• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Palestine: Freedom Is What They Want

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Palestine: Freedom Is What They Want
by Charley Reese​


You might recall how President George W. Bush was wont to wax eloquent on the virtues of democracy and how often he spoke of spreading democracy to the Middle East.

You might not recall that there was a free and fair election in the occupied territories last year. Palestinian voters overwhelmingly chose a Hamas government over a slate of candidates offered by Fatah, a secular Palestinian organization.

They didn't make this choice out of religious beliefs or because they preferred "terrorists" to politicians. They made the choice because they were fed up with the corruption and brutality of the Fatah faction. They made the choice because Hamas had and still has a reputation for honesty and for a wide-ranging and compassionate health, education and welfare program.

Alas, President Bush discovered that he didn't like democracy after all. In his mind, democracy is only good if the election produces the results he wants it to produce. He immediately cut off aid and contact to the Palestinians, boycotted them and began a campaign to get other countries to withhold aid. These actions only harmed innocent Palestinian people. Since Hamas officials, unlike Fatah, were not in the habit of squandering public money on personal luxuries, the only people deprived by Bush's actions were ordinary people.

Now the president is pretending that the Fatah gunmen, whom he has been arming, were just sitting peacefully in the shade recently, trying their hand at knitting or crocheting, when all of the sudden those bad Hamas guys came up and started shooting. Regardless of Bush's lies, the truth is that Hamas fought back in self-defense. Between Fatah's gunmen and Israeli assassins, the Hamas guys must have felt like targets in a shooting gallery.

The Gaza Strip is a hellhole. It's a small patch of land, 41 kilometers long and about 6 to 12 kilometers wide. Its 360 square kilometers are crammed with 1.4 million Palestinians, about 1 million of them refugees from Israel's earlier wars. Unemployment is over 50 percent, and the poverty level is 60 percent. Nearly 18 percent of all children there suffer from malnutrition.

Israel controls its water supply and its air and land routes, and subjects its people to frequent closures, not to mention military attacks. It's true that some members of Hamas have resorted to terrorist acts, but the ratio of Israelis killed by Palestinians is small in comparison with Palestinians killed by Israelis. In the year 2006, according to B'Tselem, a respected Israeli human-rights organization, 660 Palestinians, including 141 children, were killed by Israelis, while only 23 Israelis were killed.

Try to visualize, if you can, 141 children. That's about the population of four average classrooms. Now visualize a heap of dead children. Those shot in the head are probably not recognizable, but you can see the bullet holes in the young, tender bodies of the others. If you can visualize this, then maybe you will get an inkling of the suffering inflicted on Palestinians by the Israelis.

The Palestinians don't deserve this. Their only sin was to be born in their own country, a country that was coveted by European Zionists and taken from them with the help of British colonialism. The fact that most American politicians prefer the indignity of acting like a crowd of timid foot-kissers for the Israeli lobby adds our own guilt to that of the Israelis.

Americans should remember the cliché "what goes around, comes around." Nobody gets a free pass to sin against humanity. The rest of the world sees us as we are. Other countries see the hypocrisy, the lies, the deliberate negligence of the American press. They see the callous disregard for death and suffering. To use the vernacular, we ain't making any friends in heaven or on Earth.

The tragedy is that nobody has to destroy Israel to provide justice to the Palestinians, but if they don't get justice, then Israel will eventually destroy itself, just as one of its best intellects has predicted. Palestinians want what William Wallace and our own ancestors wanted – freedom.



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

Is it so hard to understand that?



 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Palestinians, as individual people, want peace.

Palestine, as a nation, wants the destruction of Israel.

Give Palestine to the people and maybe there will be peace
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Palestinians, as individual people, want peace.

Palestine, as a nation, wants the destruction of Israel.

Give Palestine to the people and maybe there will be peace

The problem is that some people don't even recognize the right for the Palestinians to exist in that land, because they are not the so called chosen people!
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
The problem is that some people don't even recognize the right for the Palestinians to exist in that land, because they are not the so called chosen people!

