Pentecostal Christians and Mysticism

[Windwalker]

Not much I can add to your post.

Not to worry, I'll have more thoughts to share as I continue to respond to other points that were raised in other posts. This thread is really good for me as well as it is covering a lot of ground I've been considering for a long time but haven't really put out there in a formal thread like this. Having the liberty to explore such topics like this freely over here at RF is a major plus for me where I don't have to constantly tried to censor myself worried about the angry mobs with pitch forks going on a holy crusade against any discussions that opens any doors this close to home for them. You know of what I am referring to, of course...

I think finally there's an answer to some things that been a conundrum to me for a while. After these years of knowing each other, the contemplations, and discussions we've had, I've come to understand many of the things that you talk about, but I haven't spent much or any time in serious meditation. But your answers here explain why. The answer is, I have been meditating in the past. Quite a lot actually. There were many times we prayed for hours. We prayed so many different kinds and styles as well. Besides that, I did some tai chi for a while in more recent years.

Yes, I think there is something we seem to take for granted, and that is knowing what it is to be in various "flow states". One thing to add to this, is that people who know what it is to be in subtle state experiences, such as a musical or artistic state (not just playing music, but inhabiting music with your soul), being able to enter into these in other areas, such as meditation, becomes much easier, more natural for them. You get a lot of what I'm saying because you have exposure to these states. You know I'm not trying to define something 'out there' which is what most people get stuck on, but that the whole thing for me is trying to describe something from an experience point of view, a state, a flow, a sense, etc.

You can "hear" what I'm saying because you can relate from that place yourself. Others who have no such exposure, anywhere in any area of their lives have a harder time relating to it. What I think is taken for granted often times is that everyone has had such states of being. But that's not the case. For many their experiences don't just go there. We could talk about that in itself, which is why a lot of times for people "awakening" experiences are often the result of something traumatic, in that is come in by force. Thereafter, there is a more sensitive awareness. I think that's a good word to describe this, "sensitivity" to the subtle. Wouldn't you agree?

But the thing that's been curious is that the past couple of years, I haven't done anything that resembles meditation, but still I have been able to change and realize many of these things we talk about. And perhaps it's because there's a groundwork done (in practice of meditation), and it was more a matter of letting go?

I think so, yes. I can say that if you did put yourself in front of it full-faced now, with all this behind you, look out! Of course, it's something you have to feel a desire to go into. But I can say this, it would blow you away. No doubt. It would really put things into a very new and unique perspective on all of this now.

I have to ask. Is it possible to be in meditative states even during mundane tasks in regular life? Is there anything about how that works? I have some experiences that I might share if you know anything about it.

Oh, sure. Most definitely. This happens to me all the time. In fact everything starts to become touching that "divine". It becomes a much more present awareness of this in everything. The simple smile of a child's face is the whole of the universe. A bird chirping sings the divine. The sky, the air, the breeze, the clouds, everything is alive and present. I describe it like being five years old again, when everything was wonder. Except it's with the depth of the adult mind and awareness of so much more. The way I think is a good way to talk about this is that meditation practice moves us into this awareness in ourselves, beyond being caught up in all the internal dialog we find ourselves inhabiting 99% of the time. We learn to understand this subtle side of ourselves, the we were aware of as a child without all the domination of our busy adult minds wrapped up in the cares of the world. Then as we start to inhabit that more and more as adult, all the texts that we run become more "functional tools", rather than the seat of our self-identities.

So we then become masters of ourselves in that we can use our egoic self identity to function in the world, in social interactions, but vastly more effectively because we are not consumed by the cares of protecting and defining ourselves by that! We learn to breathe in life again, as a child in wonder before the world, and we relax our cares surrounding these other things and learn to "let it be". We take what comes in life, pain, without suffering, without the complete loss of light. Even pain becomes a part of Beauty. Displeasure is part of the flow of life, but we remain connected to Ground, to ourselves, even in the midst of happiness and sadness. Yes, everything is affected. And I believe that to practice meditation regularly is the key to this. It requires basically, "getting to know yourself", and exposure is key. The more you do it, the more you become what you've exposed yourself. It's not long a hope, but your self-identify.

On a side note, you said, "they had this strange doctrine that someone does not have the Holy Ghost unless it is evidenced by speaking in tongues." My parents church was the same. You were saved, but you did not have the Holy Spirit within you, to help and guide you properly, unless you spoke in tongues. I got it when I was 11-12 y.o. or so. Before that, we always had a lot of prayer meetings and sessions anyway, so the path was already made.

