Paul - An Apostle?

[MyM]

Jesus never said he was God. If he was God then it would be going against God to not require people worship and pray to Jesus. Jesus refused to allow anyone to pray to him because he is not and never was God. Because of the power Jesus displayed with miracles, some people did worship him because all people have freedom of will but Jesus did not want any worship. Jesus leads people to God so they worship the correct God. Jesus is not a mediator to change the decisions of God because God's decisions are righteous and Jesus would never disagree with them. Jesus does not have more mercy than God does. Everyone is responsible for their own moral sins and secular crimes and must pray to God for forgiveness of them and become water baptized to open the door to forgiveness.
Jesus is "ONE" with God in the same way Jesus said when a man and woman get married they become ONE. They are one in love, loyalty and purpose to establish a good life together.

Mark 10:8
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

John 17:21t
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

.

Yes, there is only One God and no other being is compared to Him.
The prophets of Allah peace and blessings be upon them all, were knowing this and communicated the message from their creator. They are in no way part of their Creator
Well, you are closer to Islamic belief except the "baptism" way. There is no need for all that because Allah is the only one that forgives and you can pray DIRECTLY to him to forgive you. No need for any intermediaries. Allah is the Gracious, the Merciful.

 

[Triumph]

All humans sin. 1 John 1:8: “If we make the statement, 'We have no sin,' we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.” As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
Micah 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”


John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”

John 17:5

Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

Jesus always existed in harmony with the Father.

John 1:1 BUT Jesus does not know what those words are, he does not create those words and tells us that, so how can Jesus BE THE WORD from the beginning because then Jesus would already know everything with no need for God to give him the words needed at the time to teach. Jesus hears the words of God throughout his ministry but Jesus does not have total knowledge of the universe and prays to God for advice. He does not pray to himself. Jesus can not even command angels on his own. Jesus must pray to God for their service. Angels of God love Jesus but they serve only God. Jesus is a servant of God. God is not a servant to any human. Just because Jesus asks God to forgive those that know not what they do, does not mean God will and God showed every sign, He won't forgive them..

John 8 is explaining before the lies of Abraham existed (Jesus is calling the people that support the father of the lie which is Abraham, "vipers") that the truth existed, God, I am.
Jesus tells the truth he hears from God, Abraham never heard the voice of God so Abraham is lying when he said God chose him with a royal bloodline and eternal throne.

John 17 requires people to know the glory of God is Love and Truth. There are more than 10 Commandments from God. There are 2 more told to Jesus to give to the people.
One of those is the Commandment to become water baptized for remission of sin and that requires people to understand God does not accept any blood sacrifices. That is a new law. The other new Commandment is to Love one another. A person does not love God or Jesus if they want him dead to exalt themselves. GOD is LOVE and God loved all of His creations before God created the world or the world and all life in it would not exist.

 

[Triumph]

Yes, there is only One God and no other being is compared to Him.
The prophets of Allah peace and blessings be upon them all, were knowing this and communicated the message from their creator. They are in no way part of their Creator
Well, you are closer to Islamic belief except the "baptism" way. There is no need for all that because Allah is the only one that forgives and you can pray DIRECTLY to him to forgive you. No need for any intermediaries. Allah is the Gracious, the Merciful.

View attachment 60791

Many people that call themselves Christians believe God will kill people that are not Christians and they should kill people that do not believe their sect of religion is the only religion. They are not real Christians and not following Jesus that commanded love even your enemies as beloved brothers. Many Muslims believe Allah will kill people and that they are required by Allah to kill people that do not believe their religion is the only true religion. Christians have killed Christians over differences of Christian beliefs. Muslims kill Muslims over the same thing, they believe only their sect of Islam is the correct one.
The true God commands do not kill anyone. If they are evil, it is because they are mentally sick in need of a compassionate doctor not a death penalty sentence. They do not know what they are doing, so teach them only with grace and generous consideration of the conditions of the people, if they need help in survival. Differences of doctrine should always be resolved with compassion, discussion, respect for one another as equals, kindness, mercy, love for the right to God given life of the other person never on a battlefield, never with slaughter over differences of religion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It's obvious that you are making stuff up, and didn't understand the context.

Oh boy Another "obvious" claim. Do you think that you can support that one? By the way, accusing others of "making stuff up" is close to breaking the forum rules. Why on Earth would I need to make stuff up when the Bible can be used to support almost any position?

 

[Wildswanderer]

BUT Jesus does not know what those words are, he does not create those words and tells us that, so how can Jesus BE THE WORD from the beginning because then Jesus would already know everything with no need for God to give him the words needed at the time to teach.

