• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Perfect Quran

Zyzyx

Member
  1. Standard Sunni Islam states that Muslims must believe in the Quran and the Hadith.
  2. Quran-only Muslims are considered heretical.
  3. The Quran is believed to be the perfect word of Allah.
  4. The hadith not perfect.

My questions are
What is the point of the Quran being perfect if the hadith are not but are essential for Islam?

Why would Allah not include everything required for Islam in his perfect book and do away with the need for Hadith?

An analogy
Imagine I got a gram of the absolute finest, 24-carat gold and mixed it with 99 grams of tin to make a ring. (I know that's a heavy ring) What would be the point of me getting the finest gold only to mix it with a lesser metal to make the ring?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Why would Allah not include everything required for Islam in his perfect book

it seems to me this is not practical. I can carry a quran in my backpack :)

also, the quran can be memorized more easily as it is now.

if absolutely everything were included in a quran, how long would it take to produce a quran in that era? a decade per quran? and again how would it be transported by missionaries? how many could be transported at once?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
  1. Standard Sunni Islam states that Muslims must believe in the Quran and the Hadith.
  2. Quran-only Muslims are considered heretical.
  3. The Quran is believed to be the perfect word of Allah.
  4. The hadith not perfect.

My questions are
What is the point of the Quran being perfect if the hadith are not but are essential for Islam?

Why would Allah not include everything required for Islam in his perfect book and do away with the need for Hadith?

An analogy
Imagine I got a gram of the absolute finest, 24-carat gold and mixed it with 99 grams of tin to make a ring. (I know that's a heavy ring) What would be the point of me getting the finest gold only to mix it with a lesser metal to make the ring?
Peace,

Everything contained in the Sunnah is contained in the Quran but in a mysterious way, that's not easy to explain. The problem with writing everything explicitly in terms of laws in a book is the following:

(1) Some morals are dynamic and change with the situation
(2) Guidance in all matters for everyone in every situation would be impossible
(3) Knowledge is cumulative process and doors lead to other doors, but it can't be all given in one go
(4) Implementation of knowledge is different then just reading it
(5) Connecting to the spiritual realm and lanterns therein is essentially main thing Quran wants you to do

Now on point (2), we read in a Du'a Istekhera regarding Quran that we can find for every matter we are looking for guidance with a proof/sign from it in Quran. The Quran itself explains itself to be an explanation to all things. This is impossible if every notion of guidance would be explicitly written.

Now with point (3), for example, Foucault concept of discourse and soft power vs hard power, the concept of wealth being power dynamic in society, power and human rights and purpose of government, all these concepts are there in the Quran, explained in detail. But without having some sort of reflection into these things, you will not know what Quran says about Foucault concept of discourse and soft power vs hard power type political discussion.

What I'm saying is that Quran takes knowledge often to recognize an issue of knowledge.

On point (4), justice can be discussed in theory, but it takes truthful leaders to implement the teaching of justice. It's not good enough to be just in theory or constitution, but you need the right leadership to implement it. Thus the purpose of Islam is to be lived.

On point (5), if you are connected to the Guide and lanterns in the heaven/high realm connected to this world, you will be guided to issues pertaining to Quran. For example, I had a dream where Ahlulbayt (a) were watching me and I solved the issue of malakat aymanihim to not be about slavery from the Muta verse. They played the Zelda song from ocarina of time when you solve a puzzle. I didn't know exact details, but I woke up and looked into the verse. And indeed I solved it in the way of the dream then recalled the details in the dream, and became sure that slavery is not part of Quran.

The Quran opens doors to doors. The verses are woven together, and there is no limit to it's knowledge. Even the Prophet (s) who was most knowledgeable to it and knows it's proper interpretations was said to not hasten regarding it but say "God increase me in knowledge".

You bring a good topic. There is also the issue if others are allowed to talk about Quran, why would we not care for what the Prophet (s) himself said regarding it?

A book of limited words can be unlimited in knowledge, and I believe the Quran is, but Ahlulbayt (a) are definitely needed to not just get deep into it, but to dispel the dark sorcery upon the Quran pertaining to it.
 
Last edited:

Saint Frankenstein

Wanderer From Afar
Premium Member
it seems to me this is not practical. I can carry a quran in my backpack :)

also, the quran can be memorized more easily as it is now.

if absolutely everything were included in a quran, how long would it take to produce a quran in that era? a decade per quran? and again how would it be transported by missionaries? how many could be transported at once?
Maybe Allah should've thought that out. :shrug:
 

Zyzyx

Member
Hi dybmh
Let's forget ‘absolutely everything’ for now. The Quran contains lots of repetition within its pages but it doesn't contain some of the absolute basics of Islam.