It just such a strange doctrine. From a Christian point of view, how can someone be saved and not have the Spirit in them? In reality, how I view things is like this. Saved or 'lost' are terms that make sense as metaphorical descriptions of one's sense of their spiritual state of awareness. Being "saved" is really spiritual liberation. Being "lost" is when we are isolated into ourselves, cut off from ourselves, others, and the world. There is no joy in such a condition, we live in conflict with ourselves and life itself. So liberation is Freedom. We are free to forgive and accept ourselves, free to see others as they are without judgment and comparisons, free to love and to live. It is freedom from self-judgement, self-condemnation. Experiencing this is to see "God", to be that child before the world in wonder. "Except you become as a child you shall not see the Kingdom of God". It's the same world before us, but we either "see" it, or is hidden to us by the darkness of our own self-contraction from it. It's really that simple, and all the rest is language to point to this actual spiritual reality, the reality that is before us in every moment that we cannot see with our eyes closed off from it through all that we do to hide from it.

So.... to say someone is "saved" but be aware of or "have" spirit in their lives, is an utter contradiction. If you are saved, you have in fact opened to Spirit in your life. It nothing someone "gets" it something we all already are and either know or are 'lost' to in ourselves. Make sense?

 

[Ouroboros]

You know of what I am referring to, of course...

Yup.

You know I'm not trying to define something 'out there' which is what most people get stuck on, but that the whole thing for me is trying to describe something from an experience point of view, a state, a flow, a sense, etc.

Agree. It's internal... and in exchange with the external. In a way, it's a discovery how the internal interacts with the external. How we are. What's going on inside. Being able to see oneself within.

I've had some interesting experiences regarding this. I've been doing things at times, just like playing an instrument and you can listen to yourself playing, not you playing, but it is you. And I've done regular, mundane tasks, something simple as grinding coffee and putting in water in the brewer, and I'm there. I'm doing it. But my body is doing it, and I'm just observing. Very interesting feeling.

You can "hear" what I'm saying because you can relate from that place yourself. Others who have no such exposure, anywhere in any area of their lives have a harder time relating to it.

Yes. Something I learned a while ago is that it's not the words you're using to explain your experience, but the "what" behind the words. Like poetry.

What I think is taken for granted often times is that everyone has had such states of being. But that's not the case. For many their experiences don't just go there. We could talk about that in itself, which is why a lot of times for people "awakening" experiences are often the result of something traumatic, in that is come in by force. Thereafter, there is a more sensitive awareness. I think that's a good word to describe this, "sensitivity" to the subtle. Wouldn't you agree?

Yeah. That works. Sensitivity, derived from "sense". It's like another sense.

I think so, yes. I can say that if you did put yourself in front of it full-faced now, with all this behind you, look out! Of course, it's something you have to feel a desire to go into. But I can say this, it would blow you away. No doubt. It would really put things into a very new and unique perspective on all of this now.

Sensitivity, sensible, sense, I'm still thinking of that...

"Now". For a while I've seen how the now can be the eternal. The point of time which is now, that's the epitome, the focus point, the only "finite" point of the eternal, infinite time. Eternity is experience here and now.

Oh, sure. Most definitely. This happens to me all the time. In fact everything starts to become touching that "divine". It becomes a much more present awareness of this in everything. The simple smile of a child's face is the whole of the universe. A bird chirping sings the divine. The sky, the air, the breeze, the clouds, everything is alive and present. I describe it like being five years old again, when everything was wonder.

Cool! Glad to hear the confirmation on this. I can feel a bit more relaxed in letting "it" in more. Be more in it at all times.

One time, as a Christian, I tried to be in prayer (tongues, or at least aware of God, God's presence, and such) for a whole day. I think I almost did it. Maybe missed a few minutes here and there, but overall, I was in a constant mindfulness of being in God's presence. It did something to me. But I could never really say what. Now, maybe I think I know.

Except it's with the depth of the adult mind and awareness of so much more. The way I think is a good way to talk about this is that meditation practice moves us into this awareness in ourselves, beyond being caught up in all the internal dialog we find ourselves inhabiting 99% of the time. We learn to understand this subtle side of ourselves, the we were aware of as a child without all the domination of our busy adult minds wrapped up in the cares of the world. Then as we start to inhabit that more and more as adult, all the texts that we run become more "functional tools", rather than the seat of our self-identities.

Funny that you mention this. That's the first spiritual experience I had. Very young, like 9 I think I said before, coming home from a meeting, and I could feel the world was different. New. Vibrant. Energetic.

I've had a few similar experiences recently after taking art classes. Suddenly see new colors, shades, forms, etc.

