust them with... God is different though... we have to trust Him..

I have found that by letting go - and I mean letting go of everything, and putting it all in God's hands - like that game ppl play where you close your eyes and fall backwards, hoping the person behind you is able to catch you - if you let go, and submit - God catches you, and you learn what it is to have that kind of trust / loyalty / relashonship with someone...

A relashonship which is not tested to the extreme is not proved to the extreme... only when you can let go - of God, or of your husband - and trust them with everything, and I mean everything, do you have unconditional love... unconditional - it means you can let go, and trust them, trust their love for you, no matter what...

by C.S.Lewis, recorded in “A Grief Observed”

If you have read Lewis, you know this is a very different book. He questions his belief of God in this book. Lewis finally finds love in the most unlikely place – a single mom Brooklyn girl – get’s married (originally just to give her citizenship) then falls deeply madly in love for her as she is dieing. She dies, and it is the hardest thing he has ever gone through… Previously his world was that of an ivory tower, books, students, university. This takes him out of books into reality, and he has a very hard time dealing with reality. The writing style is changed in this book… this book is used to educate hospice workers.

Anyways, he writes:

…Meanwhile, where is God? This is one of the most disquieting symptoms. When you are happy, so happy that you have no sense of needing Him, so happy that you are tempted to feel His claims upon you as an interruption, if you remember yourself and turn to Him with gratitude and praise, you will be – or so it feels – welcomed with open arms. But go to Him when your need is desperate, when all other help is vain, and what do you find? A door slammed in your face, and a sound of bolting and double bolting on the inside. After that, silence. You may as well turn away. The longer you wait, the more emphatic the silence will become. There are no lights in the windows. It might be an empty house. Was it ever inhabited? It seemed so once. And that seeming was as strong as this. What can this mean? Why is He so present a commander in our time of prosperity and so very absent a help in time of trouble?
I tried to put some of these thoughts to c. (his brother) this afternoon. He reminded me that the same thing happened to Christ: ‘Why hast thou forsaken me?’ I know. Does that make it easier to understand?
Not that I am (I think) in much danger of ceasing to believe in God. The real danger is of coming to believe such dreadful things about Him. The conclusion I dread is not ‘ so there’s no God after all,’ but ‘so this is what God’s really like. Deceive yourself no longer.’

…. You never know how much you believe anything until its truth or falsehood becomes a matter of life and death to you. It is easy to say you believe a rope to be strong and sound as long as you are merely using it to cord a box. But suppose you had to hang by that rope over a precipice. Wouldn’t you then first discover how much you really trusted it?... Only a real risk tests the reality of a belief.
I thought I trusted the rope until it mattered to me whether it would bear me. Now it matters, and I find I didn’t….
Bridge players tell me that there must be some money on the game ‘or else people won’t take it seriously.’ Apparently it’s like that. Your bid – for God or no God, for a good God or the Cosmic sadist, for eternal life or nonentity – will never discover how serious it was until the stakes are raised horribly high, until you find that you are playing not for counters or for sixpences but for every penny you have in the world. Nothing less will shake a man – or at any rate a man like me – out of his merely verbal thinking and his merely notional beliefs. He has to be knocked silly before he comes to his senses. Only torture will bring out the truth. Only under torture does he discover it himself.
… the more we believe that God hurts only to heal, the less we can believe that there is any use in begging for tenderness…

(This is where he comes out of it – where he learns the secret: not my will, but thine be done... total and complete trust/faith...)