If it's a case of size of book, some repetition could be removed and everyday stuff be added and it still be smaller than it is.

If it's a case of making it easy to remember the above would also achieve that, plus there are several simple ways the Quran could be made easier to memorize.

Also, the Bible is about 5 times larger than the Quran and missionaries transport those.

Plus you said you can carry the Quran in your backpack but that is not all you are required for Islam. You must follow the Hadith and there is no way you can carry all those in your backpack.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi dybmh
Let's forget ‘absolutely everything’ for now. The Quran contains lots of repetition within its pages but it doesn't contain some of the absolute basics of Islam.

If it's a case of size of book, some repetition could be removed and everyday stuff be added and it still be smaller than it is.
If the details of Salah and Hajj and other things were all there in Quran explicitly, people after might indeed think the Quran to be sufficient without the Sunnah. So there's a reason for omission.
 

Zyzyx

Member
Thank you for your reply Link but I am not sure I follow. If we take prayer, for example, the Quran says to pray but it doesn't say anywhere that Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day, which is extremely important since Muslims are required to do it 5 times every day. Simply stating that doesn't seem hard or space consuming and it seems to side-step your five points.
 

Zyzyx

Member
But wouldn't this make more sense? This is where Quran-only Islam makes more sense to me. If the Quran contained these basics then you wouldn't need to rely on fallible sources on top of the perfect source. Why is there a need for Sunnah?
 

Rival

se Dex me saut.
Staff member
Premium Member
My questions are
What is the point of the Quran being perfect if the hadith are not but are essential for Islam?
Given the hadith were not written for ~200 years after the Quran, it seems to be for 2 centuries people were fine with the Quran alone. It only happens that when knowledge is lost, narratives are needed to fill in the gaps. Many early Muslims would have been familiar with previous Biblical stories etc. and required no additional explanation, but later generations were told the Bible is corrupt and no-one read it, ergo some surahs need interpretation. Other surahs are just odd, referring to something outside of itself that the immediate audience would have understood. It's like reading one half of a telephone call transcript. I believe that the Quran, the recitation, was transcripted from some kind of sermons or liturgical material, but the further the Muslims broke from the Judeo-Christian world the less understandable these sermons became outside of their context. They are very polemical and clearly aimed at Christian groups in the main, as well as Jews. It seems Islam began life as some semi-Arian like Christian sect that hated trinitarianism and broke away, eventually becoming its own thing. With the advent of Abdul-Malik, we see Islam emerge as we know it. Prior to this it's mysterious.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
On point (4), justice can be discussed in theory, but it takes truthful leaders to implement the teaching of justice. It's not good enough to be just in theory or constitution, but you need the right leadership to implement it. Thus the purpose of Islam is to be lived.
...
You bring a good topic. There is also the issue if others are allowed to talk about Quran, why would we not care for what the Prophet (s) himself said regarding it?
@Link I think answers the question. To me it's perfectly within Islam to read hadith to determine how Islam is to be lived as illustrated by one who is worthy of complete respect and who himself lived Islam.
 

Zyzyx

Member
@Link I think answers the question. To me it's perfectly within Islam to read hadith to determine how Islam is to be lived as illustrated by one who is worthy of complete respect and who himself lived Islam.
The trouble with this is that it only really works for those who had the luxury of witnessing Muhammad (I presumed you were referring to him) directly.

For all those who came after him or were not geographically advantaged to be eye-witnesses, they would have to rely on the fallible accounts of people who interpreted what they saw and then passed it on to others in the best (but imperfect) way they could. The further from the source (geographically and historically) someone was, the worse the understanding.

This then brings us full circle. Would'nt it be better for a perfect god to perfectly explain in a perfect revelation what was required?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The trouble with this is that it only really works for those who had the luxury of witnessing Muhammad (I presumed you were referring to him) directly.

For all those who came after him or were not geographically advantaged to be eye-witnesses, they would have to rely on the fallible accounts of people who interpreted what they saw and then passed it on to others in the best (but imperfect) way they could. The further from the source (geographically and historically) someone was, the worse the understanding.

This then brings us full circle. Would'nt it be better for a perfect god to perfectly explain in a perfect revelation what was required?
There is Guide in each time (13:7), it just takes prayer to God to access guidance from him. Your scenario would make sense if God wanted to guide people just through a book (if that was possible). But in reality such a thing is impossible. The Quran itself argues every possible way the wisdom for the guidance of the guides chosen by God and that relying on them is part of relying on God.

The Quran is not going to replace your parents role in your life nor be the only book you need in life to read. That's not what it's meant for.

The living guide of time who can perform miracles is part of the equation of how God is going to guide humanity. It's true Imam Mahdi (a) is his hidden from public, but much of the Quran is about setting you up to prepare your heart to meet him and that if God permits it, you will be guided by his hands.