So we then become masters of ourselves in that we can use our egoic self identity to function in the world, in social interactions, but vastly more effectively because we are not consumed by the cares of protecting and defining ourselves by that! We learn to breathe in life again, as a child in wonder before the world, and we relax our cares surrounding these other things and learn to "let it be". We take what comes in life, pain, without suffering, without the complete loss of light. Even pain becomes a part of Beauty. Displeasure is part of the flow of life, but we remain connected to Ground, to ourselves, even in the midst of happiness and sadness. Yes, everything is affected. And I believe that to practice meditation regularly is the key to this. It requires basically, "getting to know yourself", and exposure is key. The more you do it, the more you become what you've exposed yourself. It's not long a hope, but your self-identify.

And it's helping me tremendously today. We had to put one of our dogs down. It's a very, very sad day for us. Especially for me. I was close to her.

It just such a strange doctrine. From a Christian point of view, how can someone be saved and not have the Spirit in them? In reality, how I view things is like this. Saved or 'lost' are terms that make sense as metaphorical descriptions of one's sense of their spiritual state of awareness. Being "saved" is really spiritual liberation. Being "lost" is when we are isolated into ourselves, cut off from ourselves, others, and the world. There is no joy in such a condition, we live in conflict with ourselves and life itself. So liberation is Freedom. We are free to forgive and accept ourselves, free to see others as they are without judgment and comparisons, free to love and to live. It is freedom from self-judgement, self-condemnation. Experiencing this is to see "God", to be that child before the world in wonder. "Except you become as a child you shall not see the Kingdom of God". It's the same world before us, but we either "see" it, or is hidden to us by the darkness of our own self-contraction from it. It's really that simple, and all the rest is language to point to this actual spiritual reality, the reality that is before us in every moment that we cannot see with our eyes closed off from it through all that we do to hide from it.

Well put. Perfect.

So.... to say someone is "saved" but be aware of or "have" spirit in their lives, is an utter contradiction. If you are saved, you have in fact opened to Spirit in your life. It nothing someone "gets" it something we all already are and either know or are 'lost' to in ourselves. Make sense?

Well, I can say that that church wasn't saying that you weren't saved without the tongue. You were saved. That was a different act. But the tongues was a tool, weapon, or armor. More like growing up a bit to a more advanced level. Some people in the church didn't speak in tongues, but they were still considered saved. Speaking in tongues was just something that would help you grow.

 

[The Graveyard Cowboy]

This is a fantastic thread. I have been thinking a lot about it myself recently. I like the idea of Pentecostals opening to the wider tradition of mysticism within Christianity, though as many have already mentioned, there are reasons why they don't. I wrote a simple blog post on this topic here.

The Graveyard Cowboy At Midnight: Are Pentecostals Mystics? Some simple answers.

 

[The Graveyard Cowboy]

Also, an update. As I have posted my above article, which is really just a simple way of saying that Pentecostals are mystics using a broad definition of mysticism. I am noticing that many Pentecostals reject the term mystic. And the ones that don't think catholics and anglicans have made a big deal about mysticism when it's really just what most christians consider the norm (experiencing the Holy Spirit personally). The second is a valid point to some degree. But their vehement rejection doesn't seem to have much of a foundation. I guess I still don't understand why they would hate the word mysticism so much. Being baptized in the Spirit is holy but mysticism is of the devil? I just don't get it.

 

[Windwalker]

Also, an update. As I have posted my above article, which is really just a simple way of saying that Pentecostals are mystics using a broad definition of mysticism. I am noticing that many Pentecostals reject the term mystic. And the ones that don't think catholics and anglicans have made a big deal about mysticism when it's really just what most christians consider the norm (experiencing the Holy Spirit personally). The second is a valid point to some degree. But their vehement rejection doesn't seem to have much of a foundation. I guess I still don't understand why they would hate the word mysticism so much. Being baptized in the Spirit is holy but mysticism is of the devil? I just don't get it.

I think part of this has to do with the history of Pentecostalism and what was going on historically at the time it was taking hold in America in the early to mid 1900s. I believe things like Theosophy were popular as well as other things like New Thought, etc. I'm a bit fuzzy and unclear about the history of those things in relation to the rise of Pentecostalism, but I sense this negative branding of certain ideas and practices were a response to those, in an attempt to differentiate themselves from everyone else in order to stand out as "the real thing". So this gets passed down to "hate" mysticism, though no one of the younger generations exactly knows why. Something like that, I suppose.

A quick example of this would be this one well-respected early leader in one of the Pentecostal movements had the belief that Rock music was evil. He, not being a musician himself, had heard what made it so appealing was the syncopated beats. So he preached that syncopation was bad, and should not be used in music! Of course, all music has syncopation, with the exception of things like John Phillip Sousa marches!

