Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
You stole my answer! Wait... Maybe I stole your answer...niamhwitch said:Other: Maiden, Mother, and Crone
There are so many trinities, it's impossible to ignore the many other religions that possess them.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Poll: Who Believes in the Trinity?
- Thread starter Katzpur
- Start date
There are so many trinities, it's impossible to ignore the many other religions that possess them.
Not all Christians, if you look at the following:-PolyReverend said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheist#Henotheism_in_various_religions
(An extract only)
Christianity
Although Christians adamantly label themselves as monotheists, some argue that Christianity is properly a form of henotheism. Most forms of Christianity include the belief in a Christian Godhead consisting of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, with God the Father being dominant "actor" and "creator". However, Trinitarian Christians strongly reject the view that the three persons of the Godhead are three distinct gods. Rather, they describe the three persons as having a single "substance", thus counting as one god. The Council of Nicea (325 C.E.) affirmed that God was "One Substance (Greek Ousia) and three Persona (Greek Hypostasis)". The Christian Trinity, like the Classical Pagan Hypostasis and Hindu Trimurti, has an impersonal divine substance as its unifying principle.
In addition, most Christians reject the view that God the Father is supreme over Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
In addition, many Christians believe in what some consider to be a "pantheon" of angels, demons, and/or Saints that are inferior to the Trinity. Christians do not label these beings as "gods", although they are attributed with supernatural powers, and are sometimes the object of prayer. When Christianity was adopted by Greco-Roman pagans or African slaves, the new converts attributed to these saints features of their previous polytheistic figures. In some cases, these beliefs have developed out of the Catholic church and form syncretisms like Santeria. These beliefs are similar to Hinduism which distinguishes between God in the form of Vishnu or Shiva, and devas which are subordinate to God and who supervise forces of nature such as Agni (i.e., fire) or Vayu (i.e., wind.) In fact, Madwacharya, a follower of Vishnu who espoused Dvaita philosophy said that he was an incarnation of Vayu and told his followers to pray to Vishnu who alone can grant moksha.
Some non-trinitarian denominations of Christianity are more clearly henotheistic. Christian Gnosticism is generally henotheistic. In addition, some sects of Mormonism view the members of the Christian Godhead as three distinct beings, where God the Father is supreme. Some Latter Day Saints also believe in the existence of numerous other gods and goddesses who have no direct interest in this Earth or humanity. See Godhead (Mormonism). Though not explicitly discussed in canonical scripture, some Latter Day Saints also acknowledge a Heavenly Mother in addition to God the Father.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Hi, Michael.michel said:Some non-trinitarian denominations of Christianity are more clearly henotheistic. Christian Gnosticism is generally henotheistic. In addition, some sects of Mormonism view the members of the Christian Godhead as three distinct beings, where God the Father is supreme. Some Latter Day Saints also believe in the existence of numerous other gods and goddesses who have no direct interest in this Earth or humanity. See Godhead (Mormonism). Though not explicitly discussed in canonical scripture, some Latter Day Saints also acknowledge a Heavenly Mother in addition to God the Father.
I'm not at all familiar with wikipedia, and don't really have the time tonight to spend much time reading up on the information you shared from this source. (But thank your very much for not using CARM as your source!)
I'm not sure that any of the stereotypical labels (such as henotheistic) describe the Latter-day Saint view of God, and I really don't particularly like being pigeon-holed into a definition that doesn't really fit. With that in mind, I'll try to explain the LDS understanding of God. Obviously, the little bit I have to say here will not cover our beliefs in detail, but will hopefully at least clarify the really important points.
As our first "Article of Faith" states, "We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."
We believe that all three are divine, and that the Son and the Holy Ghost were with God in the beginning. We do not believe, however, (as many people seem to think we do) that Jesus became God somewhere along the line -- either at His birth to the Virgin Mary or at His baptism or at any other point during His mortality. We believe that He was "God" from the beginning, as was the Holy Ghost.
