If you were forgiven, then you and your fellow followers of Paul would have been healed. Neither they nor you have been healed, and "everyone will die for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30) As it is, the followers of Paul, daughters of Babylon, all carry the plagues of her (Revelation 18:4). Their only release will be their own deaths, but come the "great tribulation", though they may wish to die, they will not be able (Revelation 9:6).
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
Paul - An Apostle?
- Thread starter nPeace
- Start date
If you were forgiven, then you and your fellow followers of Paul would have been healed. Neither they nor you have been healed, and "everyone will die for their own iniquities" (Jeremiah 31:30) As it is, the followers of Paul, daughters of Babylon, all carry the plagues of her (Revelation 18:4). Their only release will be their own deaths, but come the "great tribulation", though they may wish to die, they will not be able (Revelation 9:6).
The devil quoted the scripture to Yeshua, and Paul quotes scripture as well. Yeshua preserved the message of the devil/enemy, when he told his workers to leave the tares in the field (Matthew 13:25-29). At least until the "end of the age", which is where we are now. Now "those who commit lawlessness" will be gathered out and "cast into the furnace of fire" (Matthew 13:39-42). Paul noted the "holy writings" as those read from his youth. He apparently didn't read his own writings from his youth, no matter how highly you think of him.
If Paul was forgiven, then Satan wouldn't have been able to put a thorn in his side. Paul, as the false prophet, as well as the beast, and the devil, will apparently not be forgiven of their sins, for they wind up in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10) where they will be "tormented day and night forever and ever". As for Peter, the "worthless shepherd" of Zechariah 11:17, he apparently doesn't follow Paul's forever and ever path. Peter may have been incompetent and egotistical, but he played his role, and apparently grieved because of his faults (Zechariah 13:4-7).
There are two types of fruit, the good, versus the rotten. An example of bad fruit is the Inquisition, and the burning of saints. Those who don't produce fruit in accordance with their repentance will be cut down and burnt (Matthew 3:10). The daughter of the Roman church is the Protestant church, who had a gay time burning Catholics and witches. Like mother, like daughter. And what are you "saved" from? You will surely die (Jeremiah 31:30), and you will surely remain in your sins, as shown per the plagues of the daughters of Babylon. (Revelation 18:4). The "fruit" simply saves one from being cut down and burned (Matthew 3:10) The bad/rotten fruit simply points out the tree (false prophet) that one is fallen from. (Matthew 7:13-23)
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
There was no bait and switch. That is appears to be all in your mind. This is what you said:
"It's obvious because he allowed people to worship him for one. You can certainly choose to believe he was only pretending to be God if you want to reject scripture entirely, but there's no doubt that he made the claim."
By the way, you had a false assumption in there. That Jesus would have to pretend to be God to say what the Bible says the he said, if it was not true.. He could have been misinterpreted. The Gospel accounts could be in error. He could have been insane. The list goes on. There is no good reason to assume that it had to be real or it had to be duplicity. Meanwhile you have as yet to support your claims at all besides claiming "It's obvious" (Please note the only "switch" that I made was "It is" for "It's". I do not see how that changed the meaning of anything.)
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
That's because the Jews know far more than you do about the Tanakh, and I am afraid that's not very commendable, since the Jews do far worst than you - rejecting even the Gospels.
Jesus is the son of David.
It says so in the very book you claim to know. Makes me wonder how you read it.
(Matthew 9:27) . . .As Jesus moved on from there, two blind men followed him, shouting out: “Have mercy on us, Son of David.”
All Jews thought Jesus was a son of David because Joseph was a son of David. But Joseph is not the biological father of Jesus so Jesus is not a son of David.
(Matthew 20:29-34) 29 As they were going out of Jericho, a large crowd followed him. 30 And look! two blind men sitting beside the road heard that Jesus was passing by and cried out: “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!” 31 But the crowd rebuked them, telling them to keep silent; yet they cried all the louder, saying: “Lord, have mercy on us, Son of David!” 32 So Jesus stopped, called them, and said: “What do you want me to do for you?” 33 They said to him: “Lord, let our eyes be opened.” 34 Moved with pity, Jesus touched their eyes, and immediately they recovered their sight, and they followed him. Jesus again knew these men were Jews and they thought Joseph was the father of Jesus. They were blind and Jesus was interested in helping them. That does not mean Joseph is the blood father of Jesus.
(Matthew 15:22) . . .And look! a Phoenician woman from that region came and cried out: “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David. My daughter is cruelly demon possessed.”(Matthew 12:23-25) 23 Well, all the crowds were astounded and began to say: “May this not perhaps be the Son of David?” 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. Jesus knew this woman did not know him other than what she had been told by Jews that refuse to accept a virgin birth of Jesus. Had Jesus told the Pharisees he is a son of David then they would NEVER say his miracles come from Beelzebub, the Pharisees would shout Lord God is blessing the son of David with miracles.
The temple knows Jesus is rejecting being titled the son of David but in public Jews want people to think the power is coming through David to Jesus.