This illustrates the point that a lack of education, and the preaching of fear based on ignorance creates these sorts of irrational ideas that can get handed down to others who never examine these things and the ignorance continues to be taught, a "blind leading the blind" example. It was only the actual musicians who could recognize he didn't know what the hell he was talking about. Exact same thing here with mystics.

 

[The Graveyard Cowboy]

Well said, Windwalker. It is amazing how so many in that tradition make snap judgments on mere words and don't even understand the history of their own tradition. Perhaps it will change with younger generations. The Pentecostals have a lot of good components to their worship I think, but I keep encountering this stubborn combativeness in them, a paranoia where they seem to be thinking the devil will get them any moment around the next corner.

 

[Muffled]

This idea is interesting to me. I may try it as well, as "prayer language" was a big thing in some of the circles I was in as well.
It could certainly be a meditative tool, I had honestly never considered it...perhaps it is because things are still a little raw.

Going back over my post, and then reading all of these wonderful insights, I realize I didn't really offer much last night. Likely, this is due to my habit of posting when too tired.
I will come back later with more, as my richest mystic experiences were as a Charismatic Christian.

I do want to say that I am grateful to you for starting this topic @Windwalker .

I believe tongues puts a person in a spiritually receptive state. I attend a traditional church at present so there is no need for it in church and sometimes it happens at home but mostly I am in a spiritual state to some extent at tall times so tongues is less necessary. For me it is largely the result of being in a spiritual state not the cause of it.

 

[Windwalker]

The Pentecostals have a lot of good components to their worship I think, but I keep encountering this stubborn combativeness in them, a paranoia where they seem to be thinking the devil will get them any moment around the next corner.

I have a working thesis that the reason you see with the conspiracy theory and paranoia in these groups in because these groups by and large are fundamentalist.

Fundamentalism in my view is distinctly different than simply conservative or traditional forms of religion. It is by definition a reactionary system, defined in opposition to modernity. Systems like this which position themselves as, we've got the truth and everyone else (including the rest of Christianity) are lost and being deceived by Satan, typically attract personalities which are prone to this sort of extreme thinking. Along with that comes paranoid and conspiratorial thought as part of that type of mentality. I contend that fundamentalism as a religious system is actually pathological in this way because it not only attracts this type of thinking to itself, but reinforces it, as well as promotes it. It's pathological in that it is a system which specifically prevents any sort of progressive change towards growth, and feeds back upon itself to keep people in this state of mind which ultimately becomes both psychologically and spiritually unhealthy.

So in short, you see a lot of that there because it's the nature of the system. That of course does not mean someone in that cannot have spiritual experiences, but how they become interpreted and responded to is not necessarily the healthiest. Compare that with meditation practices. Not everyone is a good candidate to go that deeply with them as it may only serve to reinforce or worsen an already unstable personality. To be clear, this doesn't mean everyone in those systems is unstable, I don't believe that, but it does attract those who are. And subsequently as members, they feed into the system that sickness which influences everyone, or better stated it normalizes it.

That puts it well. What makes fundamentalism pathological is it takes what are unhealthy patterns of thinking and normalizes them. Paranoid conspiratorial thinking becomes the way you should think about these things. Consequently, those who come in with it are only reinforced instead of helped, and those who don't think that way are shown this is how they themselves should understand these things too because it's considered not only acceptable, but a spiritual reality. The devil is out to steal their souls, so they better stay close to those who understand these things and not stray from the faith.

 

[The Graveyard Cowboy]

I have a working thesis that the reason you see with the conspiracy theory and paranoia in these groups in because these groups by and large are fundamentalist.

Fundamentalism in my view is distinctly different than simply conservative or traditional forms of religion. It is by definition a reactionary system, defined in opposition to modernity. Systems like this which position themselves as, we've got the truth and everyone else (including the rest of Christianity) are lost and being deceived by Satan, typically attract personalities which are prone to this sort of extreme thinking. Along with that comes paranoid and conspiratorial thought as part of that type of mentality. I contend that fundamentalism as a religious system is actually pathological in this way because it not only attracts this type of thinking to itself, but reinforces it, as well as promotes it. It's pathological in that it is a system which specifically prevents any sort of progressive change towards growth, and feeds back upon itself to keep people in this state of mind which ultimately becomes both psychologically and spiritually unhealthy.

So in short, you see a lot of that there because it's the nature of the system. That of course does not mean someone in that cannot have spiritual experiences, but how they become interpreted and responded to is not necessarily the healthiest. Compare that with meditation practices. Not everyone is a good candidate to go that deeply with them as it may only serve to reinforce or worsen an already unstable personality. To be clear, this doesn't mean everyone in those systems is unstable, I don't believe that, but it does attract those who are. And subsequently as members, they feed into the system that sickness which influences everyone, or better stated it normalizes it.

