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Pagan / Wiccan music

Discussion in 'Neopagan or Revival Religions' started by Sirona, Jan 11, 2019.

  1. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    Musically this is akin with "Pagan Metal" which is a term for one of the heavy metal music scenes that adorns itself with ancient symbolism. It is somewhat similar to Gothic Metal and Medieval Metal.

    It is very important for musical groups today to create their own niche to have a loyal crowd. Young men are pretty testosteron driven and also in search of a separate identity from their parents. Some who feel rejected/estranged by society look for something that rejects present day society. Through TV-series, Marvel and Fantasy movies, magazines, books, some feel attracted to glorifying visions of power (strengths, loyalty to ancestors ideas). This creates (Musical) subcultures that reflect that. Music has the emotional power to grab young people, especially If it is strengthened with suggestive paraphernalia and some sort of message of meaning, as many youngsters are struggling with that. Musicians have become quite inventive in this.
    [​IMG]
    I doubt grown-ups will confuse this with real traditions. They are not traditions for the simple reason that they are not handed down from previous generations or are likely to hand anything down to the next generation. Most followers will distance themselves from these subcultures as they grow up. And even if they do not and have children, their children will rather chose something that they can use to revolt to them. We saw the same thing in sixties with the hippie movement, that was an infinitely bigger movement with its own leaders, poets, thinkers, philosophers etc. that actually formed communities. But later generations did not follow in their footsteps. Though it influenced society, It did not turn into a new tradition.

    Same with this Mongol Music band. It is not based on traditional life. Mongols do have a great singing tradition. I think adding throat singing to their metal music is quite attractive. Instead of being the next Pagan Metal band in a over-saturated market, they should call their music "Mongol Metal" and become the foremost group in their own genre. I definitely think they have the potential to be successful and also appeal to followers of other adjacent Metal genres. They could be a big success on Pagan festivals. I see no problem there.
     
    #21 Cassandra, May 12, 2019
    Last edited: May 12, 2019
  2. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Clearly. Still, I invite you to entertain or explain just how Hugo Duncan or Anne Murray are Pagan musicians in any scope of the word, as I have done for several of the songs that you snub your nose at. Especially since some of Hugo's songs are "Dear God" (the Christian god), and "Me & Jesus". Not exactly what I'd call "Pagan music".

    And that's because you're not paying attention to them. You hear the musical genre and shut yourself off, blinding and deafening yourself to the words being sung. History is diverse, and often violent, and early European traditions are no different. Only a fool believes and promotes the depiction of peace-loving, tree-hugging ancestors.

    "My scene", how ridiculous... Need I remind that you're using a heavily Christianized notion in the form of a movie quote as representation of your brand of Paganism.

    Yes, it is quite common in Modern Heathenry. Historical heathen culture as well, as it's not unheard of for Úlfhéðnar or Berserkers to wear the pelts of wolves and bears respectively. Ritualistically, it calls to bear the spirit or essence of the animal, as it has for centuries. For my vestments specifically (yes, vestments. You calling it "my scene" is right on par with calling priests robes their "scene"), I wear wolf, coyote, and fox to honor Loki. In short yes, it is quite personal, not something in part of a "scene".

    Practically, they're warm.

    I don't know. It would all depend on how those adhering to Tengerism (Mongolian Shamanism) themselves identify. More below.

    Problem being that Hindus being referred to as "pagans" by evangelical Abrahamics is in the same scope as calling them atheists, non-believers, etc, or calling atheists "pagans" too. They mean it as a slur, not a religious grouping.

    Paganism is a modern thing. The word is old, and yes everyone knows that it originated as a Roman term for common-folk or people of the land, and then was used derogatorily by Christians. But for those who rally under the Pagan umbrella today, it's taken on a different meaning. Some of that is self-identification, and others are misguided-but-well-meaning outsider applications. Labeling everyone non-Abrahamic as Pagan and the like. Ignorant Christians might call Hindus pagan, but I've spoken with Hindu people (incidentally, at the largest Hindu temple in America, maybe the world,) and they themselves do not identify as Pagan. Neither do the indigenous American tribes. Nor a great many Kemeticists. Or Taoists, Buddhists, Shintoists, etc etc. You might find a Wiccan or Eclectic Pagan who worships Ra, but if most Kemeticists don't identify as Pagan, then it's a bit unfair and arrogant to force them into the umbrella, I think.