Notice that Jesus did not rebuke the crowds, who were looking for the words of the prophets to be fulfilled. Jesus is their Christ, just not the military Christ they are expecting.
Check it out for yourself.
(Luke 1:26-33) 26 In her sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, 27 to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David’s house, and the name of the virgin was Mary. 28 And coming in, the angel said to her: “Greetings, you highly favored one, Jehovah is with you.” 29 But she was deeply disturbed at his words and tried to understand what kind of greeting this might be. 30 So the angel said to her: “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. 31 And look! you will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus.
32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom.”
The angel did not lie, Jesus is called son of the most high by the Jews, they refuse to call Jesus, Son of God. Abraham invented the Hebrew/Jewish Lord God for Jews to worship. God the Father of Jesus is not Lord God that Abraham invented to give himself a royal throne. Jesus said Abraham never heard the voice of God. Jesus does not worship the same God that the Jews worship. There is only one true God but Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David never worshiped him. Jesus said there is NO salvation in the well of Jacob, it is dry, dead because it is based on lies. Jews DID give Jesus the throne of David by calling him David's son but Jesus rejected the offer of being their king and rejected the title king in a court of Law during his trial. Jesus refused their throne based on THEIR laws that Jesus refused to obey because they were not laws from God.
BUT Jesus does rule over the house of Jacob in that in the end of days the 12 Apostles are going to judge the 12 tribes of Israel to determine their righteousness. Since Jesus said no Pharisee is in the kingdom of Heaven and Jews are not water baptized, not having the water of life that Jesus offered them, it is doubtful any house of Jacob are accepted into the kingdom of God. That kingdom of God is forever ruled by righteousness, and they won't be in it.
Perhaps you don't like Luke by now, because he debunks every false claim you make. Luke is a beloved brother.
A very highly honored angel said Jesus is the son of David. What more proof do we want. Jews call him the son of David and Jesus rejects that throne and name. The Angel said he will be CALLED that not that Jesus IS that.
(Matthew 21:15-17) 15 When the chief priests and the scribes saw the marvelous things he did and the boys who were shouting in the temple, “Save, we pray, the Son of David!” they became indignant 16 and said to him: “Do you hear what these are saying?” Jesus said to them: “Yes. Did you never read this, ‘Out of the mouth of children and infants, you have brought forth praise’?” 17 And leaving them behind, he went out of the city to Bethany and spent the night there Jews were threatening to kill Jesus and these boys loved Jesus praising him, supporting him. Not wanting to agitate the Priests into anger or death threats to themselves, they shouted, "Save the Son of David". To call Jesus the Son of God as he taught, would have been considered blasphemy by temple priests and could result in the murder/death of the boys.
(Matthew 21:9)
(Mark 11:9, 10) 9 And those going in front and those coming behind kept shouting: “Save, we pray! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name! 10 Blessed is the coming Kingdom of our father David! Save, we pray, in the heights above!” These were the same people that demanded Jesus die. David is THEIR father and they want Jesus to fight as a military commander for them so their nation and laws will rule. Jesus refuses to be their military leader and refuses to obey their religious laws.
Also speaking to Pharisees Jesus said,
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad."
NOTE Jesus did not say OUR father Abraham because Jesus is not in the
bloodline of Abraham/David.
All in line with the scriptures.
Jesus had many occasions to correct the crowds, if they were wrong, but they weren't. He was the seed of David.
...but you don't know that, do you. Or how he is the son of David.
I totally understand.
I am bursting with curiosity about which religion you were raised in, and who taught you.
I know of some that 'go to church', and the Bible is not what they carry.
Then you should not support anything you are saying, because no where in the Bible did Jesus ever, ever say he is not a son of David.
You are saying that, and if I were a gambling man, I would bet my house, all my clothing, all the food in my house, all the money on my bank account, all my shoes... what else... and my pc... that the scripture you will post does not say what you claim.
Show us the scripture where Jesus said he is not a son of David.
Mark 12:35
And Jesus answered and said, while he taught in the temple, How say the scribes that Christ is the Son of David?"
How = by what means, what is the basis of their belief and the answer is their traditional bloodline beliefs which are wrong because Joseph was not intimate with Mary to create Jesus Christ. Joseph a son of David is not the bloodline father of Jesus thus Jesus can not be a son of David. Joseph's other sons were "sons of David" but not Jesus the Son of God.
Matthew 22:45
If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
Luke 20:44
David therefore calleth him Lord, how is he then his son?"
Jesus Christ tells people he is not a son of David, he is the son of God.
John 7 -41Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee? 42Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? 43 So there was a division among the people because of him."
Jesus refuses to be called Jesus of Bethlehem because he wants nothing to do with David.
The Christ is from Galilee, Jesus of Nazareth.
After that, I hope... Not going to hold my breath... that would be suicide, that you would admit that you really do not support what Jesus said. Nor any part of the Bible.
That's funny. I read that baptism is in symbol of repentance of sins, and atonement for sins is through the blood of Christ.
