Paid Pastors/Ministry?

[Firstborner]

Most congregations today have some system of paid ministry in place. What are the scriptures in support of this?

I know some view it as necessary to promote the gospel, while others consider it a hindrance because the church is often viewed by the masses as just big business. What is your take?

Jesus said, "the hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." (John 10:13) Discuss.

 

[fallingblood]

Most congregations today have some system of paid ministry in place. What are the scriptures in support of this?

I know some view it as necessary to promote the gospel, while others consider it a hindrance because the church is often viewed by the masses as just big business. What is your take?

Jesus said, "the hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." (John 10:13) Discuss.

The Jewish religious leaders did have a form of pay in order for their work. So it really does go back to a very early time in which religious leaders did receive some type of compensation, or more like support.

 

[idea]

Most congregations today have some system of paid ministry in place. What are the scriptures in support of this?

I know some view it as necessary to promote the gospel, while others consider it a hindrance because the church is often viewed by the masses as just big business. What is your take?

Jesus said, "the hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep." (John 10:13) Discuss.

My church does not have paid ministry... all of us volunteer to keep things up and running.

(Old Testament | Micah 3:10 - 12)
10 They build up Zion with blood, and Jerusalem with iniquity.
11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
12 Therefore shall Zion for your sake be plowed as a field, and Jerusalem shall become heaps, and the mountain of ethe house as the high places of the forest.

God did not like "preaching for money" and destroyed Jerusalem to get rid of the practice...

(New Testament | 1 Peter 5:2)
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;

 

[Firstborner]

The Jewish religious leaders did have a form of pay in order for their work. So it really does go back to a very early time in which religious leaders did receive some type of compensation, or more like support.

That they did, it was the Levitical priesthood that enabled the sacrifices for Israel. It was supported by tithing. From a Christian standpoint didn't that all disappear at the cross?

 

[waitasec]

The Jewish religious leaders did have a form of pay in order for their work. So it really does go back to a very early time in which religious leaders did receive some type of compensation, or more like support.

you think todays million dollar mega chruches thrive on support...or a ponzi scheme?

 

[idea]

The Jewish religious leaders did have a form of pay in order for their work. So it really does go back to a very early time in which religious leaders did receive some type of compensation, or more like support.

the scribes and pharisees worked for money - which is the big reason they hated Jesus...

(Old Testament | Numbers 18:23 - 24)
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

everything went to the Lord, not to the Levites... they owned no property, ate donated food, sacrificed everything else... there was nothing that they could call their own to hand down to their children though - spiritual knowledge was all that they owned.

 

[idea]

That they did, it was the Levitical priesthood that enabled the sacrifices for Israel. It was supported by tithing. From a Christian standpoint didn't that all disappear at the cross?

We still pay tithing (10%) which goes towards maintaining the buildings, missionary work, welfare programs... but our bishop and teachers all have normal day-jobs (lawyers, teachers, pilots, accountants - we all work during the week)

 

[Firstborner]

We still pay tithing (10%) which goes towards maintaining the buildings, missionary work, welfare programs... but our bishop and teachers all have normal day-jobs (lawyers, teachers, pilots, accountants - we all work during the week)

That's interesting. Is that true of the entire hierarchy of the church? You belong to a very large organization. I hear that the JWs also do not have paid support, except for perhaps a few top dogs, and they do not even use tithes. The faith I have known uses no tithes or paid ministry.

 

[idea]

That's interesting. Is that true of the entire hierarchy of the church? You belong to a very large organization. I hear that the JWs also do not have paid support, except for perhaps a few top dogs, and they do not even use tithes. The faith I have known uses no tithes or paid ministry.

yes, everyone pays tithing (or they are unable to go to the temple).

there are a few "top dogs" if you will who receive a living allowance, but it is not that large of an allowance - most of the "top dogs" are old retired people who have had a successful career and are able to retire / spend their retirement working for the church...

our top three:
President Monson - served in the U.S. Navy in WW2, graduated ”cum laude” from the University of Utah with a degree in business management, retired from a publishing and printing career.
President Eyring - a retired educator / scientist / and Harvard-trained businessman,
President Uchtdorf - retired German commercial pilot and airline executive

most of the "top dogs" take a pretty large pay-cut when they decide to start working full time for the church


If there is no tithing, what pays for the buildings/wellfare etc. etc.? just call it "donation" instead of "tithing"? same thing, different word?

 

[fallingblood]

That they did, it was the Levitical priesthood that enabled the sacrifices for Israel. It was supported by tithing. From a Christian standpoint didn't that all disappear at the cross?

Not completely. If we even look at Jesus, who had no other job as far as we know, spent his time preaching. In order to do this, he had people supporting him. In Luke we are told that Mary Magdalene as well as a few other women supported him. So there was still a support system in play.

We see this as well with Paul, who even thanks a few people for the support that they have given him. The idea of supporting religious leaders in some sense has been there for quite some time. And I think it is logical. When ministers and the like spend the majority of heir time doing work for the church, they don't really have the time to find a second job. And they are doing a service.