    Personally I'm not against calling other cultural polytheistic beliefs Pagan, but the issue for me is what they themselves call their faith first.
     
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  3. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    More information is required before I can reply to this, what are you disputing? What Scientist? What field?

    The points I have given you are widely available and easily supported.
     
  4. Hildeburh

    Hildeburh Member

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    Thumbs up dude.
     
  5. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    I did not say the musicians are Pagan, but the songs are. I showed that the same song was sung by ordinary country folks in a long tradition and is also put on record by modern singers, What I tried to show is that our ancestors tradition is not dead but lives on!

    That is actually how traditions works. Things are passed on to newer generations. this process never stops and it did not stop when Christians started converting our lands. Yes it had a profound influence but it did not wipe out traditions. Pagan Religion is part of that TRADITION and SPIRITUALITY. It is not about beliefs, customs, dress. Those are simply outward things.

    The difference between you and me is that you seem to live in the idea of a broken tradition because you look at outward things (beliefs, customs, clothes, texts) and I live in the idea of an unbroken tradition, because I look at the spiritual side (values, mentality).
     
    #25 Cassandra, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  6. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    <part 2>

    Frankly this kind of revivalism is akin to what American Christians do when they want to revive early Christianity. They create some kind of nonsensical romantic idea that early Christians were Jews, as Jesus was really Jew, and Catholic Church is a Pagan distortion of their beautiful Jewish faith. It is fantasy. Jesus was never considered a Jew in Christianity or by Jews for that matter, nor were the early Christians Jews but ratter converted gentiles (Israelites). For Early Christians the old testament was rather what Jesus came to replace, not continue. Protestantism however increasingly turned Christianity into a pseudo Jewish revival movement by adopting the old testament as part of their beliefs. That is why Jews and Protestant together revived the slave trade according to old testament commandments.
     
    #26 Cassandra, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  7. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    <part 3>

    Hindus are no Pagans, and it would only insult them. To call the ancient Greek Pagans is even more stupid as they were a city civilization much more advanced than the Romans or Jews. Even American Indians do not want to be called "Pagans". To them that is Europeans again trying to impose a format on them.

    The idea that we are generous by granting other cultures a place under the umbrella of Paganism is absurd and comes from a western day and age in which minorities start crying when they feel excluded, but at the same time they demand to be different and not having to adhere to the rules of the majority. It really is product of self-centered individualism, and not social inclusiveness.
     
    #27 Cassandra, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
  8. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    I only want to know what period(s) and tribes/peoples you were referring to here.
    Otherwise you seem to generalize a lot in your latest description of the Germanic people.

    Maybe you do not appreciate the impact the Roman invasions had on the Germanic people. Also slavery is not some precise description of peoples situation or well being. It does not tell anything how people are treated. It can range from being treated as part of the family to worked to death or ritually sacrificed. Rome itself was called the "devourer of people", a giant machine that consumed people at a high rate and continuously needed new workers, as they died off so quickly. No wonder such societies tell their slaves they are so much better off than the free people who are living in constant deprivation.

    You seem to paint a very negative picture that concurs with Roman writers like Tacitus. Many of his negative claims are proven utter lies. For the Romans it was standard policy to paint all other peoples as utter barbarians (even the Greek were barbarians). And even when Tacitus gives praise to Germanic virtues it rather serves as a means to criticize the degeneration his own people. There never were objective accounts in ancient history it always served some purpose.