I would think this is an even bigger contributor:

The Gaza Strip is a hellhole. It's a small patch of land, 41 kilometers long and about 6 to 12 kilometers wide. Its 360 square kilometers are crammed with 1.4 million Palestinians, about 1 million of them refugees from Israel's earlier wars. Unemployment is over 50 percent, and the poverty level is 60 percent. Nearly 18 percent of all children there suffer from malnutrition.

When people are desperate and without hope, they do crazy and violent things. It doesn't matter what part of the world it is or the prevailing religion in the area.
 

UnityNow101

Well-Known Member
The question could be, how much of the Palestinian's land do the Israelis want? This is NOT an easy situation. The land belongs to the Palestinians as much as it does the Israelis. It is just a shame that they cannot come together and work all of this out. But as long as each side has their egotistical all or nothing attitude, NOTHING will ever be accomplished. Both sides want bloodshed and the Israelis don't even have the decency to give the Palestinians some of the most basic of human rights. The truth is, the world would probably have been better off if the British had never given that land over to the Zionists. The Israel/Palestine problem is the underlying reason for most of the worlds conflicts today, and neither side has a monopoly on the truth.
 

jamaesi

To Save A Lamb
The question could be, how much of the Palestinian's land do the Israelis want? This is NOT an easy situation. The land belongs to the Palestinians as much as it does the Israelis. It is just a shame that they cannot come together and work all of this out. But as long as each side has their egotistical all or nothing attitude, NOTHING will ever be accomplished. Both sides want bloodshed and the Israelis don't even have the decency to give the Palestinians some of the most basic of human rights. The truth is, the world would probably have been better off if the British had never given that land over to the Zionists. The Israel/Palestine problem is the underlying reason for most of the worlds conflicts today, and neither side has a monopoly on the truth.

Most of the Israelis and Palestinians DO want to live in peace. Check out the One Voice Movement.
 

sindbad5

Active Member
Palestine, as a nation, wants the destruction of Israel.

it's weird seeing the victim wants the destruction of the murderer

The Truth said:
The problem is that some people don't even recognize the right for the Palestinians to exist in that land, because they are not the so called chosen people!
yeah, unfortunately the people who want that are the people who have the whole power.

i guess if Palestine is east timor, it was to enjoy its independence tenth of years ago.

or if Palestinians is the chosen people (besides having eanugh lobby over the men who rule the strongest country nowdays) they was probably to enjoy independence.

or if Palestine swim over a lake of oil, it was to be the latest state of that greatest country now
 

sindbad5

Active Member
no comment

i was kidding ,,,

Zionists don't stop accusing Palestinians and Arabs of hating them,
what's strange is that they appear if this happen for no reasons.

well, if somebody see that what Zionists do to Palestinians and Arabs are not enough to hate them, well, may god put him in the same situation, and when this happen, let's see what he will feel.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
i was kidding ,,,

Zionists don't stop accusing Palestinians and Arabs of hating them,
what's strange is that they appear if this happen for no reasons.

well, if somebody see that what Zionists do to Palestinians and Arabs are not enough to hate them, well, may god put him in the same situation, and when this happen, let's see what he will feel.

again, how much of the land do they want?

what would you like to happen to the " zionists"?
 

sindbad5

Active Member
again, how much of the land do they want?

what would you like to happen to the " zionists"?

actually their are 3 answers to such a questions:
the first; palastenians want palastine, the historic palastine, the land from the sea to the river who used to live on it until only 50 years ago.
so, what about the jews? jews found nowdays in palastine are divided into 2 categories:
1- the jews live side by side with arabs, before israel era, they are citizens of palastine and have all the rights as to the arabs.
2- the jews come as migrants and occupier to the arabs lands since 1930th till now (including the 1.5 million russian who escaped from the former soviet union in 90th) have no rights to live on this land and should return back to thier home countries.

the second answer, the whole palastine should be unified under 1 country with 2 ethnics, arabs and jews, in a democratic racism-free way, no superiority from anyone over the other.