Because he lowered himself and took on flesh... But where does it say Jesus as a man didn't know everything? Jesus was the Word from the start, he wasn't a created being. He created everything along with the Father and the spirit... they can't be separated. Saying he speaks the father's words doesn't make him any less than God. The spirit also speaks God's words. God and Jesus are one, as he said.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Oh boy Another "obvious" claim. Do you think that you can support that one? By the way, accusing others of "making stuff up" is close to breaking the forum rules. Why on Earth would I need to make stuff up when the Bible can be used to support almost any position?

Because you are making stuff up by claiming I meant something I never said. Maybe it's just your reading comprehension.

 

[Triumph]

Because he lowered himself and took on flesh... But where does it say Jesus as a man didn't know everything? Jesus was the Word from the start, he wasn't a created being. He created everything along with the Father and the spirit... they can't be separated. Saying he speaks the father's words doesn't make him any less than God. The spirit also speaks God's words. God and Jesus are one, as he said.

Read John 8:28 -- Then said Jesus unto them,>> and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things<<. Jesus had to be taught the words of God, he did not already know them. In verse 26 Jesus says he hears the words from God not that he already knows the words from God.
John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

 

[2ndpillar]

All Church's denominations have the possibility of producing good or bad fruit depending on their leaders and whether they have real or fake believers. The Catholic and Protestant churches have also produced a lot of good fruit..changed lives saves souls and helped the poor. Most charities started as Christain organizations in this country.

Apparently, most churches have the mark of the beast on their foreheads, which could be seen on Biden and Manchen last Ash Wednesday, the symbol of the sun god, Sol Invictus (god of Constantine), the cross, whose day of worship is Sunday, the day of the sun god. Whether they take money from the parishioners, with some taken off the top, and give to the poor or not is out of your hands. If your neighbor is without food, you can directly help, and not rely on the church with their high overhead to help them or not. Leaving your well being, fruit produced, to the church is probably not a wise decision. I am sure most of the churches have believers. The question is what they believe is actually "real", or not. The Roman Catholic charity orphanages of Ireland, had a little too many graves in their burial plots, and a lot accusations coming from the orphans. Are those who gave funds to the church to be held responsible for their lack of due diligence? Did they produce "good fruit"?

 

[Wildswanderer]

Read John 8:28 -- Then said Jesus unto them,>> and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things<<. Jesus had to be taught the words of God, he did not already know them. In verse 26 Jesus says he hears the words from God not that he already knows the words from God.
John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

It's a manner of speaking.
Throughout the New Testament the Son is subordinate to the Father’s authority. There is no conflict between them, because the Son and the Father always agree.
Jesus is just confirming that the Father is the head of the three members of the Trinity.

 

[MyM]

Many people that call themselves Christians believe God will kill people that are not Christians and they should kill people that do not believe their sect of religion is the only religion. They are not real Christians and not following Jesus that commanded love even your enemies as beloved brothers. Many Muslims believe Allah will kill people and that they are required by Allah to kill people that do not believe their religion is the only true religion. Christians have killed Christians over differences of Christian beliefs. Muslims kill Muslims over the same thing, they believe only their sect of Islam is the correct one.
The true God commands do not kill anyone. If they are evil, it is because they are mentally sick in need of a compassionate doctor not a death penalty sentence. They do not know what they are doing, so teach them only with grace and generous consideration of the conditions of the people, if they need help in survival. Differences of doctrine should always be resolved with compassion, discussion, respect for one another as equals, kindness, mercy, love for the right to God given life of the other person never on a battlefield, never with slaughter over differences of religion.

true, some muslims are really wacko and think they can kill
some christians are wacko too as they think they can kill
very difficult to say that everyone is equal...many feel arrogant and narcissistic when doing these things and have no feelins of "appropriateness or decency". Not everyone can be dealt with ....by words.

In Islam, there is an eye for an eye. "literally".

“And whoever is killed wrongfully (Mazlooman intentionally with hostility and oppression and not by mistake), We have given his heir the authority [to demand Qisaas-Law of Equality in punishment or to forgive, or to take Diyah (blood money)]. But let him not exceed limits in the matter of taking life (i.e. he should not kill except the killer)” [al-Isra’ 17:33]
“Al-Qisaas (the Law of Equality in punishment) is prescribed for you in case of murder”
al-Baqarah 2:178

Allah is the fairest.

 

[Wildswanderer]

Apparently, most churches have the mark of the beast on their foreheads, which could be seen on Biden and Manchen last Ash Wednesday, the symbol of the sun god, Sol Invictus (god of Constantine), the cross, whose day of worship is Sunday, the day of the sun god. Whether they take money from the parishioners, with some taken off the top, and give to the poor or not is out of your hands. If your neighbor is without food, you can directly help, and not rely on the church with their high overhead to help them or not. Leaving your well being, fruit produced, to the church is probably not a wise decision.