That puts it well. What makes fundamentalism pathological is it takes what are unhealthy patterns of thinking and normalizes them. Paranoid conspiratorial thinking becomes the way you should think about these things. Consequently, those who come in with it are only reinforced instead of helped, and those who don't think that way are shown this is how they themselves should understand these things too because it's considered not only acceptable, but a spiritual reality. The devil is out to steal their souls, so they better stay close to those who understand these things and not stray from the faith.

Good point. As I see you also are familiar with Ken Wilber, I am reminded of his system that sees "waking up" (spiritual experience, mystical states) as distinct from the stages/ladder of "growing up" (psychological/philosophical maturity). So, as strange as it sounds, you can have an "enlightened fundamentalist" fully alive to the God-consciousness but stuck in a psychologically closed reality. I think these two paths usually increase in tandem, but Pentecostals may be one of the exceptions. However, it makes me sort of yearn for a Pentecostal church that fosters spiritual experience AND a psychological "growing up," that can teach a more holistic, philosophically mature understanding of Christian theology. Of course, people who seek the second usually steer clear of Pentecostalism, perhaps because they sense the fundamentalist view of members. I have found the most well-rounded and "spritually advanced" Christians in the Episcopal or Catholic churches, at least in my limited experience here in the USA. But I really like the idea of a Pentecostl church where they not only become baptized in the Holy Spirit, but they also study Thomas Aquinas, Ken Wilber, and Post-modern ecumenism. Lol.

 

[Windwalker]

Good point. As I see you also are familiar with Ken Wilber, I am reminded of his system that sees "waking up" (spiritual experience, mystical states) as distinct from the stages/ladder of "growing up" (psychological/philosophical maturity). So, as strange as it sounds, you can have an "enlightened fundamentalist" fully alive to the God-consciousness but stuck in a psychologically closed reality. I think these two paths usually increase in tandem, but Pentecostals may be one of the exceptions. However, it makes me sort of yearn for a Pentecostal church that fosters spiritual experience AND a psychological "growing up," that can teach a more holistic, philosophically mature understanding of Christian theology. Of course, people who seek the second usually steer clear of Pentecostalism, perhaps because they sense the fundamentalist view of members. I have found the most well-rounded and "spritually advanced" Christians in the Episcopal or Catholic churches, at least in my limited experience here in the USA. But I really like the idea of a Pentecostl church where they not only become baptized in the Holy Spirit, but they also study Thomas Aquinas, Ken Wilber, and Post-modern ecumenism. Lol.

OMG! An Integral Christian! Trust me, I'm not as insane as my excitement makes me sound. What I read here is speaking right out of my own conscious. So much to share here!

A short while back I was introduced to what is called Emergence Christianity, and locally per chance I've become somewhat friends with one of the "biggies" in that movement. Yet, despite all the wonderful things that are happening in that congregation, there is still that "something" missing, that which you could call the "juice", which oddly, ironically enough those well-meaning folks in Pentecostalism have, sans any rational let alone transrational frameworks. The postmodern, and some degree of Integral understanding is there in this "emergent" congregation, yet, it seems as part of this there is the necessary stages of differentiation from the prerational and unquestioning Stage 3 through Stage 4 into Stage 5 faith stages (Fowler), but not fully flying with the stage 5 Conjunctive faith as far as reclaiming that energy that comes as part of a ritualized "we space".

There seems to be what I would describe as an "allergy" present, and that allergy is toward that "juice". The form, the ritual, the raising of energy, the work, the grounding, etc, that you find exercised well within these Pentecostal groups, yet within the prerational, and even anti-rational settings. It's like there is a deliberate aversion to something that may feel "churchy". The postmodern mind and values are there, the understanding is there, yet where is the juice? I try to image that fire, with the rational mind ignited along with the spirit.

I'm just processing out loud here. Thoughts? I can try to be more coherent, but I'm just seeing where this will land as is.

 

[The Graveyard Cowboy]

OMG! An Integral Christian! Trust me, I'm not as insane as my excitement makes me sound. What I read here is speaking right out of my own conscious. So much to share here!

A short while back I was introduced to what is called Emergence Christianity, and locally per chance I've become somewhat friends with one of the "biggies" in that movement. Yet, despite all the wonderful things that are happening in that congregation, there is still that "something" missing, that which you could call the "juice", which oddly, ironically enough those well-meaning folks in Pentecostalism have, sans any rational let alone transrational frameworks. The postmodern, and some degree of Integral understanding is there in this "emergent" congregation, yet, it seems as part of this there is the necessary stages of differentiation from the prerational and unquestioning Stage 3 through Stage 4 into Stage 5 faith stages (Fowler), but not fully flying with the stage 5 Conjunctive faith as far as reclaiming that energy that comes as part of a ritualized "we space".