    The land shortage was in Scandinavia where there is limited arable land. But the fact that these people created a population problem rather tells that were doing well until that point. In the forests they had a rapid rise in population. That is not what you get from dying from hunger, disease and deprivation. Those are some of the nonsense stories of Tacitus. He claims that the Germanics revolted to the Roman empire out of pure desperation. But in fact it was from high confidence. And if Germanics were a head taller than well-fed Romans that does not imply ill-nourishment either. 19the century people on the British countryside were a full head shorter than their peers due to ill-nourishment.

    Tacitus also described how the Germanic tribes had those great festivities and lay drunk all over the place allowing the Roman army to kill all of them, man, woman and child. What the Romans brought was a well organized but very brutal slave system, that was later copied by the elite of their former victims who started colonizing all over the world. The British aristocracy copied it to perfection, and in the process of colonization ruthlessly killed some 50mln people. And American rulers spread the idea they bring the same benevolent rule policing the world, but also leave millions of victims behind.

    Christians are made to believe their faith brought peace and love into the world. Sure, but upholding moral commandments is not the same as upholding high values or more loving behavior, especially if you start to realize the odd way in which Christianity defines values like peace. love, justice, free choice, etc.

    And no, I am not blind to the negative sides of things. But tradition is not about holding on to the negatives but the positives. Nor should we want to make people like the Vikings into our champions, basically they were thugs, best likened to the Hells Angels, Bandido's, "the Pagans" and "the Mongols" today. In Ancient times thugs were the first to expelled. The Greek even institutionalized that in ostracism, people would write the name of the greatest moron on a piece of pottery, and he winner would be expelled. That is rather common in ancient societies, they did not have have a great tolerance for people that misbehaved.

    Not having written morals does not mean being less strict on what is good behavior. On the contrary Mores are much more strict. What they did not care about is ideology. No one was forced to believe in any god(s) or after life etc. But insulting the Gods or ancestors was enough to get you ousted as this brought doom on the rest.

    Contrary to your picture these people generally lived well. It is the constant expansion of the Roman empire that created a lot of tension.
     
    #28 Cassandra, May 17, 2019
    Last edited: May 17, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    "Me & Jesus" is a Pagan son? Okay cassandra...

    Religious garb might be "outward" things, but beliefs and customs... not so much. They are very much a part of Paganism (and indeed, any religion,) and they are the traditions and spiritualities that you seem to view as something different. You seem to hold some flowery, ethereal, non-specific notion of what makes for a religion, when in fact a religion and faith culture - here the various branches of Paganism - is very much tangible. Meaning there is a lot of "outward things" to identify it by. To ignore them is not only ignorant, but grossly foolish.

    Well this is a load of non-applicable nonsense. Jesus was factually a Jew. The early Christians were factually a Jewish cult.

    This only goes to show me that you are not actually reading what I write. That's quite insulting, cassandra, but hardly surprising. Had you actually read what I wrote there, you would find that we're in agreement on calling Hindus "Pagan", so telling me that (as though I was saying they should be) is redundant. The ancient Greeks were called "pagans" in the old form, so that's a term that's applicable, and so far as the new term of Pagan, modern Hellenists (Greek Paganism) identify under that umbrella term, so it is applicable as well.
     
  10. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Yanking back to the actual topic:



    Þat kann ek it ellifta:
    ef ek skal til orrostu
    leiða langvini,
    und randir ek gel,
    en þeir með ríki fara
    heilir hildar til,
    heilir hildi frá,
    koma þeir heilir hvaðan.

    (An eleventh I know, | if needs I must lead
    To the fight my long-loved friends;
    I sing in the shields, | and in strength they go
    Whole to the field of fight,
    Whole from the field of fight,
    And whole they come thence home.) ~Hávamál s.157



    Þat kann ek it fimmta:
    ef ek sé af fári skotinn
    flein í folki vaða,
    fýgr-a hann svá stinnt,
    at ek stöðvig-a-k,
    ef ek hann sjónum of sék.