 

[idea]

Not completely. If we even look at Jesus, who had no other job as far as we know, spent his time preaching. In order to do this, he had people supporting him. In Luke we are told that Mary Magdalene as well as a few other women supported him. So there was still a support system in play.

We see this as well with Paul, who even thanks a few people for the support that they have given him. The idea of supporting religious leaders in some sense has been there for quite some time. And I think it is logical.

Jesus was able to feed 5,000 with a few loaves of bread... I don't think he needed "help" from anyone...

the apostles were fishermen...

Paul was a tent-maker I believe.

yep - Paul had a day-job too.
(New Testament | Acts 18:3)
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.


we all know about John the Baptist - he ate bugs / wore animal skins - so that no one had to spend their money to support him...

(New Testament | Matthew 3:3 - 4)
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, cPrepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.

(New Testament | Matthew 11:7 - 9)
7 And as they departed, Jesus began to say unto the multitudes concerning John, What went ye out into the wilderness to see? A reed shaken with the wind?
8 But what went ye out for to see? A man clothed in soft raiment? behold, they that wear soft clothing are in kings' houses.
9 But what went ye out for to see? A prophet? yea, I say unto you, and more than a prophet.

John did not live in the house of a king, he did not wear soft clothing...

When ministers and the like spend the majority of heir time doing work for the church, they don't really have the time to find a second job. And they are doing a service.

don't have time for a second job? ... imo it is better if everyone reads the scriptures for themselves rather than relying on others to study it for them... that is the excuse - "we need someone who went to school for this, and knows it" - everyone is supposed to know it - it's not like school helps (everyone still interprets it differently even after school sooo school has not cleared anything up for anyone)

there is a HUGE difference between someone like St. Francis dedicating their life to God (who lived a very humble life giving to the poor) and some of these people who are rich off of it...

 

[fallingblood]

you think todays million dollar mega chruches thrive on support...or a ponzi scheme?

I don't know if I would call it a ponzi scheme. Some probably do border on it (I don't want to call it a ponzi scheme as there really is no investment), but these churches are usually up front about their asking for money.

As with any service industry, and I would say that churches are definitely that, there are some who participate in unethical practices. And churches are no different here. But I wouldn't say all of them are unethical. They are providing a service, and they know how to market that service in a way to get a good return. And they are offering a service that many people need and/or want. So even though there are some unethical mega churches, I wouldn't group them all together.

I would say that many smaller churches do rely on the support though. The ministers in many of them are doing more than just preaching.

 

[fallingblood]

the scribes and pharisees worked for money - which is the big reason they hated Jesus...

(Old Testament | Numbers 18:23 - 24)
23 But the Levites shall do the service of the tabernacle of the congregation, and they shall bear their iniquity: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations, that among the children of Israel they have no inheritance.
24 But the tithes of the children of Israel, which they offer as an heave offering unto the LORD, I have given to the Levites to inherit: therefore I have said unto them, Among the children of Israel they shall have no inheritance.

everything went to the Lord, not to the Levites... they owned no property, ate donated food, sacrificed everything else... there was nothing that they could call their own to hand down to their children though - spiritual knowledge was all that they owned.

You just described that the Levites were supported by others. That is what donated food is. That is a form of support.

As for Jesus being hated by the scribes and Pharisees because they worked for money, you have supplied no evidence of that at all. So as it stands, it really isn't a credible point.

 

[fallingblood]

Jesus was able to feed 5,000 with a few loaves of bread... I don't think he needed "help" from anyone...

Yet the Bible does say that he did get help from others. As for feeding five thousand (I doubt it is a historical story in the first place), it really does not matter as there is no other indication that Jesus did anything like that. Instead, we are told in Luke 8:1-2 that Mary as well as a few other women supported Jesus and the disciples out of their own means. So yes, if you are to believe the Bible, Jesus did get help from others.

Paul was a tent-maker I believe.

yep - Paul had a day-job too.
(New Testament | Acts 18:3)
3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

I never said he didn't. What I said was that he also received additional support from others. He states so in his letters.

don't have time for a second job? ... imo it is better if everyone reads the scriptures for themselves rather than relying on others to study it for them... that is the excuse - "we need someone who went to school for this, and knows it" - everyone is supposed to know it - it's not like school helps (everyone still interprets it differently even after school sooo school has not cleared anything up for anyone)

School certainly does help. One can not understand Jesus without a proper understanding of Judaism in the first century. One can not understand that without a proper knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, and the historical context that they were created.

Knowing the actual Greek, and being able to read the scripture in their own language will great help in interpreting what the scripture says. Knowing the time period in which these works were created will help with understanding the actual situation. So on and so on.

More knowledge does definitely help.

As for not having time for a second job, that is partially because many ministers, besides just doing preaching, also do marriages, speak at funerals or other local events, visit the needy and provide support (whether they are in the hospital or the like), preaching at various other locations, doing counseling (which one does need school for in order to do properly), etc. Then there are the aspects of helping to keep the church running and being able to function properly. There is a lot more to being a minister then just preaching. That takes up a lot of time.

 

[idea]

You just described that the Levites were supported by others. That is what donated food is. That is a form of support.

there is a difference between food - and billion dollar houses...