Then don't. It depends on your church leaders. My church will give to anyone in need. If we go to the pastor and say that someone needs food or anything he will literally give us a check from the church or the food itself to give them. So it's not out of our hands. If we don't have the money to give ourselves to the person who needs help the church provides it.

 

[MyM]

Read John 8:28 -- Then said Jesus unto them,>> and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things<<. Jesus had to be taught the words of God, he did not already know them. In verse 26 Jesus says he hears the words from God not that he already knows the words from God.
John 14:24
He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

He also said,

1. 
   [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:18

If Jesus was God from the beginning, he would not belittle himself. He would tell the world HE IS GOD BUT HE DIDN'T!

 

[Triumph]

He also said,

1. 
   [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:18

If Jesus was God from the beginning, he would not belittle himself. He would tell the world HE IS GOD BUT HE DIDN'T!

This is a good point you make here. The reason Jesus said he wasn't "good" is Jesus had trouble controlling his anger towards people
that did not believe what he told them. They wanted to kill Jesus for not following their traditional beliefs based on blood sacrifice laws Abraham established.
So Jesus lashed the temple priests driving them out of the building and throwing over the money changers tables because they were using religion to get rich by not giving it to the poor.
Jesus is sorrowful and repentant that he behaved in anger when Jesus said "why call me good", but note he did not commit any deadly sin and he never did anything in anger again.
They were threatening to kill Jesus and accomplished his murder, which is a deadly sin, but Jesus was not threatening to kill them. Jesus was only demanding they change their religious beliefs, but he did it at that moment in a way unacceptable by God.
Jesus was required by God to become water baptized to express obedience to God to achieve forgiveness of his inappropriate actions thus be sinless in the sight of God.

 

[MyM]

This is a good point you make here. The reason Jesus said he wasn't "good" is Jesus had trouble controlling his anger towards people
that did not believe what he told them. They wanted to kill Jesus for not following their traditional beliefs based on blood sacrifice laws Abraham established.
So Jesus lashed the temple priests driving them out of the building and throwing over the money changers tables because they were using religion to get rich by not giving it to the poor.
Jesus is sorrowful and repentant that he behaved in anger when Jesus said "why call me good", but note he did not commit any deadly sin and he never did anything in anger again.
They were threatening to kill Jesus which is a deadly sin, but Jesus was not threatening to kill them. Jesus was only demanding they change their religious beliefs, but he did it at that moment in a way unacceptable by God.
Jesus was required by God to become water baptized to express obedience to God to achieve forgiveness of his inappropriate actions thus be sinless in the sight of God.

In Islam, we don't believe in that. We believe that Jesus was a mighty messenger of God. That he healed and helped and did miracles by God's permission. Everything he did, he did as a messenger of God. (on him peace). He never claimed to be God in any part of his mission for that would be overstepping his duty.

The only requirement for Allah to forgive us is not to do shirk (associate any partners or anything to Him) and to believe in His message. He is the most gracious the most merciful. We are to pray to him and ask him forgiveness. No need for anything else. We go straight to him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Because you are making stuff up by claiming I meant something I never said. Maybe it's just your reading comprehension.

Perhaps, or it could have been poor writing skills on your part. When I quoted the full post it still supported my version.

 

[Triumph]

In Islam, we don't believe in that. We believe that Jesus was a mighty messenger of God. That he healed and helped and did miracles by God's permission. Everything he did, he did as a messenger of God. (on him peace). He never claimed to be God in any part of his mission for that would be overstepping his duty.

The only requirement for Allah to forgive us is not to do shirk (associate any partners or anything to Him) and to believe in His message. He is the most gracious the most merciful. We are to pray to him and ask him forgiveness. No need for anything else. We go straight to him.

Jesus is a mighty messenger from God and a prophet of the future. What is important to learn is what are those prophetic messages written in parables and symbolism that Jesus gives us.

The mother of Ishmael, Hagar should never have been a slave. Abraham desired slaves and threatened war and fought battles to get them. Hagar had the God given right to be a free woman. Ishmael should never have had to have a mother that was enslaved which altered the inheritance status of Ishmael as first born son of Abraham. Abraham required Ismael to carry the stigma of not being a son of marriage. God did not create that stigma, Abraham did by enslaving his mother not allowing her to be a free woman.
From the teaching of Jesus, slavery should not exist and inheritance should be divided equally among children, no child favored above another.

 

[MyM]

Jesus is a mighty messenger from God and a prophet of the future. What is important to learn is what are those prophetic messages written in parables and symbolism that Jesus gives us.