    (A fifth I know, | if I see from afar
    An arrow fly 'gainst the folk;
    It flies not so swift | that I stop it not,
    If ever my eyes behold it.) ~Hávamál s.151
     
  11. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    "Me and Jesus" was not among the songs I referred to. It was a traditional song: "Come Back Home to Erin". I do not care that the Singer also sings Christian songs. It does not make the song less traditional. Here is another version with other great traditional songs.

    You seem to think more like a purist, but that is fine. It is just not how I see tradition.

    My ancestors did not have "religion" as separate thing, an ideology, but they had tradition. The idea of religion as a separate thing only came about through conversion. Lacking real tradition in such religions the outer things become important. As it is artificial.

    The problem may be that growing up in the US, one is separated from living tradition. Living in Europe, growing up on the countryside I experienced how tradition still lives on. I do not need to dress myself in ancient dress to feel connected to my ancestors traditions.

    Really? You are only a Jew if your mother is Jewish. And to prove that you have to know the whole maternal lineage up to one of the Jewish wives of Jacob. Jacob also created offspring with non-Jewish women and those are Israelites (offspring of Israel/Jacob) but not Jews. Jesus preached for Galileans in the north, an area depopulated by Assyrians and then repopulated by gentiles, that were later converted to Judaism to guard the northern borders. They were theologically deemed to be descendants of Daniel (People of Dan). Even if that were true (highly doubtful), Daniel did not come from a Jewish wife of Jacob but one of her gentile maid servants. For these converted gentiles 10 commandments were more than enough, they did not take to rabbinical law. The bible even mentions a Jewish Rabbi went to the area to teach them Jewish customs and found it to be hopeless.

    When Jesus was asked whether he was the King of Jews, he answered: If these were my people, they would have defended me. So even Jesus denies Jews are his people. There is no lineage evidence in the scripture whatsoever that Jesus is a Jew. Jews never accepted him as one of them either, rather called him the son of a Roman soldier and an adulterous wife. The idea that Jesus is a Jew is of recent origin and only became popular well after WW2 in American Christianity.

    Other good evidence is what the philosopher and last Pagan emperor Julian writes in "Against the Galilaeans" about the Christian sect:
    He was an exceptionally well educated Roman emperor from AD 361 to 363, nephew of Constantine the Great. Do you think new brand American Pastors know better after two thousand years? Such American pastors are making things up as they go along, that is an American tradition that created all kinds of unique Christian sects like Mormons, and Jehovah Witnesses.

    If you have any proof that Jesus was a Jew, I will gladly hear it. An argument like: His mothers name was Mary, and Miriam is a Jewish name is silly. Israelites took on Jewish names, just like Christians do today. It does make you a Jew. Saying he was a Rabbi is equally nonsensical as it only means "teacher". If fact Jesus behaved very atypical for a Jewish Rabbi. Nor did he behave like a Messiah from the point of view of Jewish tradition, as Jews will quickly point out to you.

    I only gave my view here, I did not attack yours.

    For me it feels wrong as Pagan means country dweller and the Hellenes were City dwellers par excellence and all life was in the polis. No, I personally do not want to define our traditions by the insult Christians applied on other traditions.

    I find the whole use of Pagan/Heathen is stupid for pre-Christian traditions. Pre-Christian traditions are traditions in their own right and do not need a derogatory term to put them wrongfully in the same basket. It is a pity that on this forum they are put together under this name. If I wanted to logically group European traditions I would call them pre-Christian traditions or Indo-Aryan/Indo-European Traditions, that is the family that most of them belong to and have most similarity with. If I want to include religions outside of that, maybe Nature based or Dharmic traditions would be a nice positive description.

    But Pagan? To me that is like saying they are all hicks. And that is why I also do not appreciate it when people dress in animal skins as my ancestors were renowned for their colorful beautiful woven clothes that even the poorest people were wearing long before Jesus was born. No I do not want to create the impression they looked like Conan the Barbarian. They were highly intelligent people and technologically advanced. I want to do them them justice and not strengthen deceitful Roman/Cristian stereotypes.