.. Something quite unexpected has happened. It came this morning early. For various reasons, not in themselves at all mysterious, my heart was lighter than it had been for many weeks…It was as if the listing of the sorrow removed a barrier…
Why has no one told me these things? How easily I might have misjudged another man in the same situation? I mjight have said, ‘He’s got over it. He’s forgotten his wife,’ when the truth was, He remembers her better because he has partly got over it.
Such was the fact. And I believe I can make sense out of it. You can’t see anything properly while your eyes are blurred with tears. You can’t in most things, get what you want if you want it too desperately: anyways, you can’t get the best out of it. ‘Now! Let’s have a real good talk’ reduces everyone to silence. ‘ I must get a good sleep tonight’ ushers in hours of wakefulness. Delicious drinks are wasted on a really ravenous thirst. Is it similarly the very intensity of the longing that draws the iron curtain, that makes us feel we are staring into a vacuum when we think about our dead? ‘Them as asks’ (at any rate ‘as asks too importunately&#8217 don’t get. Perhaps can’t.
And so, perhaps, with God. I have gradually been coming to feel that the door is no longer shut and bolted. Was it my own frantic need that slammed it in my face? The time when there is nothing at all in your soul except a cry for help may be just the time when God can’t give it: you are like a drowning man who can’t be helped because he clutches and grabs. Perhaps your own reiterated cries deafen you to the voice you hoped to hear.
On the other hand, “Knock and it shall be opened.’ But does this knocking mean hammering and kicking the door like a maniac? And there is also ‘To him that hath shall be given.’ After all, you must have a capacity to receive, or even omnipotence can’t give. Perhaps your own passion temporarily destroys the capacity.
For all sorts of mistakes are possible when you are dealing with Him. Long ago, before we were married, H. was haunted all one morning as she went about her work with the obscure sense of God (so to speak) at her elbow, demanding her attention. And of course, not being a perfected saint, she had the feeling that it would be a question, as it usually is, of some unrepented sin or tedious duty. At last she gave in – I know how one puts it off – and faced Him. But the message (was not a burden) the message was ‘I want to give you something’ and instantly she entered into joy….

(wanting something too desperately = my will, not thine be done... I have to get to sleep, we have to talk, I have to get this job - trying to force something, my will it HAS to be THIS way - that's not trusting God, that's not putting everything in His hands... When we can let go, thy will be done - I trust you more than my logic/senses/etc. etc. let go - leap of faith, that's when He catches you, that's when you learn how much you can really trust Him, that's when the eternal bond is formed.)

Do you trust me? Do you have faith in me?

The only way to show you trust/have faith in a person, is if there is something that you do not know, that you have to rely on them for.

Do you trust that I can take xyz and create a wonderful meal for you? if xyz is a frozen dinner that all you have to do is thro in the oven, then sure! I trust you! but really, I don't trust you, I trust in the frozen dinner - I trust what I can see, hold, the picture on the box... if xyz is a cup of mud, some grass, and a little sprinkle of flowers on top - now do you trust me to create a wonderful meal for you? If you say "yes, I trust you" - your trust is obviously not in the mud/grass/flowers - your trust is in me.

It's a wonderful thing to trust/be trusted - to have faith - but in order for trust/faith in a person to exist, there has to be areas where the trust/faith is not in anything else - trust against all odds - otherwise your trust is not really in the person... clear as mud with grass?

 

[Sola'lor]

Idea that was a great post. That is the type of faith and trust I am trying to develop and I have improved to a certain degree. But I know that I still have a lot of "fear of man" to overcome.

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

Hey guys. Good stuff. There is a lot of stuff that I want to say, but I'm supposed to be writing two papers right now . Anyway, I just want to throw out one of the most powerful teachings from Lectures on Faith.

Let us here observe, that a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things, never has power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.

Wow huh? Faith is the key to everything.

 

[idea]

Wow huh? Faith is the key to everything.

great quote!

Is it sort of like sky diving Katz? (where is katz btw?) if there is even one little string connecting you to the plane – it’s not going to be pretty. You have to let go of all things, in order to fly…

 

[DavyCrocket2003]

great quote!

Is it sort of like sky diving Katz? (where is katz btw?) if there is even one little string connecting you to the plane – it’s not going to be pretty. You have to let go of all things, in order to fly…

It's the only way to experience real life. It's just like Jesus taught. If you seek your own life, you'll lose it. If you let go of your life, you will find it.

 

[LuisDantas]

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