When pigeons exhibit their own "magical thinking", repeat their own superstitious ritualistic movements before feeding (even though it has been delivered at the exact same time, in the same way, over and over again), hoping to affect an outcome, who are they petitioning with prayer?
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Pigeons and Pagans
- Thread starter Chazzer
- Start date
nash8
Da man, when I walk thru!
Can you cite some evidence where pigeons are capable of superstitious ritualistic movements before feeding?
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
The same guy who wanted to lock pigeons into compartments for Guided Missiles?
Hey, the guy may have had some really nasty experiments, but a lot of his data is still used today.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
Lol I know...and from what little i've heard, the pigeon thing actually would have worked.
I do admire some of his behavioural work though, especially in regards to teaching.
I think what's going on in the pigeon's mind is this "if I hop on one leg in a certain way, food will appear."
That sort of thing is probably one of the sources of ritual behavior in humans, and because we're also problem solvers (the problem in this case being "what's the connection between this action and this outcome since there doesn't appear to be a direct link?"), various tribes came up with various answers. The higher power answer is what ended up dominating.
'Course that's an extremely simplistic way of explaining it; there were tons of other factors that led to the development of full-on religious behavior.
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
My observations of pets and animals is that the prime motivation is the food source, which for pets is, of course, us. We are the pet food vending machines. The rituals and prayers are for thanks and continuation of the food supply (as our prayers and thanks are when we thank God for our food).
The book of Romans says that all things created know their creator yet I've been unable to distinguish whether animals are thanking their direct food provider or their ultimate provider.
Infinitum
Possessed Bookworm
It's true that you pigeons will start inventing rituals in the hope that hey can make food appear even if the reward is completely random in reality. It's the classic example of magical thinking and we're all susceptible to it to some extent. In our case it's not always the thinking that doing A will result in B, but also often that because we didn't do A (taking the umbrella with us) it resulted in B (it started raining). We casually let out remarks like these all the time and tell ourselves we don't actually believe that's the case, but on some emotional level we're still tied to it. It's the thinking that goes with "it can't hurt to try, right?". What I personally find interesting is how different situations increase magical thinking in people. I've found that especially beliefs shared by a close group of people are a lot stronger than ones we have as individuals. I'm obviously also interested because I believe certain types of magical thinking can be used beneficially, like placebo to safely decrease the sensation of pain in patients, or motivating oneself to improve one's life situation with the help of good luck charms or spells.
FranklinMichaelV.3
Well-Known Member
How can any of these questions be answered without talking to a pigeon
Maybe the pigeons understand us but we don't understand them.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
who/what are dogs praying to when they circle several times before laying down?
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Archangel Raphael, the Patron Saint against nightmares.
Yeah, Skinner was one, but lots of other psychologists have studied pigeons and many other animals. Many display all kinds of "ritual" behaviors which are not necessarily observed in nature, especially those who are kept imprisoned in zoos and lab cages. Skinner's concept was that there was no thinking, or at least, if any thinking was going on, it was entirely unimportant to know anything about it. Operant conditioning is all about changing behavior by adding or removing positive and negative stimuli, and is totally unconcerned about the mental activity that underlies it.
As I remember, intermittent positive reinforcement is the usually the most powerful training tool: occasionally rewarding the desired behavior with a positive response. Were I a deity wanting to keep my followers interested, I wouldn't respond to every request, but every once in awhile give a good, solid positive "yes" to fulfilling their prayers and rituals.
Maybe even make it look like random chance to nonbelievers.:yes:Therefore an understanding of cause and effect would prevent unnecessary superstitious thinking. It is a safety net for the unknown. If we ever need to take a leap of faith, we believe the outcome will be favourable.
To use your analogy, when it rains and you forget the umbrella this is a case of two totally unrelated events. Magical thinking would make a connection.
When we believe in God at the time we die, this is the exact same scenario. If I'd taken the umbrella I wouldn't have died and not gone to heaven.
It is therefore an irrational fear, steeped in negativity, what if's and beliefs in implausibilities.
To use your analogy, when it rains and you forget the umbrella this is a case of two totally unrelated events. Magical thinking would make a connection.
When we believe in God at the time we die, this is the exact same scenario. If I'd taken the umbrella I wouldn't have died and not gone to heaven.
It is therefore an irrational fear, steeped in negativity, what if's and beliefs in implausibilities.
Heim
Active Member
Indeed. This is operant conditioning. Today Skinner's findings are used in psychiatric facilities as a basis for behavior therapy.Yeah, Skinner was one, but lots of other psychologists have studied pigeons and many other animals. Many display all kinds of "ritual" behaviors which are not necessarily observed in nature, especially those who are kept imprisoned in zoos and lab cages. Skinner's concept was that there was no thinking, or at least, if any thinking was going on, it was entirely unimportant to know anything about it. Operant conditioning is all about changing behavior by adding or removing positive and negative stimuli, and is totally unconcerned about the mental activity that underlies it.
As I remember, intermittent positive reinforcement is the usually the most powerful training tool: occasionally rewarding the desired behavior with a positive response. Were I a deity wanting to keep my followers interested, I wouldn't respond to every request, but every once in awhile give a good, solid positive "yes" to fulfilling their prayers and rituals.