    And ironically the people from the musical groups you present here do not dress like that either. I am sure people would have used animal skins as well but that was not typical for them. Colorful woven woolen clothes were typical for them. For some reason you seem to have liking for things that play into Roman/Christian prejudice about what they called "Pagans", that make them look primitive. that is fine, but I do not share that.
     
    #31 Cassandra, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  12. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Traditional, perhaps, but that does not always mean Pagan. This seems to be the crux of your assertion; that anything tradition-related is Pagan. Despite the fact that every religion has traditions. They are not always one and the same. "Come Back Home to Erin" is a song about Ireland. It has little and less to do with Paganism.

    Yes, they absolutely did. And no, religion as a "separate thing" did not come about through conversion. Christians didn't invent it. Organized and structured religion has been a part of every culture since the dawn of man. Religious days set aside from the "normal" year, times of cultural observance, etc. This is a well-known archaeological fact, and ignoring it in favor of some flowery free-roam fantasy is folly.

    1. America has plenty of tradition. Now you're just being offensive.
    2. You don't know where I grew up. Much of my formative years was not in the US.

    Goody for you. You're not everyone. (Had you read what I wrote, it's not the traditions of my ancestors that my garb honors.)

    And Mary was Jewish. What does this have to do with Pagan music?

    I don't know what bible you read, but his answer to Pilate was "you have said so." But again, highly irrelevant to this topic.

    [quote[I only gave my view here, I did not attack yours.[/quote]
    I didn't say you attacked it (though here you've gotten close to at least mocking and/or dismissing it), I said you're ignoring what I write. A point to which you continually prove.

    It did. Words change. It now means something different, and is held by over one million people (rough estimate) the world over.

    Well, that's you. You're free to call yourself whatever you want. But "your ancestors" are not yours alone (going far enough back,) and a lot of people aren't going to stop using Paganism or Heathenry as terms and religious names just because you don't like it.

    And I have explained to you what my garb means to me. It is not a game, cassandra, it is not cosplay. It has meaning, symbolism, and depth. I'm sorry if you're too blinded by your own rosy biases to see that, and that you think it's all just a bunch of play, but you need to get over yourself. The "beautiful colors" that you moon on about were common wear - today's t-shirts and jeans. What I wear in my picture, and what you're practically mocking here, is ritual wear. It has a time and a place, and is not worn every day.

    Though by the way, they absolutely did wear animal furs. That is fact, not some booga-booga "Christian stereotype."
     
  13. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Steering back:



    Finnish (English)

    Suvetar hyvä emäntä (Suvetar, fine matron)
    nouse harja katsomahan (Arise to see the seeds)
    viitimä emännän vilja (Raise the matron´s corn)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Manutar maan emäntä (Manutar, matron of the earth)
    nostele oras okinen (Lift up the shoots from the ground)
    kannon karvanen ylennä (New shoots from the stumps)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Suvetar hyvä emäntä (Suvetar, fine matron)
    nouse harja katsomahan (Arise to see the seeds)
    viitimä emännän vilja (Raise the matron´s corn)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Manutar maan emäntä (Manutar, matron of the earth)
    nostele oras okinen (Lift up the shoots from the ground)
    kannon karvanen ylennä (New shoots from the stumps)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Syöttele metisin syömin (Feed us with honey-eats)
    juottelle metisin juomin (Give us honey-drink)
    mesiheinin herkuttele (Delicious honey-grass)
    vihannalla mättähällä (On a blossoming knoll)

    Siull on helkiät hopiat (You have shining silver)
    Siull on kullat kuulusammat (You have glistening gold)
    Siull on helkiät hopiat (You have shining silver)
    Siull on kullat kuulusammat (You have glistening gold)

    Suvetar hyvä emäntä (Suvetar, fine matron)
    nouse harja katsomahan (Arise to see the seeds)
    viitimä emännän vilja (Raise the matron´s corn)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Manutar maan emäntä (Manutar, matron of the earth)
    nostele oras okinen (Lift up the shoots from the ground)
    kannon karvanen ylennä (New shoots from the stumps)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Syöttele metisin syömin (Feed us with honey-eats)
    juottelle metisin juomin (Give us honey-drink)
    mesiheinin herkuttele (Delicious honey-grass)
    vihannalla mättähällä (On a blossoming knoll)