I'm sure I quoted those scriptures for you.
Paul teaches what the Bible does - Jesus blood atones for, or covers sins, thereby allowing for forgiveness of sins.
Oh dear me.
Why don't you address all the posts where I showed up that nothing you say matches up with scripture?
It's obvious why you skip over these, and can't respond to them.
Do they show up any, as you put it... religious liars?
Paul did not ever say he lies, and there is again, no scripture you can find to support that dreadfully unscriptural and false claim. Here it is,
Romans 3:7
For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?"
The church Jesus established with the Apostles called Paul a sinner for lying giving himself the title of Apostle so Paul could glorify his version of God. Jesus allowed only 12 Apostles. Paul is not one of them.
For real?
Last edited:
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Jesus is part Mary not just in human form but spiritually one with her in love as he loves his Father God. You can not separate the Son from the Mother
and say Jesus is only the Father. It was the purity of Mary that God chose and that purity is also Jesus. God is not a human. Jesus left Earth in a human body
not to become God but to remain as he always was, a human part Mary and part God.
MyM
Well-Known Member
Then one will be going against the Bible when God is only ONE.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
Mary is just a sinful human. Regardless Jesus was pre existence, he wasn't created in Bethlehem.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
So? That refers to individuals, not certain churches being cut off. And a good tree WILL produce good fruit. It's not about what church real believers attend.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
You don't believe in scripture so your opinion is moot. Again what I said was that according to what scripture teaches it's obvious Jesus is God.
You try to switch it to a million what ifs that have nothing to do with what I stated.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
My belief or nonbelief is besides the point. And no, you kept making false claims. I only explained how they were wrong. You are also debating with a Muslim that does not believe.
If it is "obvious" you should be able to support that claim properly.
MyM
Well-Known Member
ok, so IS JESUS TALKING? or SOMEONE ELSE?
My comprehension is fine, but I think you don't understand English very well.
The rotten trees of Matthew 7:15-22 refers to the "false prophets" who produce bad fruit. The churches based on the false prophet Paul, the Roman and Protestant churches, have all historically produced bad fruit. Revelation 18:4 says you will have to come out of "her", those churches, or continue to receive of her "plagues". The trees which do not "bear good fruit" with respect to Matthew 3:4, was referring to the "vipers", the Pharisees and the corruption of the Jewish church, another daughter of Babylon, who was apparently cut down and thrown into the fire of 70 A.D., with respect to the destruction of Jerusalem, during the reign of the 6th head of the beast (Rev 17). Per Isaiah 22:25, the pope and his church are waiting for "in that day", the day of the LORD (Joel 2:31-32), to being "cut off", which is reinforced by Matthew 7:24-27.
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
Jesus never said he was God. If he was God then it would be going against God to not require people worship and pray to Jesus. Jesus refused to allow anyone to pray to him because he is not and never was God. Because of the power Jesus displayed with miracles, some people did worship him because all people have freedom of will but Jesus did not want any worship. Jesus leads people to God so they worship the correct God. Jesus is not a mediator to change the decisions of God because God's decisions are righteous and Jesus would never disagree with them. Jesus does not have more mercy than God does. Everyone is responsible for their own moral sins and secular crimes and must pray to God for forgiveness of them and become water baptized to open the door to forgiveness.
Jesus is "ONE" with God in the same way Jesus said when a man and woman get married they become ONE. They are one in love, loyalty and purpose to establish a good life together.
Mark 10:8
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
John 17:21t
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
.
Last edited:
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
All Church's denominations have the possibility of producing good or bad fruit depending on their leaders and whether they have real or fake believers. The Catholic and Protestant churches have also produced a lot of good fruit..changed lives saves souls and helped the poor. Most charities started as Christain organizations in this country.
Triumph
FREEDOM OF SPEECH
People are NOT born sinful. God's creations are not sin. Humans are born completely innocent with no knowledge of what acts their parents commit. Sin is a choice and yes it is possible to be so kind and loving and compassionate, never exalting their own ego, that a person can remain pure. God selected Mary because she was not sinful. Jesus was not born out of sin.
There is zero scripture that states Jesus had any preexistence. Jesus stated before Abraham, (the man that invented his own Lord God to worship), I AM existed, the Living and true God, Father of Jesus.
Before the lies of Abraham existed, the true God existed, I AM. There is only one God. That God did create Abraham and God also created the Greek that invented the god Zeus for people to worship. Neither worshipped the God that created them and the true God will judge them when they die.
Gifts from God at birth are freedom of will/choice and freedom of speech but people often use those gifts to exalt themselves above other humans using lies as Abraham and that Greek did.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
It's obvious that you are making stuff up, and didn't understand the context.
Wildswanderer
Veteran Member
All humans sin. 1 John 1:8: “If we make the statement, 'We have no sin,' we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us.” As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.
Micah 5:2
“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah,
From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel.
His goings forth are from long ago,
From the days of eternity.”
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
John 17:5
Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:24
Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Jesus always existed in harmony with the Father.