The mother of Ishmael, Hagar should never have been a slave. Abraham desired slaves and threatened war and fought battles to get them. Hagar had the God given right to be a free woman. Ishmael should never have had to have a mother that was enslaved which altered the inheritance status of Ishmael as first born son of Abraham. Abraham required Ismael to carry the stigma of not being a son of marriage. God did not create that stigma, Abraham did by enslaving his mother not allowing her to be a free woman.
From the teaching of Jesus, slavery should not exist and inheritance should be divided equally among children, no child favored above another.

Actually, in Islam, Abraham's first wife was Hagar and Ismail was his/her first born. In Islam, the Bible is completely wrong. She was a revered women in Islam. They claim IsHaq(Issac) to go along with their beliefs. Ismail was highly praised and so was IsHaq. They both came from a beloved Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him and his family) and they both had tribes later on...IsHaq for the Jews and Ismaill for the Arabs. They both were deemed worthy and blessed.

Allah says in the Quran,

“And We bestowed upon him Ishaaq (Isaac) and Ya‘qoob (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nooh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawood (David), Sulaymaan (Solomon), Ayyoob (Job), Yoosuf (Joseph), Moosa (Moses), and Haaroon (Aaron). Thus do We reward Al-Muhsinoon (the good-doers).

And Zakariyya (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Eesa (Jesus) and Ilyaas (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

And Isma‘eel (Ishmael) and Al-Yasaa‘ (Elisha), and Yoonus (Jonah) and Loot (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Aalameen [mankind and jinn (of their times)]” [al-An’aam 6:84-86]

 

[Triumph]

Actually, in Islam, Abraham's first wife was Hagar and Ismail was his/her first born. In Islam, the Bible is completely wrong. She was a revered women in Islam. They claim IsHaq(Issac) to go along with their beliefs. Ismail was highly praised and so was IsHaq. They both came from a beloved Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him and his family) and they both had tribes later on...IsHaq for the Jews and Ismaill for the Arabs. They both were deemed worthy and blessed.

Allah says in the Quran,

“And We bestowed upon him Ishaaq (Isaac) and Ya‘qoob (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nooh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawood (David), Sulaymaan (Solomon), Ayyoob (Job), Yoosuf (Joseph), Moosa (Moses), and Haaroon (Aaron). Thus do We reward Al-Muhsinoon (the good-doers).

And Zakariyya (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Eesa (Jesus) and Ilyaas (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

And Isma‘eel (Ishmael) and Al-Yasaa‘ (Elisha), and Yoonus (Jonah) and Loot (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Aalameen [mankind and jinn (of their times)]” [al-An’aam 6:84-86]

Interesting, that is a different account of religious history compared to the Bible. On the topic of Jinn, the people in history did see what they called Jinn but they had no advanced knowledge of science to understand what they were viewing. Because it is rare, dramatic and brief, people trying to discern what it could be, assigned the event as a "spirit". They saw smokeless fire, also called cold fire today that looks like layers of transparent black flickering flames without any heat. It is a very rare but natural event that can only be viewed in an area that already is in dim light like in a thicket or in the shadow of a ledge.
A " fire flame" that emits heat has maximal temperature below 400 degree C (752 degree F).The freezing point of methane is -295 degrees F and the event of melting methane can combine with gases in the ground to produce a "cool" flame that flickers like real fire with the same shapes as actual fire and looks transparently black . Again, what those men in history saw was not a spiritual event, it was a natural geological event of gases rising out of the ground that they did not understand.

 

[MyM]

Interesting, that is a different account of religious history compared to the Bible. On the topic of Jinn, the people in history did see what they called Jinn but they had no advanced knowledge of science to understand what they were viewing. Because it is rare, dramatic and brief, people trying to discern what it could be, assigned the event as a "spirit". They saw smokeless fire, also called cold fire today that looks like layers of transparent black flickering flames without any heat. It is a very rare but natural event that can only be viewed in an area that already is in dim light like in a thicket or in the shadow of a ledge.
A " fire flame" that emits heat has maximal temperature below 400 degree C (752 degree F).The freezing point of methane is -295 degrees F and the event of melting methane can combine with gases in the ground to produce a "cool" flame that flickers like real fire with the same shapes as actual fire and looks transparently black . Again, what those men in history saw was not a spiritual event, it was a natural geological event of gases rising out of the ground that they did not understand.

There's a lot of information about Jinn in Islam. They are part of the unseen and made from smokeless fire. There are good jinn and bad jinn and very evil jinn. Islam has ways of dealing with Jinn and never ever go seek them out. They can cause harm, damage and they can easily possess. There are many many things they can do. There are ways to protect yourself from the jinn in Islam as well.

be safe

 

[nPeace]

He also said,

1. 
   [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. Mark 10:18

If Jesus was God from the beginning, he would not belittle himself. He would tell the world HE IS GOD BUT HE DIDN'T!

I have a question for you.
Have you managed to work out how persons are on the one hand, claiming Jesus is God, and on the other hand, saying Jesus is from God?