There seems to be what I would describe as an "allergy" present, and that allergy is toward that "juice". The form, the ritual, the raising of energy, the work, the grounding, etc, that you find exercised well within these Pentecostal groups, yet within the prerational, and even anti-rational settings. It's like there is a deliberate aversion to something that may feel "churchy". The postmodern mind and values are there, the understanding is there, yet where is the juice? I try to image that fire, with the rational mind ignited along with the spirit.

I'm just processing out loud here. Thoughts? I can try to be more coherent, but I'm just seeing where this will land as is.

Thanks for your excitement! It is good to get, and it is shared.

Yes, the Emergence Church is "stuck" where you locate them in Fowler's system. I have no doubt many in that movement would be folks that I, too, would like to be friends with (I may even want to interview you and your friend for my podcast at some point, but that said, I have never bothered much with the Emergent Church. The world-weary mystic in me sees them as a fifteen year old questioning organized religion for the first time and making a big to-do about it, like if they hadn't been so stuck in their faith journey for so long all that jazz might not have the appeal it does. They're like, "hey, I smoked a joint and read Derrida, let's celebrate how edgy I am!" I am like, yeah, welcome to freshman year of undergrad, whatever. That sounds a bit rude, I know, but that's where my own "stuff" comes up. I have a hard time connecting to and honoring the processes that some Christians are going through, with questioning and deconstructing and re-envisioning, something about it seems purely intellectual and lacks the juice as you said. I am almost more inclined to go to a Pentecostal church with fundamentalist views, experience the spirit, and keep my opinions on theological matters quiet. Just embrace the energy.

I did, actually, spend an extended amount of time at a silent monastery where the monks read Ken Wilber and greatly respected his frameworks. But, like you noticed, it's harder than you might think to find an overlap between those who like his paradigms and embrace Christianity. I did find a good talk between him and Father Thomas Keating on YouTube. I also interviewed a spiritual director on my podcast that used both Ken Wilber and Christian orthodoxy in his work. Link is here.

Again, thanks for your excitement and wisdom. I look forward to what else you have to say.

 

[Windwalker]

Thanks for your excitement! It is good to get, and it is shared.

I've listened to half your podcast so far. Indeed, you and I are going to be having a great deal to talk about. It's going to be wonderful and fascinating to watch where this unfolds for us in our discussions. I have a feeling we'll be able to help each other quite a lot since we share so much of the similar frameworks and vocabulary, and it seems experience to work from. Great podcast, BTW.

Yes, the Emergence Church is "stuck" where you locate them in Fowler's system.

Interesting you have come to that perspective as well.

The world-weary mystic in me sees them as a fifteen year old questioning organized religion for the first time and making a big to-do about it, like if they hadn't been so stuck in their faith journey for so long all that jazz might not have the appeal it does. They're like, "hey, I smoked a joint and read Derrida, let's celebrate how edgy I am!" I am like, yeah, welcome to freshman year of undergrad, whatever.

I'm sure not everyone in there is like this. Though I do get what you are saying. I see it as in large part a matter of trying to keep that sense of community and to some degree "faith", while not having to lie to themselves and others about being mythic-literal believers in order to fit in. It gives them a "church home" without the need to be "in the closet" as it were, in their "disbelief" at that traditionalist level. Yet even there, it seems the dominant image of God is still largely externalized, even while not being the mythic-literal anthropomorphic form of God. It certainly is a much more perennial, universal form, yet I don't catch the intimacy of the imminence of Spirit.

That sounds a bit rude, I know, but that's where my own "stuff" comes up.

We all chafe against our own selves as we continue to differentiate from a previous stage. Neo-atheists chafe against mythic-literal as they separate and define themselves out of it (Stage 3/4), I chafed against Neo-atheism as I took it to the next level (Stage 4/5), and so forth.

God knows, when I listen to Wilber rail against the "mean green meme" as he does, it makes me wonder if that's his own work of differentiating himself from his own "inner green". It seems what we are leaving behind, or transcending is what we fight against the most. A 13 year old stresses the point he is NOT a child anymore and make a big deal of it to himself as he takes on the mantel of being a teenager, yet they don't exert themselves in defining themselves as not a five year old anymore, since that's long ago been transcended and included. It's of no concern to them now. They are way past that stage.

I have a hard time connecting to and honoring the processes that some Christians are going through, with questioning and deconstructing and re-envisioning, something about it seems purely intellectual and lacks the juice as you said.