    Siull on helkiät hopiat (You have shining silver)
    Siull on kullat kuulusammat (You have glistening gold)
    Siull on helkiät hopiat (You have shining silver)
    Siull on kullat kuulusammat (You have glistening gold)

    nouse jo neitonen mustana mullasta (Rise up, O maiden black from the soil)
    nouse jo neitonen mustana mullasta (Rise up, O maiden black from the soil)

    Akka mantereen alanen (Underground crone)
    vanhin lounnon tyttäristä (Most ancient of Nature´s daughters)
    pane turve tunkomahan (Make the peat shoot forth)
    maa väkevä vääntämähän (And the ground turn over)

    Akka mantereen alanen (Underground crone)
    vanhin lounnon tyttäristä (Most ancient of Nature´s daughters)
    pane turve tunkomahan (Make the peat shoot forth)
    maa väkevä vääntämähän (And the ground turn over)

    Suvetar hyvä emäntä (Suvetar, fine matron)
    nouse harja katsomahan (Arise to see the seeds)
    viitimä emännän vilja (Raise the matron´s corn)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Manutar maan emäntä (Manutar, matron of the earth)
    nostele oras okinen (Lift up the shoots from the ground)
    kannon karvanen ylennä (New shoots from the stumps)
    kun ei tuskihin tulisi (So that we may be spared pain)

    Syöttele metisin syömin (Feed us with honey-eats)
    juottelle metisin juomin (Give us honey-drink)
    mesiheinin herkuttele (Delicious honey-grass)
    vihannalla mättähällä (On a blossoming knoll)

    Siull on helkiät hopiat (You have shining silver)
    Siull on kullat kuulusammat (You have glistening gold)
    Siull on helkiät hopiat (You have shining silver)
    Siull on kullat kuulusammat (You have glistening gold)

    nouse jo neitonen mustana mullasta (Rise up, O maiden black from the soil)
    nouse jo neitonen mustana mullasta (Rise up, O maiden black from the soil)

    Akka mantereen alanen (Underground crone)
    vanhin lounnon tyttäristä (Most ancient of Nature´s daughters)
    pane turve tunkomahan (Make the peat shoot forth)
    maa väkevä vääntämähän (And the ground turn over)

    Akka mantereen alanen (Underground crone)
    vanhin lounnon tyttäristä (Most ancient of Nature´s daughters)
    pane turve tunkomahan (Make the peat shoot forth)
    maa väkevä vääntämähän (And the ground turn over)
     
  14. Cassandra

    Cassandra Active Member

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    You more and more convince me that Paganism is a derogatory term and Neopaganism is more of a modern subculture that does lip-service to my ancestors tradition by cherry picking and mimicking from a far past, but not ordinary culture.

    I was in the mistaken idea that Paganism had to do with European tradition. And for me European tradition was not broken when Christianity imposed its ideological doctrine but simply went on both under and in it.

    So I give examples of music that I feel still represent the unbroken spirit of our people. I personally find that is a more true original spiritual representation then the retro-culture Pagan metal bands represent. I think retro-culture is part of the present time frame and based on sentimentality, a yearning for things gone buy, we see that in all kind of revival products like:
    [​IMG]

    Easily feeling discriminated is also a modern phenomenon that I noticed with the development of new subcultures. It is almost a disease these days. When they meet people that think different or have different taste/values, they are called offensive. It tells me that people are still uncertain about their new identity

    I am not, and contrary to you I do not claim to tell the truth, but only give a personal view. I guess I am not made out to be a fundamentalist with strong convictions.

    That is a claim, not proof
    I only used it as an analogy, you questioned its validity. So I gave you that.