The Imammate is a middle ground of relying on hadiths and Quran to prepare your heart to meet Imam of time, then the Imam of time will complete the guidance.

Quran itself doesn't make sense without an Imam of time as many verses speak about him.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Maybe Allah should've thought that out. :shrug:

the solution is, quran + hadith. what is left to figure out? not that I'm a fan of hadith, but, it's a perfectly good system. what's missing from this?

you're wanting a magical book, that appears to be 3x5x3, but when it's opened it's magically 1,000,000 pages long? And as soon as it's opened, the reader magically receives all the information in seconds? And there's magically a never ending supply of these magical books? And they are magically teleported into everyone's homes?

oh wait, let's skip that... if all of that is what is desired, Allah should just magically insert the teachings into everyone's skulls, and magically annihilate the perceived false doctrines about Christ in each and every soul. and magically force the end of tribalism, and magically force peace and harmony for everyone. and magically erase any hardship that every was, and force everyone to have the same values, affinities and aversions, because that's the only way to make this happen.

why? because 'poof', that makes more sense than having a quran which is deemed to be the essentials to be memorized and chanted and carried in a backpack, and the hadith library which is different, but still considered to be required ( for some ).
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Hi dybmh
Let's forget ‘absolutely everything’ for now. The Quran contains lots of repetition within its pages but it doesn't contain some of the absolute basics of Islam.

examples?

If it's a case of size of book, some repetition could be removed and everyday stuff be added and it still be smaller than it is.

IMO, the repetition is needed to convert/convince/persuade away from violent tribalism

If it's a case of making it easy to remember the above would also achieve that, plus there are several simple ways the Quran could be made easier to memorize.

repetition fosters memorization

Also, the Bible is about 5 times larger than the Quran and missionaries transport those.

The "only" Jesus version is about 100 pages I think. The gideon bible fits in a night stand.

Plus you said you can carry the Quran in your backpack but that is not all you are required for Islam. You must follow the Hadith and there is no way you can carry all those in your backpack.

So what... I can ( if I choose to ) follow the sunnah without knowing the hadith. If someone says, that is not the sunnah and shows a hadith and the explanation from a jurist, then if I am sunni, it is not proper to say "I don't have to do that." That's my understanding.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wrote this before about repetition:

Paraphrasing the same things over and over again is the bread and butter of Quran. There are many unique mentions, especially Surah Baqara, which has a lot of unique things, but repetition occurs in Quran a lot.

Some people see this is a bad thing. It's one of the criticism of disbelievers often. However, if you pay attention to similarities as well differences, you will find in that lies the subtle way God makes Quran contextualize everything it says, preserves it's meanings, and opens doors leading to other doors in Quran.

It's eloquence lies in that, it's going to emphasize the same message again and again, and again, but differently, with subtle dimensions, aspects or emphasis differently Surah to Surah.

Lastly, the smallest Surahs near the end, summarize entire themes found through out Quran that have been repeated. Their eloquence is due to that.

If it were not for how much Quran repeated Tawhid, Surah Ikhlaas would not been what it is. It is there and ultra eloquent for it's relationship to the rest of Quran as well as to how the Quran ends with the small Surahs.

Imamate of Auli-Mohammad (s) is clear. All you have to do is contextualize Quran with Quran, and let it paraphrase the same truth over and over again and put the words about Auli-Mohammad (s) in Quran in context with similar words of past chosen families and leaders of guidance.

Try to put the mini-context with the greater context in the Surah and the Surah with respect to how the same topics are brought up in other Surahs.

This will give you a clear book of illumination.
 

Zyzyx

Member
examples?
Examples of repetition or of basics of Islam? You accept there is repetition below so I presume basics. There are 5 pillars of Islam.
Shahada - Everyone has to say a specific sentence in Arabic to become a Muslim but the Quran doesn't say this. The Quran also has various shahadas but not the one Muslims have to say. Why not simply say what is required?

IMO, the repetition is needed to convert/convince/persuade away from violent tribalism

Repetition is fine in itself but if you are saying the Quran needs to be small enough to fit in a rucksack or needs to be easy to memorize then there are better ways.

repetition fosters memorization

Then make it simple and read it several times.

The "only" Jesus version is about 100 pages I think. The gideon bible fits in a night stand.
I dont know what you mean by Jesus version or 100 pages but the Quran is 6236 verses long and the Bible is 31,092 verses. 4.98 times longer.

