Politics and religion, interaction in individuals

[Saint Frankenstein]

The state of Israel is not even as old as the Hagia Sophia, there were no views on it at all before the 20th century. What did you understand to be the traditional view on it?

Well, the common traditional viewpoint that the Jews were kicked out of Israel and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD because the majority of Jews rejected Christ, and are only going to be brought back to Israel after the Second Coming and their repentance, doesn't seem to leave much room for supporting the current state of Israel. I don't see one bit how modern Zionism fits into Christianity at all. As I understood it, the Jews are undergoing a punishment of sorts for rejecting their messiah (Paul says they have scales over their eyes, blinding them), and that only God, through his messiah, will rightfully restore them to Israel. There's Ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish groups who basically believe the same, just without the Christian angle (basically that the Jews are being chastised by God for unfaithfulness (most Jews are secular or atheist), and that political Zionism is nothing but sinful hubris). So I don't even see how Jews can support political Zionism, either.

 

[Lain]

Well, the common traditional viewpoint that the Jews were kicked out of Israel and the temple was destroyed in 70 AD because the majority of Jews rejected Christ, and are only going to be brought back to Israel after the Second Coming and their repentance, doesn't seem to leave much room for supporting the current state of Israel. I don't see one bit how modern Zionism fits into Christianity at all. As I understood it, the Jews are undergoing a punishment of sorts for rejecting their messiah (Paul says they have scales over their eyes, blinding them), and that only God, through his messiah, will rightfully restore them to Israel. There's Ultra-Orthodox anti-Zionist Jewish groups who basically believe the same, just without the Christian angle (basically that the Jews are being chastised by God for unfaithfulness (most Jews are secular or atheist), and that political Zionism is nothing but sinful hubris). So I don't even see how Jews can support political Zionism, either.

Ignoring any nuances, all of that is compatible with Zionism as I understand it. For to me it is to say "the state of Israel rightfully exists and should continue to exist." The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with those ideas because it is not the fulfillment of any of it, neither is it the established Israel which is promised by God. It's not much different to me than affirming "the USA rightfully exists and should continue to exist and the American people should have that right," or about any other nation.

I am currently going through all of the traditional views on "Israel after the flesh," that is, ethnic Jews, with the old works of the Church Fathers and commentaries, and none of it (some of it you have summarized here) would conflict with this, for this state called Israel is not any of the things there, and fulfills none of them.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Ignoring any nuances, all of that is compatible with Zionism as I understand it. For to me it is to say "the state of Israel rightfully exists and should continue to exist." The modern state of Israel has nothing to do with those ideas because it is not the fulfillment of any of it, neither is it the established Israel which is promised by God. It's not much different to me than affirming "the USA rightfully exists and should continue to exist and the American people should have that right," or about any other nation.

I am currently going through all of the traditional views on "Israel after the flesh," that is, ethnic Jews, with the old works of the Church Fathers and commentaries, and none of it (some of it you have summarized here) would conflict with this, for this state called Israel is not any of the things there, and fulfills none of them.

So you would agree that Christians have no theological or doctrinal impetus to view the current state of Israel any differently than other nations, at the most?

 

[Lain]

So you would agree that Christians have no theological or doctrinal impetus to view the current state of Israel any differently than other nations, at the most?

I agree with that fully. The reasoning that Pope St. John Paul II seems to give is practical, and elsewhere the Vatican said: "the existence of the State of Israel and its political options should be envisaged not in a perspective which is in itself religious, but in their reference to the common principles of international law."

 

[SomeRandom]

So are you an ally to science more than religion? What is your religion?

Marginally, yes. I think science offers a more objective stance towards issues that affect society. Be it social, environmental or purely political. Though I also acknowledge my religion as a factor in my personal stances on political matters

I grew up a “Sai Baba person.” Basically a universalist Hindu

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I agree with that fully. The reasoning that Pope St. John Paul II seems to give is practical, and elsewhere the Vatican said: "the existence of the State of Israel and its political options should be envisaged not in a perspective which is in itself religious, but in their reference to the common principles of international law."

I see. I think I can understand how you're using the term "Zionism" now. Makes sense.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Do you still do it? Why did you stop if you dont?

I changed my mind about it. I'm no longer expecting a miraculous end of world scenario that fixes a fallen dystopia. The way I see things, now, is that we have to individually do what we can to bring peace on earth, good will to all. Most people live to ourselves and for ourselves or our own nearest relatives and friends. We avoid that which is unfamiliar, those who are strange or poor or untrustworthy. These are the aspects of human nature which cause the most problems and suffering in the world. This is what must change. Peace on earth good will towards all. This is how the kingdom of God comes and not in some flashy rescue or rampage of armies.

By the way I am not in that group, now.

 

[Clara Tea]

Religions often seem to get named with certain political views, like Christians in America with republicanism
How did if it did your religion change your political ideas? Did you associate with new things because of it?

Please explain it

President W. Bush had huge poll ratings (in the 90's) when he declared war against the al Qaeda. But as he declared war against other factions (Iraq, Taliban), who were innocent of terrorism, and when it was known that he had made torture camps, his rating fell quite far. W. Bush tried to pretend that he was for Blacks (appointed token Black figureheads Powell and Rice), yet immediately tried to cancel affirmative action, which would have removed many Blacks from college, and reduced the number of educated Blacks that could fill the shoes of Powell and Rice. When W. Bush opposed Affirmative action, his poll numbers among Blacks were under 5%, which is the lowest polls in history. Even Jefferson Davis, president of the Confederacy (South), had higher poll numbers that President W. Bush among Blacks, and Davis was definitely for slavery. I suppose one should have suspected that W. Bush was a phony because his father GHW Bush, ran for governor of the formerly Confederate state of Texas on the sole platform of opposing the Civil Rights Acts of 1964 and 1965.