    I was paraphrasing from memory from a translation. To be more precise, John 18:
    Does that sound like, I am a Jew? Or my servants are Jews? I can give you more examples if you like, but let's leave it at that, as it is off topic anyway. If it is important for you to believe Jesus and his servants are Jewish that is fine with me. The purport of my example was to illustrate the idea that neopagan subculture fits in a wider current to redefine very ancient history to modern ideals of minority groups.

    Again you sound really vulnerable. I must excuse myself because I come from a North-European culture where people are extremely direct. We are not busy with trying to avoid hurting each other feelings, but rather say what is on our mind.

    Thoughts like: Might this somehow hurt his feelings, is not something we invest time in. If someone looks ugly we do not make compliments but tell them. And if you come to some places in my country and the waiter has not come to take your order after some time and say: why do I have to wait so long. The answer might be: What is matter with you, are you a moron, can't you see I am busy? Because that also some of the Viking heritage that lives on in some places. I do my best not to offend, but I still do not seem to manage in your case. But I will try harder, but please cut me some slack.

    I guess you are right about that, and this why I feel we should make a clear distinction between continued European tradition and retro-subculture that is neopaganism. So something positive did emerge from our exchanges.

    Well Ragin Pagan, people still wear fur and probably will always do, and hey, Christians also were fur. For someone who does not recognize a song as traditional if it is sung by someone who may be Christian, you are not very consistent.

    Can you reveal something of the depth that is in this garment.
     
    #34 Cassandra, May 18, 2019
    Last edited: May 18, 2019
  15. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

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    Well, that's for you. You clearly take a very rosy approach to history. While some traditions were coopted and other traditional beliefs became "folksy" enough to be viewed as harmless superstition, the pre-Christian beliefs of our ancestors was broken. Paganism (neopaganism, Contemporary/Modern Paganism) is a return to those beliefs, as has been explained here if you would bother to actually read.

    You know, it's interesting cassandra. Many times here you've accused me of being soft-skinned, inconsistent, contradictory, etc etc. We'll get to the others, but here you're being especially thin-skinned and contradictory. Criticism of your music submissions as "Pagan or Wiccan music" is no greater or worse than your criticisms of the bands that I suggested and displayed. And while you go on about "representing the spirit of our people," the bands that I have listed and the songs that I post do exactly that. You just don't like many of them because they're "black metal" and others because they're "superficial" or whatever. Yet the culture is there, the traditions and tales are there, and for many of those bands, a deep and genuine belief in the gods of their pre-Christian ancestors is most certainly there. Your ignorance for what they stand for shows very clearly.

    And now we're bringing up cars?

    Mmm, no. Not quite. Tell me cassandra, are you familiar with hólmganga? From the hednalagen (Pagan law) of 13th Century Sweden:

    "If someone speaks insults to another man, they shall meet where three roads meet. If he who has spoken comes and not the insulted one, then he shall be as he's been called: no right to swear oaths, no right to bear witness, may it concern man or woman.
    If the insulted one comes and not he who has spoken, then he shall cry "Niðingr!" three times and make a mark in the ground, and he is worse who spoke what he dared not keep.
    Now both meet fully armed: if the insulted one falls, the compensation is half a weregild; if he who has spoken falls, insults are the worst, the tongue the head’s bane, he shall lie in a field of no compensation."

    So far as being insulted - insulted, mind you, not discriminated against which is actual social harm against a person - to our ancestors this could carry the price of an armed duel, and consequence of being shunned as niðingr. It was grounds to kill.

    Now, as to the quoted portion of my post that you say is me "feeling discriminated," you're reading into it as you want. I stated a fact - you are being offensive - which does not mean that I am offended. I know myself and my upbringing well enough so that your words are so much ramblings, and have no lasting effect. Though be glad I don't adhere to hednalagen, elsewise I'd hop a flight overseas and we might have us a hólmganga for your barb against my honor.

    Again, simply stating facts. You are ignoring much of what I write, which while this harms me none it only deepens your ignorance. As for "Northern-European culture where people are direct", I again direct you to the above where that directness was literally armed combat duels for mere insults.