So what... I can ( if I choose to ) follow the sunnah without knowing the hadith. If someone says, that is not the sunnah and shows a hadith and the explanation from a jurist, then if I am sunni, it is not proper to say "I don't have to do that." That's my understanding.
Im just saying your response to my question was about size of book. But as a Sunni (I am presuming) you dont just follow the Quran but also the Hadith. So for your point to be valid, you would have to carry all books required for your faith. A Quran-only could simply carry a Quran but a standard Sunni should, by that definition, carry Quran plus Hadith. How else do you know Sunnah?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thank you for your reply Link but I am not sure I follow. If we take prayer, for example, the Quran says to pray but it doesn't say anywhere that Muslims are required to pray 5 times a day, which is extremely important since Muslims are required to do it 5 times every day. Simply stating that doesn't seem hard or space consuming and it seems to side-step your five points.
It's the nature of Quran complimented by the Sunnah + philosophical writing by followers about both, that it becomes infinite in amount of knowledge it contains. Doors open other doors.

Now this is not possible for humans to do, but God can do it. It's designed to not be limited in knowledge. So omissions such as explicit details of Salah and other things are purposely omitted in a way the Sunnah contains the explicit details but the wisdom of the Sunnah to those details is actually found elaborated in Quran in an endless way. This is purposeful so you can begin to search wisdom in both. Otherwise, people would have easily avoided the Sunnah if details of the rituals were explicit in the Quran all together.
 

Zyzyx

Member
It's the nature of Quran complimented by the Sunnah + philosophical writing by followers about both, that it becomes infinite in amount of knowledge it contains. Doors open other doors.

Now this is not possible for humans to do, but God can do it.
Im not sure I understand. You say its not posible for humans but are talking about Sunnah and philosophical writings of humans alongside the Quran.

It's designed to not be limited in knowledge. So omissions such as explicit details of Salah and other things are purposely omitted in a way the Sunnah contains the explicit details but the wisdom of the Sunnah to those details is actually found elaborated in Quran in an endless way.

This I dont understand at all. Can you show me where the Quran tells followers to pray five times a day? If not, then surely it’s not only not elaborated in an endless way but not mentioned at all.

This is purposeful so you can begin to search wisdom in both. Otherwise, people would have easily avoided the Sunnah if details of the rituals were explicit in the Quran all together.

But this brings us back to the beginning. Why is there a need for Sunnah? If Allah can make his word perfectly, why bother including the fallible works of man? Why not avoid Sunnah in light of perfect scripture?
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
This I dont understand at all. Can you show me where the Quran tells followers to pray five times a day? If not, then surely it’s not only not elaborated in an endless way but not mentioned at all.
There is no explicit, but the five times is alluded to:

قَدْ نَرَىٰ تَقَلُّبَ وَجْهِكَ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۖ فَلَنُوَلِّيَنَّكَ قِبْلَةً تَرْضَاهَا ۚ فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ ۚ وَحَيْثُ مَا كُنْتُمْ فَوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ شَطْرَهُ ۗ وَإِنَّ الَّذِينَ أُوتُوا الْكِتَابَ لَيَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّهِمْ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا يَعْمَلُونَ | We certainly see you turning your face about in the sky. We will surely turn you to a qiblah of your liking: so turn your face towards the Holy Mosque, and wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it! Indeed those who were given the Book surely know that it is the truth from their Lord. And Allah is not oblivious of what they do. | Al-Baqara : 144

وَمِنْ حَيْثُ خَرَجْتَ فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ ۖ وَإِنَّهُ لَلْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۗ وَمَا اللَّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ | Whencesoever you may go out, turn your face towards the Holy Mosque. Indeed it is the truth from your Lord, and Allah is not oblivious of what you do. | Al-Baqara : 149

وَمِنْ حَيْثُ خَرَجْتَ فَوَلِّ وَجْهَكَ شَطْرَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ ۚ وَحَيْثُ مَا كُنْتُمْ فَوَلُّوا وُجُوهَكُمْ شَطْرَهُ لِئَلَّا يَكُونَ لِلنَّاسِ عَلَيْكُمْ حُجَّةٌ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ فَلَا تَخْشَوْهُمْ وَاخْشَوْنِي وَلِأُتِمَّ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ | And whencesoever you may go out, turn your face towards the Holy Mosque, and wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it, so that the people may have no allegation against you, neither those of them who are wrongdoers. So do not fear them, but fear Me, that I may complete My blessing on you and so that you may be guided. | Al-Baqara : 150


The amount of times it's said to turn your face/direction towards it, is five times here. It repeated it quick succession too, so it's not spread. Verse 149-150 has it repeated three times.

Now does it explicitly say it? No. But it's a huge hint in a way that it verifies the 5 times.

In fact, all the details of Salah can be found in Quran hinted. For example, what we say in Ruku and sujood and the wisdom, and how they compliment each other. I can go through this at your paste.
 
Top