Well, you know, I could spend a lot of time chewing on this. I'll just share briefly a thought here about it. I think anytime someone is embarking on a new exploration for themselves they begin by "sensing" they need to go somewhere else, but if they have no supportive structures to come back to, some framework of understanding, some model of reality it becomes to say the least difficult if not impossible to leave the stability behind. It can leave someone rather ungrounded, to say the least.

Deconstruction is in fact an intellectual work, and I liken it back to those transition stages such as Stage 3/4 or Stage 4/5. It's necessary I believe in order to find a new structure for that emerging self to find a home in as it awakens to the next level (of course that process doesn't stop even at that point). What can happen, and I can say this from my very own experience with this, that the models that start to form can be rather exciting as it stimulates the mind. But the pitfall of that is that we start to slide into substituting the model for the reality. We prevent ourselves from taking the next step into actual realized experience on the interior level of spirit.

I'm not sure if you've read Wilber's Atman Project, but I'd recommend it if you haven't. The whole point of these "projects" is a type of avoidance. He speaks of Eros and Thanatos, and how that Thanatos (Death), is actually not the opposite of Eros (or life or growth), but rather is the arm or agent of Eros. It's purpose is to break down those substitutes we place in our own path as the end point we think we seek. The models fail to deliver the goods, in other words, and so we end of in a crisis of spirit as it were and move on to the next realization. You follow where I'm going?

So to my own story (sorry this is getting long now). When I first picked up Wilber some 8 years ago now, these models, this map was a stupendous benefit to me. Finally, some way to map all these many disparate little parts I had been chewing on in knowing something wasn't quite working for me, going far enough in the previous structures I had been using, adapted from religious and from secular systems as well. Finally however, at one point I realized even then something was missing. And that one thing was this: Meditation.

Once I ventured into the inner landscape of myself, suddenly all these powerful and sophisticated models, which were the other side of the deconstructivist exercise, instantly appeared to my mind now like two-dimensional structures compared to this unbelievable multi-dimensional reality. I described it at that time as like having an entirely separate brain put on top of my "normal" brain. I still agree with that impression to this day.

I think most people, and I may be projecting a bit here, likewise either are avoiding Atman with their own projects, such as an intellectualized deconstruction of how all of the other stuff is wrong, or just simply do not know of, or how to, enter into the inner landscape of experience beyond the models of truth and reality their minds rely on to navigate the terrain of their own beings. In other words, they aren't developing that other "brain" as it were. This ties into I feel that whole "waking up and growing up" understanding your podcast was getting into.

Anyway, I stop this train of thought here. But it's excited to be able to talk with someone like you who will likely follow what I'm saying here.

I am almost more inclined to go to a Pentecostal church with fundamentalist views, experience the spirit, and keep my opinions on theological matters quiet. Just embrace the energy.

Hah! I've had these exact some thoughts and temptations myself! However, here's where I've somewhat come to in my thoughts and feelings on that. Even though I'm sure the group energy thing would be great, and it does transcend the rational mind, part of that group dynamic is in fact a shared cultural space. They would have the assumption I was roughly on the same page as them, whereas in reality the particular way I would be thinking about it and holding it would be taken as pure heresy by them. I am not one of them, in other words.

It would feel like I was lying to them, and subsequently I am not truly going to be able to release myself into that shared space as I might be able to with those who accepted me for who I was. Could I just suspend that for the moment, as I might say in a meditative space not believing in God as a literal "person" in the sky, yet as an archetype of my own Self, allowing myself to bow before His feet in a 2nd person experience of Spirit? Sure, but this is part of group whose beliefs and values are from from my own at this point.

It's hard to put this into words, but I do appreciate the sentiment, to be sure. It kind of reminds of a line from that song Walking in Memphis,

Now, Muriel plays piano
Every Friday at the Hollywood
And they brought me down to see her
And they asked me if I would
Do a little number
And I sang with all my might
She said, "Tell me are you a Christian, child?"
And I said, "Ma'am, I am tonight!"
​

As I said, I like the sentiment, but not so sure about the execution. If you try it, let me know how it worked for you.

I did, actually, spend an extended amount of time at a silent monastery where the monks read Ken Wilber and greatly respected his frameworks. But, like you noticed, it's harder than you might think to find an overlap between those who like his paradigms and embrace Christianity. I did find a good talk between him and Father Thomas Keating on YouTube.

I'm assuming you are familiar with Cynthia Bourgeault?

Anyway, sorry for the length of this. It feels great to talk "eye to eye".

 

[The Graveyard Cowboy]

I'm not sure if you've read Wilber's Atman Project, but I'd recommend it if you haven't. The whole point of these "projects" is a type of avoidance. He speaks of Eros and Thanatos, and how that Thanatos (Death), is actually not the opposite of Eros (or life or growth), but rather is the arm or agent of Eros. It's purpose is to break down those substitutes we place in our own path as the end point we think we seek. The models fail to deliver the goods, in other words, and so we end of in a crisis of spirit as it were and move on to the next realization. You follow where I'm going?