    Here you're being contradictory. "I'm a tough viking heritage person! I don't care if you're offended! Cut me some slack?"

    No. If you want slack, look in the dictionary between scorn and syphilis; that's where my slack will be.

    Did I not say that the songs you gave were Traditionals? Ah, that's right, I totally did. See? You're not reading.You even quoted that before going on your rant about how Paganism is still a derogatory term and we're somehow spitting on the traditions and beliefs that we hold dear and, interestingly enough, being very thin-skinned about the whole ordeal.

    I've also said that literally everyone has traditions, so treating that as though it's the only thing that applies when it comes to Paganism is ridiculous. When the OP asked for Pagan and Wiccan music, he is clearly asking for religious music relevant to Paganism, something that you either don't grasp or that you don't want to grasp because you don't like it. Which, it's interesting that on the one hand you'll use Pagan for what you like, but then on the other hand frown and scold and say "Paganism is bad and stupid and you're all playing with Christian stereotypes." Which, by the way, is contradictory and inconsistent.

    I already did this. If you can't be bothered to read, that's not my problem.
     
  16. The Ragin Pagan

    The Ragin Pagan A.K.A. The Kilted Heathen

    Joined:
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    Swinging back again:



    Waarheen leidt de reis, oh zonen van het Noorden (Where does the journey lead to, oh sons of the North)
    Westwaarts over woeste zee op weg naar nieuwe oorden (Westwards over the raging sea on the way to new places)
    Wat zoekt gij over woeste zee zo ver van uwer land (What do you seek over the raging sea so far from your land)
    Wij zoeken naar de nieuwe grond, geleid door godenhand (We’re seeking the new land, lead by the gods’ hand)

    Yngwaz' zonen vaart uit naar de horizon (Yngwaz’ sons sail out to the horizon)
    Ver van ons huis op zoek naar nieuwe grond (Far from our home in quest of new land)

    Waarom verliet g' uw land, oh zonen van het Noorden (Why did you leave your land, oh sons of the North)
    De zee verslond ons huis en haard en oogst ging verloren (The sea devoured our hearth and home, and the harvest got lost)
    Het tij keerde zich tegen u en honger plaagd' uw stam (The flood turned against you and your tribe is famine-stricken)
    Wij voerden uit toen winterkou velen levens nam (We started out after winter’s cold had taken many lives)

    Yngwaz' zonen vaart uit naar de horizon (Yngwaz’ sons sail out to the horizon)
    Ver van ons huis op zoek naar nieuwe grond (Far from our home in quest of new land)

    Nu dwaalt gij rond op woeste zee, o zonen van het tij (Now your wandering around the raging sea, o sons of the flood)
    Daar aan't einder ligt ons doel, de goden staan ons bij (There at the end lies our destination, the gods help us)
    Gij koerst nu westwaarts naar het land, over woeste golven (You’re sailing westwards to the land now, over raging waves)
    Daar bouwen wij ons nieuw bestaan en velen zullen volgen (There we’ll build our new existence, and many will follow)

    Yngwaz' zonen vaart uit naar de horizon (Yngwaz’ sons sail out to the horizon)
    Ver van ons huis op zoek naar nieuwe grond (Far from our home in quest of new land)

    Daar wacht ons de toekomst, daar bouwen wij de hal (A new hall shall arise, oh the future does await us)
    Waar zee geen dreiging vormt of honger heersen zal (No hunger, famine, war, nor bloodshed shall be there to plague us)
    Daar wacht ons de toekomst, daar wacht ons bestaan (There the future awaits us, there our existence awaits us)
    Daar feesten wij als goden en drinken tot wij niet meer staan (There we’ll feast like gods and drink till we drop)

    Yngwaz' zonen vaart uit naar de horizon (Yngwaz’ sons sail out to the horizon)
    Ver van ons huis op zoek naar nieuwe grond (Far from our home in quest of new land)
     
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