I would say, offhand, that the main way in which our understanding of the relationship between the Father and the Son differs from that of mainstream Christianity is that we believe that they a physically distinct from one another, and that their "oneness" is in will and purpose. I hear people argue that they are "one" in far many more ways than that, but I'm not really sure that there is any more important way in which they could be one. When I say they are one in will and purpose, I am saying that they think, feel, and act as "one" God. There is not the slightest bit of contention between them. Their absolute unity in everything they do and in everything they want for us is beyond any unity we as mortals can possibly imagine. The only way in which they are not "one" is in their physical makeup.
The reason we say that we believe that they are physically distinct from one another is that we see both the Father and the Son as having glorified, celestial bodies of flesh and bones, while we see the Holy Ghost as being a personage of spirit only. I know that mainstream Christianity believes that "God is spirit." I would assume that, if this is the case, that this means that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all spirit. This raises a question in my mind: If the Son ascended to Heaven with a physical body, at what point did He cast off that body to be a spirit again? Or, if He didn't (and still has that body), how can He be a part of the same invisible and indivisible essence that is His Father? In other words, how can He be both material and non-material at the same time?
We also believe that the Father and the Son have a true Father-Son relationship. (Anti-Mormons like to have a hey-day with this one, incidentally, but unless someone is in the mood to harrass me about this, I'm not going there.) However, I will state that we do believe that Jesus was born of a Virgin -- just as other Christians do. We believe that, if they were not physically distinct from one another, but were simply different aspects or manifestations of the same being, they could not very well have a true Father-Son relationship, and that when Jesus referred to God as "Father," He could not have meant it literally.
As to whether they are "one" God or "three" Gods, here are a few passages from the Book of Mormon which ought to make our position pretty clear:
2 Nephi 31:21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.
Mosiah 15:5 And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation, but suffereth himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Alma 11:44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.
3 Nephi 11:27 And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one.
Mormon 7:7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.
We see the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as sharing the title of "God." I can use this title and be referring specifically to any one of the three or to all three simultaneously. Since dictionaries generally give the word "God" as a synonym for the word "Godhead," we believe that scriptures which state that there is "one God," are best understood as meaning that there is "one Godhead" (comprised of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost).
This post doesn't cover some of the other items wikipedia addressed, but it's already longer than I had intended, so I'll respond to the other items in a second post. Hopefully, this will help clarify our understanding.
Kathryn
johnnys4life
Pro-life Mommy
Yep. Though it's not something I can just sit here and explain. I don't know what the nicene creed is, but it sounds Catholic. Time to ask the Catholic dictionary. Hey Scooott....! LOL.
Just kidding, but I do need to look this one up!
Just kidding, but I do need to look this one up!
Scott1
Well-Known Member
I don't know why that's so stunning.... for someone converting to the Church, there is much to learn.... many Protestants don't know anything about Christianity that is not in the Bible.Katzpur said:Am I just imagining things? I thought you were on the verse of converting to Catholicism, J4L. If this is the case, I am absolutely stunned that you know nothing about the Nicene Creed!
The Credo
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/credo.htm
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I realize that, Scott, but isn't a belief in the Nicene Creed a pretty significant part of becoming a Catholic? It would be equally hard for me to believe that someone would consider converting to Mormonism without at least having an understanding of the LDS perspective on the nature of God. Besides, don't most Protestant Churches also accept the validity of the Nicene Creed? Or at least know what it is?Scott1 said:
ayani
member
when i identified as Christian (mainly because i didn't know there was anything else to identify as), i always had trouble with the concepts of Jesus' divinity and the Trinity. these ideas just didn't make sense to me, as i believed that spiritual truths should be able to exist outside of a historical context, e.g. the historical possibility (or truth) of Jesus' existence.