So to my own story (sorry this is getting long now). When I first picked up Wilber some 8 years ago now, these models, this map was a stupendous benefit to me. Finally, some way to map all these many disparate little parts I had been chewing on in knowing something wasn't quite working for me, going far enough in the previous structures I had been using, adapted from religious and from secular systems as well. Finally however, at one point I realized even then something was missing. And that one thing was this: Meditation.

Once I ventured into the inner landscape of myself, suddenly all these powerful and sophisticated models, which were the other side of the deconstructivist exercise, instantly appeared to my mind now like two-dimensional structures compared to this unbelievable multi-dimensional reality. I described it at that time as like having an entirely separate brain put on top of my "normal" brain. I still agree with that impression to this day.

I think most people, and I may be projecting a bit here, likewise either are avoiding Atman with their own projects, such as an intellectualized deconstruction of how all of the other stuff is wrong, or just simply do not know of, or how to, enter into the inner landscape of experience beyond the models of truth and reality their minds rely on to navigate the terrain of their own beings. In other words, they aren't developing that other "brain" as it were. This ties into I feel that whole "waking up and growing up" understanding your podcast was getting into.

Anyway, I stop this train of thought here. But it's excited to be able to talk with someone like you who will likely follow what I'm saying here.

Now, Muriel plays piano
Every Friday at the Hollywood
And they brought me down to see her
And they asked me if I would
Do a little number
And I sang with all my might
She said, "Tell me are you a Christian, child?"
And I said, "Ma'am, I am tonight!"
​

As I said, I like the sentiment, but not so sure about the execution. If you try it, let me know how it worked for you.


I'm assuming you are familiar with Cynthia Bourgeault?

Anyway, sorry for the length of this. It feels great to talk "eye to eye".

Walking in Memphis, walking with my feet ten feet off of Beale! I have walked on Beale Street, back when I was 20, on a road trip with a friend, ah....no big mystical hallelujah though...

I too, am much more interested in the meditative experience of going inward and spiraling throughout, contemplative prayer, the Jesus prayer, building up a sense of Presence. My philosophical perspective advanced much quicker than my emotional one, and doing the daily work of prayer and meditation seems as much of a necessity as a desire. But I like Evelyn Underhill's work Mysticism and her way of thinking about the path of the Christian mystic. She was one of the ones that first resonated with me, first helped me realize that I had touched the miraculous and there was actually a path for this. I am not too familiar with Cynthia B---- other than she teaches contemplative prayer and is an Episcopalian I think. Seems like I've run into folks in different Episcopal churches that liked her and followed her. She was into that Taize movement that I never quite followed by had a loose thought of 'one day I might look into that.' The thing is that I have my living space, well, a room in particular set up especially for prayer and meditation, and it's hard not to just want to do all my meditations alone in my room, meaning, I don't always feel motivated to join meditation circles, centering prayer groups, etc. Other than friends like you that I always seem to meet as a natural consequence of being kindreds in a similar space

I like Eckhart Tolle a lot. Also, St John of The Cross still remains an all-time favorite and never seems to get old.

Thanks so much for your wisdom and correspondence. I look forward to more, and I feel encouraged with your insight.

 

[Windwalker]

The thing is that I have my living space, well, a room in particular set up especially for prayer and meditation, and it's hard not to just want to do all my meditations alone in my room, meaning, I don't always feel motivated to join meditation circles, centering prayer groups, etc.

Hah, again! I have my meditation room as well, although it is also where my music room and recording studio spill over into. When you come down the basement, it's literally like a temple down here with all manner of instruments I use to record very meditative music. You may like some of it. Here's a very short improv I did recently while I was staying for a couple months in solitude up at a cabin, literally 60 feet off the lake. I've been teaching myself the bansuri (Hindustani bamboo flute) over the last 8 months, and this was an improv while I was looking out at the sun setting on the lake. It's been a bit of a transformative time up there:

Other than friends like you that I always seem to meet as a natural consequence of being kindreds in a similar space

I'm like you as well that I generally prefer my private practice over anything group oriented. I've been deliberately trying to put myself in front of those in the hope of gaining that "we space" back again. Hence, really what this thread was lamenting a bit. It was wonderful to hear you share that same lament. The emergence church I found is interesting, but as we've said, "where's the juice"?

If you've not looked into the Mysticism DIR on this site, please do so. That's where I like to hang out whenever someone posts there. I suspect you may post there soon as well. I look forward to that.