[/quote]As for Jesus being hated by the scribes and Pharisees because they worked for money, you have supplied no evidence of that at all. So as it stands, it really isn't a credible point.[/quote]


(New Testament | Matthew 26:14 - 16)
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

it was about money and power... the scribes/pharisees did not like that their money base was dwindling away...

like overturning the tables in the temple - they turned the temple into a marketplace etc. etc. making money off of the offerings...


again
(New Testament | 1 Peter 5:1 - 3)
1 THE elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

 

[Songbird]

I don't see this as either an ethical issue or scripturally-prescriptive issue (or even a proscriptive one). I'd prefer religious organizations to be on a voluntary basis, but in the end, if I want to pay or support someone I do, and if not I don't.

 

[Neophyte]

It seems to me that if the pastor (preacher/bishop/etc.) works full time that he should be compensated. My dad is a pastor. He works a regular job as well. His church could not be able to afford to pay him full time. They do pay some money to him now, but he never asked for it. It is like working 2 full time jobs though. Also, when people have surgery, they want the pastor there. If the pastor must work another job there might now be a way to have him there. It is advantageous to pay a pastor, however, to much money is not a good idea. It can go to help the poor and such. To much money will corrupt in many occasions. So, a decent wage is fine but to much is not acceptable IMHO.

 

[idea]

Yet the Bible does say that he did get help from others. As for feeding five thousand (I doubt it is a historical story in the first place), it really does not matter as there is no other indication that Jesus did anything like that. Instead, we are told in Luke 8:1-2 that Mary as well as a few other women supported Jesus and the disciples out of their own means. So yes, if you are to believe the Bible, Jesus did get help from others.

Jesus occasionally ate dinner at various homes of friends - Jesus was not making money off of them though.

and if you do not believe in the miracles? then you don't really believe in any of it...

School certainly does help. One can not understand Jesus without a proper understanding of Judaism in the first century. One can not understand that without a proper knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures, and the historical context that they were created.

Knowing the actual Greek, and being able to read the scripture in their own language will great help in interpreting what the scripture says. Knowing the time period in which these works were created will help with understanding the actual situation. So on and so on.

More knowledge does definitely help.

it helps - but...

(Old Testament | Isaiah 5:21)
21 Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

(Old Testament | Proverbs 3:5)
5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

ultimate understanding does not come through some school (which is why they all disagree, 38,000 different denominations etc. etc.)

this is where real knowledge comes from:

(New Testament | John 14:26)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

The Holy Ghost is real, and really can teach us... this is where the prophets obtained their knowledge from - not from school - but directly from God.

As for not having time for a second job, that is partially because many ministers, besides just doing preaching, also do marriages, speak at funerals or other local events, visit the needy and provide support (whether they are in the hospital or the like), preaching at various other locations, doing counseling (which one does need school for in order to do properly), etc. Then there are the aspects of helping to keep the church running and being able to function properly. There is a lot more to being a minister then just preaching. That takes up a lot of time.

we do all of the above too - and we don't get paid...

 

[fallingblood]

there is a difference between food - and billion dollar houses...

And the vast vast majority of ministers have nothing of that sort. You can't judge the entire ordeal based on a very small minority.

(New Testament | Matthew 26:14 - 16)
14 Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15 And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16 And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.

This says absolutely nothing about the Pharisees or scribes. The chief priests were Sadducees. So the point really is moot. However, if we run with it, we will also see that it is never mentioned that anyone hated Jesus because of money.

it was about money and power... the scribes/pharisees did not like that their money base was dwindling away...

There was no suggestion of any of that in the passage. The scribes/pharisees were never mentioned. There was no mention of a money base dwindling. There is no suggestion that money and power were the reasons why the scribes or pharisees hated Jesus.

like overturning the tables in the temple - they turned the temple into a marketplace etc. etc. making money off of the offerings...

This just shows a lack of understanding of what was going on. They didn't turn the temple into a marketplace. The outer part of the Temple, the Gentile area, was where they would have exchanged money and provided offerings. There is a very logical reason for this, and really, it was needed.

Money used to buy offerings, and be used in the temple could not have the sign of any divinity or the like on it. The fact is, most money from the Diaspora, where many Jews were coming from, had just that. It was unacceptable according to Judaism. So the Temple allowed people to exchange their tainted money with money that was deemed acceptable.

As for the offerings, that was also needed. An offering had to be free of blemish. Carrying a lamb, or even dove all the way to Jerusalem simply would have been extremely difficult considering that one had to be very careful not to allow it to get a blemish. If it did, then they just wasted all of that time.

So in order to insure that all Jews coming to the Temple could have an acceptable offering, they sold them there. It was something of need.

More so, the throwing over of the tables and such had less to do with the money and such that was going on (again, which was actually needed in order for the Jews to participate in the offering), as it was to do with the entire Temple authority.

 

[idea]

It is like working 2 full time jobs though. .

It is - and it is amazing when people do this without any earthly compensation / reward. I believe that work which is done voluntarily - is work that is rewarded in heaven.

(New Testament | Matthew 6:1 - 4)
1 TAKE heed that ye do not your balms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.