the second answer, 2 countries, israel return back the whole land it occupies since 1967, and a really independent new country to be established on these settlements-free lands.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
actually their are 3 answers to such a questions:
the first; palastenians want palastine, the historic palastine, the land from the sea to the river who used to live on it until only 50 years ago.
so, what about the jews? jews found nowdays in palastine are divided into 2 categories:
1- the jews live side by side with arabs, before israel era, they are citizens of palastine and have all the rights as to the arabs.
2- the jews come as migrants and occupier to the arabs lands since 1930th till now (including the 1.5 million russian who escaped from the former soviet union in 90th) have no rights to live on this land and should return back to thier home countries.

the second answer, the whole palastine should be unified under 1 country with 2 ethnics, arabs and jews, in a democratic racism-free way, no superiority from anyone over the other.

the second answer, 2 countries, israel return back the whole land it occupies since 1967, and a really independent new country to be established on these settlements-free lands.


i still can't get the map picture in my head. so the jew need to back up 20 miles? 50 miles?

thanks for your reply.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
What does that matter to you if it was 20 or 50?

I still don't see where you want to get at!



what i am getting at is i hear, " jews get off our land"! but i don't know how much of it is " there " land. if i knew " how much" land they wanted back i could wrap my mind around it.

again, how much should jews pull back, 10, 20, 50, 100 miles back?
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
the historic palastine, the land from the sea to the river who used to live on it until only 50 years ago.

Do you have any historical evidence of this? The land from the sea to the river has existed under a multitude of nations, why do a bunch of refugees from Arab nations throughout the Middle East have a claim to this ground?

I agree that the Palestinians have a right to exist as a Nation but not because of a historical claim to the land. Nope, they are getting it the old fashioned way. They are conquering it. They are in a war over land, they are claiming the land is their’s and taking it. The current owners are losing. All the propaganda about historical rights and my great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather stopped to take a **** here therefore it's mine is just that, propaganda.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
what i am getting at is i hear, " jews get off our land"! but i don't know how much of it is " there " land. if i knew " how much" land they wanted back i could wrap my mind around it.

again, how much should jews pull back, 10, 20, 50, 100 miles back?

I should think it necessary for the Israelis to find a way to pull their settlements out of the West Bank, as they did in Gaza. Obviously it's not as simple as just packing up and going, because security issues are huge, however, rocka consider that many Palestinians are very willing to have a 2-state solution.

Well, that's fine, but look at the map of settlements in the West Bank. If their going to have their own state, then it needs not to be "occupied."

Would *you* be content with a situation like this? I wouldn't think so.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/st...nd_palestinians/key_maps/jewish_sett_west.stm

This article might be interesting as well:
JERUSALEM, Nov. 21 -- An Israeli advocacy group has found that 39 percent of the land used by Jewish settlements in the West Bank is private Palestinian property, which the organization contends is a violation of international and Israeli law guaranteeing property rights in the occupied territories.

Full article here:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/21/AR2006112100482.html

Rocka, there's plenty of info out there from reputable sources that speak to the unjust situation the average Palestinian has to put up with. Google "West Bank settlements" just for starters. Adding "map" to your search will narrow it down a bit.

The more you research this, the more I'm betting you'll understand the beef many Palestinians have. There can be no peace without justice, and it's time the world takes a look at this.

Yes, I know the Palestinians have been poorly led.
I know the Israelis have legitimate complaints as well.

It's high time the world stopped taking sides and instead started looking at all sides.

This problem is a wart on the nose of the entire world, and we will have no chance for peace until some compassion and some justice are found.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
What does that matter to you if it was 20 or 50?

I still don't see where you want to get at!

Rocka is an American, Truth, and one thing you will almost NEVER see in the news here is a map of who controls what in the West Bank. If we saw that on a regular basis, opinions here would be very different.

But our media here is incompetent at best, and we would rather spend more time on the antics of bimbos like Paris Hilton than actually inform anyone about the conditions in Israel and Palestine in any meanful way.
 

rocka21

Brother Rock
thanks for the maps booko!

In a pre-emptive attack on Egypt on 5 June 1967 that drew Syria and Jordan into a regional war, Israel made massive territorial gains capturing the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Golan Heights and the Sinai Peninsula up to the Suez Canal.

so Israel was attacked , and then grabed the land?

i guess to the victor went the spoils.

i wonder how much land would have been taken by the other side if they had won the war? i wonder?
 
Top