Having mixed politics with religion, W. Bush's wars and torture camps drove his Christian supporters out of the Republican party in droves, and this caused Republicans to lose a lot of members of Congress. The torture camps also caused Republican Christians (Religious Right) to lose faith in God and drop out of the church. Church membership drives were at an all-time low.

Thus, the cruelty of the Republican party motivated people to drop their religious affiliations.

The Religious Right started out opposing abortion, wanting prayer in schools (violation of the separation of Church and State). But then they tied themselves to the National Rifle Association, and opposed environmental initiatives (some of which W. Bush initiated but ignored). Nothing was done to stop abortion.

 

[Leahpolitan_icecream]

There's many ways. Doing what you can to uphold a good reputation for your family name (or to create or heal that reputation when it is sullied or broken), uphold or revive their culture and folkways, having a sense of ethnic pride (regardless of your ethnicity), give offerings and commune with their spirits, etc.

I like these ideas

 

[Kenny]

So you seem to describe a strong connection between your religious belief and your social and political attitudes.

I would say it this way. We vote because in line with our strong religious beliefs. What we believe is the foundation of our moral values.

I would say, however, that in the many who are Christians that wouldn't necessarily have the same moral beliefs.

 

[sun rise]

Who is the Avatar? I'd like to meet or read about them

From my understanding, the Hindu conception is different than what I understand from Meher Baba. He identified Zoroaster, Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus and Muhammad. The Avatar discusses who the Avatar is

He also stated that he is the Avatar, the final one is this cycle of 7. How and why I accept this statement is way beyond the scope of this thread.

But in terms of reading, in so far as the history is accurate, reading about the lives of any of these figures is reading about the Avatar.

There are also figures who I believe have had union with the Divine or "vision" of the divine and there are videos of those who are more recent. Ramana Maharshi is one. A couple of others are Papaji, and Nisargadatti Maharaj. There are youtube videos that can be found.

 

[Kenny]

What is Lordship? Why socialist?

Lordship:

Basically it is where we say "Your will and not mine". So, when a friend said he would pay back my $1,000 that I loaned him and he didn't, my will would say "Don't talk to him any more, you dirty dog, et al", whereas because Jesus is Lord I said "I not only forgive him but I will go to him and say,,. 'Hey, you know that thousand dollars, it is a gift". We are friends to this day.

Socialism:

Having some social justice and even some sprinkling of socialism, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.

But as I see developing socialism with the backdrop of my wife's country of origin, Venezuela, and the results thereof of Cuba, I not only find it at odds with many aspects of a Christ follower, but I also see that Socialism really only benefits those in power.

Again, not so say that there are countries that have it some socialism is a bad thing, but in my country it includes aspects that I don't like and don't conform to what I believe is God's will. But that is my viewpoint

 

[F1fan]

Lordship:

Basically it is where we say "Your will and not mine". So, when a friend said he would pay back my $1,000 that I loaned him and he didn't, my will would say "Don't talk to him any more, you dirty dog, et al", whereas because Jesus is Lord I said "I not only forgive him but I will go to him and say,,. 'Hey, you know that thousand dollars, it is a gift". We are friends to this day.

Well if the guy has a serious gambling problem and refuses to get help, that would be different than a guy who lost his job with a wife that became seriously ill. You leave out a lot of crucial details/

Socialism:

Having some social justice and even some sprinkling of socialism, in and of itself, is not a bad thing.

The US system has a lot of Socialist ideas. The thing is we need more sprinkles, namely healthcare and wages.

But as I see developing socialism with the backdrop of my wife's country of origin, Venezuela, and the results thereof of Cuba, I not only find it at odds with many aspects of a Christ follower, but I also see that Socialism really only benefits those in power.

This sounds like you are referring more to corrupt authoritarian leadership than the sociopolitical government. I suggest people like trump are a bigger threat to being like these nations than offering more benefits for the health and well-being of the least advantaged in the USA, with higher taxes on the most advantaged.

Again, not so say that there are countries that have it some socialism is a bad thing, but in my country it includes aspects that I don't like and don't conform to what I believe is God's will. But that is my viewpoint

God always agrees with the believer (according to the b believer). Might be a little confirmation bias at play

 

[Kenny]

Well if the guy has a serious gambling problem and refuses to get help, that would be different than a guy who lost his job with a wife that became seriously ill. You leave out a lot of crucial details/

This sounds more like a rant. Was there a question?

The US system has a lot of Socialist ideas. The thing is we need more sprinkles, namely healthcare and wages.

OK... ?

This sounds like you are referring more to corrupt authoritarian leadership than the sociopolitical government. I suggest people like trump are a bigger threat to being like these nations than offering more benefits for the health and well-being of the least advantaged in the USA, with higher taxes on the most advantaged.

I can see you are a person of strong convictions

God always agrees with the believer (according to the b believer). Might be a little confirmation bias at play

Do you have a supporting scripture for this position?

 

[1213]

...
How did if it did your religion change your political ideas? ...

I think I have always believed in Bible God and His values, therefore is not much change, all though I think I now understood many ideas more deeply. For me the main values from the Bible are truth, freedom and love. I try to support those rare politicians that have the same values. Curiously it seems to change what values different parties have, which is why I couldn't say that some party has always been something that I could vote.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Religions often seem to get named with certain political views, like Christians in America with republicanism
How did if it did your religion change your political ideas? Did you associate with new things because of it?

Please explain it

Half of American Christians are Democrat, whether Protestant or Catholic. Been that way for a long time. You don't tell someone's politics by their religion or vice verse..