Very good point, Gracie.gracie said:
1 Corinthians 2:14 = BUT THE NATURAL MAN RECEIVETH NOT THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD: FOR THEY ARE FOOLISHNESS UNTO HIM: NEITHER CAN HE KNOW THEM, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
It's no surprise to me that some people can't accept clear teachings of Scripture. I pray for them daily.
Before I was saved, I always argued that Jesus was just a man. After I got saved, I knew He was a Man ... as well as God Himself.
joeboonda
Well-Known Member
I said other, cuz I believe in the trinity from my studies of the BIble, many verses contributing to this doctrine together. But the main one, which is still in MY Bible anyway is I John 5:7 "And there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father, The Word(describes Jesus, see John chapter 1), and the Holy Ghost; AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
AV1611 and joeboonda,
Since you both voted "Other," I am wondering if this is because of the way in which the questions in the poll were worded. Would it make any difference in the way you voted had the questions been as follows:
Yes. I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all three part of a single substance we call "God."
No. I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct beings who are all divine and who share the name of "God."
No. I do not accept Jesus Christ's divinity, even though I believe He was a great prophet and moral teacher.
Since I suspect you both believe in the Trinity, I am confused as to why you voted "Other." Was the original wording in the poll just confusing, or what?
Since you both voted "Other," I am wondering if this is because of the way in which the questions in the poll were worded. Would it make any difference in the way you voted had the questions been as follows:
Yes. I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all three part of a single substance we call "God."
No. I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct beings who are all divine and who share the name of "God."
No. I do not accept Jesus Christ's divinity, even though I believe He was a great prophet and moral teacher.
Since I suspect you both believe in the Trinity, I am confused as to why you voted "Other." Was the original wording in the poll just confusing, or what?
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Yeah, I thought it might have been the way I worded the options. So, if we were to eliminate the reference to the creeds, would you go with 'A' (Yes, I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are all three part of a single substance we call "God.")?AV1611 said:
If that would be your choice (as I suspect it would), I'm confused. You see, I use the KJV, too, and I've never gotten that doctrine out of it. Where does the King James Bible speak of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the terms you use to describe them? You speak of them all being in the same place at the same time, for instance, which definitely isn't taught in the Bible. Could you give me some verses so we could discuss this further? Thanks.
Kathryn
My pleasure, but first let me sound off for just a sentence or two, please.Katzpur said:
I love the way you worded that. That says it all. You first make the statement WHICH DEFINATELY ISN'T TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE, then you ask for verses. I have a feeling that nothing I say is going to help, but I'll certainly try.
1 John 5:7 = FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT BEAR RECORD IN HEAVEN, THE FATHER, THE WORD, AND THE HOLY GHOST, AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.
And here's one of my favorite subtle ones:
Mark 5:19-20 = HOWBEIT JESUS SUFFERED HIM [maniac of Gadara] NOT, BUT SAITH UNTO HIM, GO HOME TO THY FRIENDS AND TELL THEM HOW GREAT THINGS THE LORD HATH DONE FOR THEE, AND HATH HAD COMPASSION ON THEE. AND HE DEPARTED, AND BEGAN TO PUBLISH IN DECAPOLIS HOW GREAT THINGS JESUS HAD DONE FOR HIM: AND ALL MEN DID MARVEL.
So you see, the Bible not only teaches it by declaration, but by example too.
ayani
member
AV1611, thank you for your concern!
i remember i used to pray for people to become theists, when i was one. so i'm familiar with the feeling that "if only this person could have this wonderful idea be central to their lives, how much happier they'd be!"
though i no longer feel that way about what i believe or what helps me feel richer spiritually i do have great respect for those who stand up for and can articulate their faith!
peace,
grace
i remember i used to pray for people to become theists, when i was one. so i'm familiar with the feeling that "if only this person could have this wonderful idea be central to their lives, how much happier they'd be!"
though i no longer feel that way about what i believe or what helps me feel richer spiritually i do have great respect for those who stand up for and can articulate their faith!
peace,
grace